FFXI Reasonable Doubt

[richardd]

of all the things people did in Diablo 2 (poshacking meph runs, etc) the most game breaking thing was duping and manifesting items. Particularly duping manifests. Luckily Item manifestation isn't even possible within the game mechanics of FFXI, but duping is still the most game breaking thing you can do.

duping salvage items had an impact on the materials used for having them synthed. imperial wootz ingots used to be down to 600k.

they've gone down 150,000 per ingot on odin since the bans and will probably drop more.

item prices on garuda drop more when they're more of a demand for them. hi2u undercuts. Which would mean you guys got MORE bodies to spare ingots on and sellers are trying to get rid of them.

Sure prices in synthesis materials probably fluctuated from time to time, god forbid. But who's to say they would've stayed the same anyway? This exploit has been around for almost 2 years. Ppl didnt start posting about it until 4-5 months ago. Economy isnt any better/worse from these exploits. If anything, they made the woots ingots drop more often. I have friends in SA who upgraded 2 bodies in 1 month when the trick got REALLY popular (dumbasses in Valefor were trying to /sh sell it).

this isnt Diablo 2. ppl here weren't duping hides/cloths/ingots.

There is a bot that cost 3k USD that can outclaim 90% of the time called NASA, i exposed it on Garuda and since than another LS took the initiative to buy it, not that it matters much. SA wasnt much of a King LS anyway. But when you have odin evey 2 weeks and someone is hungry for an Ebody, why waste your time in the aery knowing its going to pop purple to ppl who are going to d/c afterwords?

Duping in Diablo 2 is probably the worst sin. But in FFXI, thats childs play. I would rather play with someone who took avantage of an ingame flaw from the Developer's team than someone who has the ability to run to KA in 30s from Whitegate.

to say its the worst flaw is incredibly close minded.

[EternalSnow]

huh? lol

everyone has a right to their own opinion but to categorize it as the "worst" is just plain dumb. The only way this effects anyone else is through ingot prices on body drops. lol, and that hasn't even been established yet. Its only been like 1 week since it happened. OH LAWD THE GAME IS 10X BETTA NOW, NO MOAR DUPA'S.

gimme a break.

i rather deal with ppl who took advantage of a mistake on SE's part that lead to multiple treasure pools than have to fight an alliance of ppl who red dot after claiming a mob that drops a sword that swings 2-3x that still gets outparsed by everything else.

Im going to tell you why 450 LM-17 ppl still check here to see what SE's word is.

Sure, what we did was wrong. No justifying that in the LEAST. the way they went about handling it was ridiculous. Even ppl who vote for on the bannings agreed on the talk show that giving everyone a temp would've been more fitting. And its true. How is it possible that someone who's gotten an Usu body machas coat/cuffs and a million other things receive a temp, but the guy who went on 1-2 runs and received absolutely nothing get a perm? That's what everyone is so pissed off about. So when we hear ppl say things like "LET EM BE BANNED" its like wtf man lol. I think the e-profiling of some ppl in here surpasses their ego so much that they're afraid to have someone log back in and ruin it for them as far as epeen goes. But dont stereotype. Not everyone who got banned is a "stanislav". I just miss being part of a team.

sorry. I am not sure if you were banned or not. Honestly this is so hard to really say something about. Because I mean they ban rmt and stuff. I mean if people cheated I just don't get how some people can try and blame SE for something that they told you not to keep doing. However, this is something really hard to comment about.

[Juib]

i can't even begin to explain why people who can only "see the light" when they have their characters taken from them (instead of leaving on their own) are incredibly and pathetically sad people

some of us are making a choice whether we play or not

and despite the epiphanies they all seem to have had, they still post here o.o

[richardd]

sorry. I am not sure if you were banned or not. Honestly this is so hard to really say something about. Because I mean they ban rmt and stuff. I mean if people cheated I just don't get how some people can try and blame SE for something that they told you not to keep doing. However, this is something really hard to comment about.

lol np, yes i got banned.

and for the record, us "LM-17's" arent mad at SE. We are mad at who SE hired to handle the situation.

Im going to explain to you my point of view but im going to go from the start.

If ppl never knew how it worked, this is it.

THE TRICK:

you go in with an alliance. You dissolve it by typing it only "/acmd leave". you cant do it from menu or it fucks it up. you have someone open up a chest. you have 3 treasure pools. Now this is where the trick gets to be obvious. other ppl from different pty's can lot the same item because it looks like it would in Dynamis since its an instanced zone. Right? wrong. The pty leaders of the other pty's press Quartermaster and receive all the cells in their inv meanwhile the main/tank pty can lot/pass etc. And all the buffs like cor rolls and bards can hit everyone.

The Japanese were the ones who taught us this over a year ago. The secret got spilled because some ppl tried selling it, etc and word got out fast, and than next thing you know, everyone starts doing it.

The Banning Process:

I have a friend who knows a girl who works on the STF in California and trys to explain in detail why ppl were banned. They classify it in categories. you have your "ring leaders" aka the party leaders who pressed "QM" and you have your receivers, aka the people who received items.

As far as i know, no "ring leader" was temp. they all got a perm. However plenty of "receivers" got the temp. This is where it doesn't make sense. How did they go about deciding this? I cant even confirm this because they're ppl like my friend Descartes who's done this trick alot more than i have and has leader a million times to press QM, (i even remember dual boxing him and doing it) and he didnt even get a warning email.

So pretty much they split it into categories, but did a Russian roulette on all the people who got caught. I had a friend tag along in one of my runs 1-2x and she was in the main party because we needed someone to give away a Macha's coat to. We never did any QM's etc, she never got ANYTHING except cells to unlock her. She got banned, while Goldo who received a multiple pieces of gear got a temp.

Im in the % of the LM 17's who were never pty leaders and only got 1 thing lol. So you can see my frustration. I didnt care about epeen, only person i looked up to is Rukenshin.

My whole beef with the poster above me was that he was saying its the absolute worst sin you can ever commit in FFXI, but im starting to think that the people who jump on that bandwagon never been put in our shoes before and act like we're Al Capone or something. Or they dont want people with relics to outparse them in exp ptys again. As stupid as it sounds, i wouldnt be surprised if that was even a little true.
Personally, i dont care. I have a good reputation, so im not about ruining it even if i already accepted ill probably never play Rich again. But im not as peaceful as Kaeko. If someone says something that close minded, im going to respond lol.

[jimbobsonofgod]

Square don't care about the gear.
Square only cared that mythic weapons were being produced.
Dupers sped up the process

I bet you if nobody duped any alex people would still be duping today.

Then again, no way to win that bet.

[Katarzyna]

...Sure, what we did was wrong. No justifying that in the LEAST. the way they went about handling it was ridiculous. Even ppl who vote for on the bannings agreed on the talk show that giving everyone a temp would've been more fitting. And its true. How is it possible that someone who's gotten an Usu body machas coat/cuffs and a million other things receive a temp, but the guy who went on 1-2 runs and received absolutely nothing get a perm? That's what everyone is so pissed off about.

This statement I completely agree with.

No, I wasn't banned, but let's face it: People who knowingly exploited this time and time again knew it was wrong. I agree with that people who used this exploit should've been banned, whether temp or permanent.

It does seem that in certain cases, SE flipped a coin whether to temp or perm ban people. The guy that went on 1 run and recieved nothing getting a perma ban but the dude walking away with multiple salvage upgrades getting a temp? Seems a little off to me.

Everyone involved should've been banned. The severity of that ban should've been determined by how much they walked away with. Only idiots who knowingly participated and got banned will cry about it. The rest of the people seem to understand their actions.

As far as the actual petition itself goes: "I logged on to my friends account and I got him banned." Well, sucks to be you then. Either shows the writer of the petition to be a coward at the very least, or a very fucked up friend at worst. Also, the fact he this person broke the ToS himself by logging into an account that didn't belong to him, will get this petition absolutely nowhere.

[Zilong]

I would like to start an e-petition to BG mods to start banning people who wouldn't shut the fuck up over LM-17

Who's with me?

[Kaeko]

Having thought about it (and played Diablo II an awful lot), Duping is really pretty bad.

MMOs are about time sinks; I think we all can agree on this. Anything that will significantly reduce the amount of intended time it takes to do something shortens this time sink. Since MMOs are more specifically about time sinks to get items, getting said item via a dupe pretty much destroys the intention and purpose of the MMO (to spend lots of time getting items). Massive duping is a good indication your game is dying, so it's probably better to be over-reactive rather than under-reactive (this a word?) on SE's part.

The simplicity of the duping mechanism itself is irrelevant. People got banned for the NPC buy sell and that was even easier than this one. At the time, I convinced myself that this is just too utterly simplistic and only involved obvious, common actions (/acmd) and that the simplicity of it lessens the crime but really the end result is the same thing.

It's like robbing someone's house - but through an unlocked front door rather than like crawling through a window. It's still stealing even if the house was unlocked. The owner should feel a bit stupid for leaving it unlocked, but the thief is still wrong for acting on temptation. As for myself, I didn't want the items, but wanted to know how the bug worked. That's like breaking into the house, not taking anything, but trying to get a copy of the keys. You can argue that's even worse lol. Obviously breaking-and-entering is a real crime and this is fantasy land, but I think the analogy works.

[Zilong]

Oh come on Kaeko, real life comparison?

You're supposed to be above that ; ;

[Kaeko]

Analogies!

I don't think anything you can do in this game can be compared to something in RL in terms of seriousness unless it involves something like account theft, naked pictures, "SKP" related drama, etc.

[Mifaco]

Anti-signing, enjoy your bans.

[Destinye]

Wow..people still not over this? Jeez you people seriously believe you shouldn't have been banned and only slapped on the wrist?

Get over it..and Day, the JP figured shit out without pretentious people, the game continued to thrive and will continue to thrive without the "forerunners"..I can still see people playing the game and enjoying themselves, you know because it's game. Sorry that the ones that were banned chose the dumbass way to do shit and got banned..

..or wait, chose the "winners" way and got rewarded.

[Day]

Wow..people still not over this? Jeez you people seriously believe you shouldn't have been banned and only slapped on the wrist?

Get over it..and Day, the JP figured shit out without pretentious people, the game continued to thrive and will continue to thrive without the "forerunners"..I can still see people playing the game and enjoying themselves, you know because it's game. Sorry that the ones that were banned chose the dumbass way to do shit and got banned..

..or wait, chose the "winners" way and got rewarded.

Why is that directed towards me?

[Khalil]

Why is that directed towards me?

Well, he did say your name in his post, so I'll go ahead and assume so.

[Day]

Well, he did say your name in his post, so I'll go ahead and assume so.

I asked why. Thanks for the input.

[Destinye]

I asked why. Thanks for the input.

This is why:

GL figuring things out.

You seem to think the people are doomed to figure things out without the banned.

[Day]

oh... lol.

(I was being sarcastic)

[Septimus]

Having thought about it (and played Diablo II an awful lot), Duping is really pretty bad.

MMOs are about time sinks; I think we all can agree on this. Anything that will significantly reduce the amount of intended time it takes to do something shortens this time sink. Since MMOs are more specifically about time sinks to get items, getting said item via a dupe pretty much destroys the intention and purpose of the MMO (to spend lots of time getting items). Massive duping is a good indication your game is dying, so it's probably better to be over-reactive rather than under-reactive (this a word?) on SE's part.

The simplicity of the duping mechanism itself is irrelevant. People got banned for the NPC buy sell and that was even easier than this one. At the time, I convinced myself that this is just too utterly simplistic and only involved obvious, common actions (/acmd) and that the simplicity of it lessens the crime but really the end result is the same thing.

It's like robbing someone's house - but through an unlocked front door rather than like crawling through a window. It's still stealing even if the house was unlocked. The owner should feel a bit stupid for leaving it unlocked, but the thief is still wrong for acting on temptation. As for myself, I didn't want the items, but wanted to know how the bug worked. That's like breaking into the house, not taking anything, but trying to get a copy of the keys. You can argue that's even worse lol. Obviously breaking-and-entering is a real crime and this is fantasy land, but I think the analogy works.

Duping is bad, but so is botting, so is flee hacking, so is pos hacking, so on and so forth. How long did they let flee hacking and pos hacking go without doing a thing about it? Once they did, they didn't go back in their logs to find people who were moving illegally. They still don't do anything about botting. They hunt down gil farmers and sellers, but don't go out of their way to ban gil buyers. The problem isn't the banning, the problem is that they let things go on for so long and then suddenly decide that they are wrong.

To go with your analogy, it would be more akin to Square leaving stuff on the front lawn. For a year and a half people are saying, "hey, people are stealing the stuff you leave on your front lawn, maybe you should keep it in your locked house" as they gleefully skipped off to work. Suddenly a year and a half later it turns out that they had video of everything that was being stolen and had those people arrested. But the fun part is that they still are leaving their stuff on the front lawn. Yes, real life analogies fail, but they can at least we can make them amusing.

[Kerberoz]

If you're going to use real life analogies, it's like complaining to the judge that rape is okay since people get away with murder all the time, and some of the rapists didn't cum so they should only get 3 years. But analogies are stupid as hell.

[drwaffles]

Duping is bad, but so is botting, so is flee hacking, so is pos hacking, so on and so forth. How long did they let flee hacking and pos hacking go without doing a thing about it? Once they did, they didn't go back in their logs to find people who were moving illegally. They still don't do anything about botting. They hunt down gil farmers and sellers, but don't go out of their way to ban gil buyers. The problem isn't the banning, the problem is that they let things go on for so long and then suddenly decide that they are wrong.

Sort of related - I thought it was hilarious that, ten minutes after logging onto my new character, I got an in-game /tell from an acquaintance asking me if I'd like them to come to Gustaberg and set their App on PL mode for me.