FFXI Reasonable Doubt

[Septimus]

No, you are operating on a baseless assumption. You think that because some people knew about it for a long time then SE must have known about it for a long time.

I have already gone over this several times but there is little evidence to support this notion.

1. From the time that the dupe became widespread knowledge to the time of the fix and then the bans was relatively short. I knew about the dupe about 48 hours before it was removed, then the bans came about a month later.

2. Signal to noise ratio. My assumption is that SE gets a lot of things from their online suggestion box, and the amount of crap compared to the amount of useful information is likely very unbalanced. So even if there were random reports of the dupe it doesn't mean that it got through, and even if it got through, if they didn't include some way for SE to figure what it was or how it works so they could fix it then it is still useless information.

I guess defending SE makes me some kind of apologist. I just thinking beating up on a face-less, evil corporation is relatively stupid. They are just people, and they work like most of the adults here. They have lots of priorities, and even if there is a big problem, if it is not presented to them properly or they don't know the extent of the problem the day to day work of any of those people is be far more important than trying to fix a nebulous and 99% of the time irrelevant problem.

There are far better things to beat up SE about. Lack of communication, lack of information about in-game statistics, lack of information about a huge number of useless pieces of gear, lack of information about development, direction of the game, etc. Lack of new end-game content, lack of new middle-level content, lack of any kind of sense about world destroying bosses, lack of any kind of sense for how to put stats on gear. Constant painting themselves into a corner because of gear stats vs. mob stats.

Those are real legitimate complaints. Whining because SE didn't ban people at the pace that you wanted them to be banned? Give me a break. If you don't want to be banned then don't cheat. If you cheat, except the fact that you have a good chance of being banned. Don't complain after the fact.

The nebulous entity "BG" could have done many things differently. "They" could have said "Hey, there is a dupe, we are taking out the details so more people don't do it, but it's out there and SE needs to do something about it." "They" could have flooded SE with bug reports. "They" could have left the details up and told everyone to flood SE with bug reports.

In the end, "BG" is not at fault for the glitch, and they should not be punished for anything. They even have a lot less blame than far more people that got banned and other actions taken against them. But it is down right re-damn-diculous to suggest that deleting a post to hide the dupe is irrelevant to the discussion when "BG" is saying they did nothing wrong.

How does the PR look when you delete threads to hide the fact that you are duping? Not too many ways to spin that really.

BG is a great place, run by great people. But even great people make bad decisions from time to time. Just own up to them and move on. That's all I am saying.

Sorry for the wall of text.

Let me say this as clearly as possible: had LordWafik not removed the threads about duping in Salvage, I would have. Sonomaa would have. Any of the many other mods or admins who did not get anything from the duping glitch would have. Any of the mods who don't even play FFXI any more would have. Lordwafik did it for the wrong reasons, but he did the correct thing in this situation. We could have replaced anything that was removed if we thought that it was done improperly.

It all goes back to the lack of communication between S-E and the player base. If we had an open source of communication with S-E, we could have taken a look at the duping thread, and forwarded it to someone at S-E who could (and would) do something about it. If a mod had deleted the thread, Sono could use his mega admin powers to get it back. If Sono couldn't, Ragnhild could use his super server god status to resurrect it from the dead to send it along. But as it stands, the only communication is one-way from Square in the form of messages on their site, interviews that we wouldn't see without Elmer and Corinth, or angry phone calls from lawyers.

And yet, following the incident, someone posted about the sandworm duping still working, and Sonomaa left it up. Apparently, BG is willing to deal with it. Received any calls or letters from SE?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no.

Everyone already knows about the glitch, since it is the same glitch that they didn't fix from before. The cat is already out of the bag, the genie is already out of the bottle, the milk is already spilt; and it should have been fixed already.

[ringthree]

Lordwafik did it for the wrong reasons, but he did the correct thing in this situation. We could have replaced anything that was removed if we thought that it was done improperly.

That is all I am saying. Until now, there wasn't really a discussion of this. I think that discussion is important for the credibility of you guys. I just got really long winded about it.

That being said, there was poor judgment used. Wafik obviously and he admits it, but also maybe the rules about this kind of situation should be rethought again to see if they are best for the community.

[chiyio]

If it is common knowledge that SE reads these boards, as well as many other boards, wouldn't the proper course of action would be to leave the notification of a glitch being up, but remove details on how to expose said glitch?

I know of one time when SE attempted to take action towards these forums, and that is when Taj posted the GM handbook. Were there any other isolated incidents that invoked SE's aggression, or just that one time?

[MrW]

Why is everyone still pointing fingers? Is this issue ever going to die? Hope so! Mods gave their reasons and non-mods didn't. Too many chiefs and not enough indians in my opinion.

[Starr]

sup guys?

you're banned; you're banned

end of

[Kenji]

Everyone already knows about the glitch, since it is the same glitch that they didn't fix from before. The cat is already out of the bag, the genie is already out of the bottle, the milk is already spilt; and it should have been fixed already.

Not everyone knew the glitch was (possibly) still working. By allowing it to be posted, you're spreading knowledge of it, and thus risking SE's wrath. They could, like get you hauled into court, or destroy your server, or kick your puppy or something.

[Ragns]

The nebulous entity "BG" could have done many things differently. "They" could have said "Hey, there is a dupe, we are taking out the details so more people don't do it, but it's out there and SE needs to do something about it." "They" could have flooded SE with bug reports. "They" could have left the details up and told everyone to flood SE with bug reports.

In the end, "BG" is not at fault for the glitch, and they should not be punished for anything. They even have a lot less blame than far more people that got banned and other actions taken against them. But it is down right re-damn-diculous to suggest that deleting a post to hide the dupe is irrelevant to the discussion when "BG" is saying they did nothing wrong.

How does the PR look when you delete threads to hide the fact that you are duping? Not too many ways to spin that really.

BG is a great place, run by great people. But even great people make bad decisions from time to time. Just own up to them and move on. That's all I am saying.

Why do people always think BG have more powers than the average FFXI player, SE doesn't listen to its fanbase no matter what, even if it comes from BG, allakhazam or ffxiclopedia.

I am a game developer for a competitor of FFXI and trust me we know these exploits months if not years before they get abused publicly, the only thing we care is how to deal with it in the most cost effective way (as in logging all the people that could possibly abuse it).

[LinktheDeme]

Why do people always think BG have more powers than the average FFXI player, SE doesn't listen to its fanbase no matter what, even if it comes from BG, allakhazam or ffxiclopedia.

I am a game developer for a competitor of FFXI and trust me we know these exploits months if not years before they get abused publicly, the only thing we care is how to deal with it in the most cost effective way (as in logging all the people that could possibly abuse it).

What company or not at liability to say?

Also what would your company have done in the situation ban or just remove the items like WOW did?

[Ragns]

What company or not at liability to say?

The big one with 2 letters and it isn't SE.

Also what would your company have done in the situation ban or just remove the items like WOW did?

If money lost from potential pissed customers < money lost from banned accounts then fix the problem somewhere between now and the next 6 months.

[W1z8it]

Since when as an online petition ever made any difference, it's just a last laugh at the pathetic players who can't let go.

Usually you have online petitions for things that make sense, but all you motherfuckers cheated and were banned for a reason, what a fucking waste of an internet webpage.

Move on, get over it.

[LinktheDeme]

The big one with 2 letters and it isn't SE.

the only one that comes to mind is BE for Blizzard Entertainment

edit: wait a minute EA? they have a MMO? > >

[W1z8it]

A friend asked me to post this, so here it is.

Oh I see, that makes sense, so your "friend" can create a nonsense online petition, but is incapable of posting him/herself...The petition failed before it even started, and then it failed again for being an online petition.

What's the point of this thread? It's the same old shit as the LM-17 thread with a new OP and a different title. I think any threads that are related to the LM-17 mass bannings should be locked and the OP banned, this is a troll fest waiting to happen, do I have to put on my troll cap again?

[Ragns]

the only one that comes to mind is BE for Blizzard Entertainment

edit: wait a minute EA? they have a MMO? > >

ea mmo - Google Search

[ringthree]

Why do people always think BG have more powers than the average FFXI player, SE doesn't listen to its fanbase no matter what, even if it comes from BG, allakhazam or ffxiclopedia.

I am a game developer for a competitor of FFXI and trust me we know these exploits months if not years before they get abused publicly, the only thing we care is how to deal with it in the most cost effective way (as in logging all the people that could possibly abuse it).

I don't. Not at all. That is why I put all the "BG" and "they" in quotes. I was making fun of people that thought that there is one monolithic "BG" person that could be responsible for what happened or could have done something.

Its much the same as when people blame "SE" for everything or being paranoid that "SE" was out to get us.

The funny thing is that after criticizing those notions, you then engage in them by making the assumption that your business practices are or should somehow be universal across all companies.

[Ahlah]

Let me say this as clearly as possible: had LordWafik not removed the threads about duping in Salvage, I would have. Sonomaa would have. Any of the many other mods or admins who did not get anything from the duping glitch would have. Any of the mods who don't even play FFXI any more would have. Lordwafik did it for the wrong reasons, but he did the correct thing in this situation. We could have replaced anything that was removed if we thought that it was done improperly.

Everyone already knows about the glitch, since it is the same glitch that they didn't fix from before. The cat is already out of the bag, the genie is already out of the bottle, the milk is already spilt; and it should have been fixed already.

I can't help thinking what could have happened to BG if the original post was left untouched or altered to conceal details of the dup trick.

The information is out for 1-2 years and surprisingly well kept within a small group of players - fewer than 2000 players compared to 500k registered account. Those who know the trick must have done everything they could to hide it. It would have been fixed sooner if the information was posted on every major FFXI forums and multiple GM calls were made. Instead ppl choose to keep the information to themselves thinking it's ok to exploit the trick since SE will never do anything to them.

Even though it's still possible to use the glitch to duplicate sandworm drops, no sane player is going to do it unless they want to get their account banned.

SE is a videogame company not a supreme high court, they could have put their resources to better use if the dup trick was made public sooner and now they are forced to go through the hassle to clean up the mess caused by a small percentage of greedy players. Asking for a fair trial is probably not going to work since it is more likely to cost SE even more time and effort. A more practical solution is for SE to strip all gears (including ra/ex) and remove gil from those who got banned.

[The Blackrose]

The funny thing is that after criticizing those notions, you then engage in them by making the assumption that your business practices are or should somehow be universal across all companies.

While I understand the cut of the jab, I think this is the first time I have seen any MMO let a glitch of this caliber slip by for so long. Even SOE and Verant, back in the day of EverQuest, had knowledge of glitches or dupes that were in the system and were at least in the planning process to fix them.

Tit-for-tat, I do think he has a point in saying that compared to other MMOs, SE let this one stay in the wild for way too long. They could have at least acknowledged that there was an issue and warned that further use will result in a drop of the hammer. I was not surprised by the outcome of SE's decision to swing the hammer, however, considering I've seen worse.

[Ziero]

Actually a petition is a great place to start for a class action lawsuit.

This is, quite possibly, the funniest, and most ridiculous, statement I have ever read in my entire life.

Online petitions do nothing. Never have, never will. And you have no legal recourse to do anything to SE for the loss of an account seeing as it was never yours to start with.

While I understand the cut of the jab, I think this is the first time I have seen any MMO let a glitch of this caliber slip by for so long. Even SOE and Verant, back in the day of EverQuest, had knowledge of glitches or dupes that were in the system and were at least in the planning process to fix them.

Tit-for-tat, I do think he has a point in saying that compared to other MMOs, SE let this one stay in the wild for way too long. They could have at least acknowledged that there was an issue and warned that further use will result in a drop of the hammer. I was not surprised by the outcome of SE's decision to swing the hammer, however, considering I've seen worse.

Assuming SE actually knew about the exploit all this time. It's funny how one second people are bitching at SE for "not knowing their own game" and then the next they're suprised at SE for "not knowing their own game". Either SE is omnipotent, knowing and seeing all that goes on...which would mean they sat and did nothing for two years with this glitch. Or, they're humans, who didn't even know it was going on, with little-to-no help from the community to point out there was even an issue to start with. It can only be one or the other, can't be both.

Seeing as it wasn't until a week or so after this topic came public on Gamefaqs of all places, that something was done, I'm leaning to the fact that I honestly believe SE just didn't know. This wasn't some wide-spread issue that changed the game, and every player in it, in some excessively dramatic way. This was a highly guarded secret that less then 1% of the game's population knew about and actively exploited.

Had this been some negative exploit, where all of a sudden instead of getting triple drops from some NM, people would get nothing, you bet your ass there would have been a 20 page topic on BG bitching about it, and a subsequent maintenance to fix it within days if not sooner. SE is quick to fix most glitches, especially those that the player base make a big fuss over. And as pointed out, the fact that the Sandworm dupe topic is still up shoots holes all over the "SE would sue us if we talked dupes!" crap. How many emails has BG gotten from SE regarding that topic?

I mean seriously, trying to "protect" BG's (the forum, not the LS, which are two completely different entities at this point) "reputation" is laughable seeing as anyone who doesn't visit BG regularly...and many who actually do...already think very little of this place. A single topic about an exploit wouldn't have changed that fact very much.

[Znooby]

While I understand the cut of the jab, I think this is the first time I have seen any MMO let a glitch of this caliber slip by for so long. Even SOE and Verant, back in the day of EverQuest, had knowledge of glitches or dupes that were in the system and were at least in the planning process to fix them.

Tit-for-tat, I do think he has a point in saying that compared to other MMOs, SE let this one stay in the wild for way too long. They could have at least acknowledged that there was an issue and warned that further use will result in a drop of the hammer. I was not surprised by the outcome of SE's decision to swing the hammer, however, considering I've seen worse.

i'm sure they acknowledged it, worked on a way to fix it, then went over the amount of people who abused it, do you think they have 500 employees looking through the amount of items people duped? doubt it, knowing SE? more like 10 or 20 tops.

it's so funny to sit here and read what you people complain about, " waah " it took too long time for them to sort it out and fix it, waaaah. no shit bud, if there is 2000'ish(lets say its 2000 flat to make things easier!) people duping things, it will take a while to go over all the logs in salvage, sandworm bc's, peoples itemID's.

it's ironic to see how people think they manage to get away, just to get a fat cockslap in the face by SE, just to see them whine about it afterwards, good job

[rezn0r]

If money lost from potential pissed customers < money lost from banned accounts then fix the problem somewhere between now and the next 6 months.

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.

Are there a lot of these kinds of accidents?

You wouldn't believe.

Which car company do you work for?

A major one.

[Xno Kappa]

stuff

Okay we're all in agreement the people who exploited this glitch deserved to be ban, those that don't think so simply need to get over it because it's already done.

But for fucks sake can we please stop with this idiotic notion that SE didn't know about the glitch. It was reported to them through the proper channels several times over a 1.5 year period. Either they completely neglected it or there was a break in communication between the GM/STF staff and the developers. Either way there was a failure in management of the company. What BG did or did not has completely nothing to do with this fact.

The logic to argue otherwise is just border-line retarded. Apparently it's possible for SE to not have known even through dozens upon dozens of reports that were submitted through the channels they themselves have set-up, yet it's a conspiracy of epic BG failure for deleting a single thread about the exploit on an unofficial forum that contributed to SE's ignorance.