FFXI Reasonable Doubt

[Septimus]

Sort of related - I thought it was hilarious that, ten minutes after logging onto my new character, I got an in-game /tell from an acquaintance asking me if I'd like them to come to Gustaberg and set their App on PL mode for me.

It's OK as long as you don't dupe XP rings to do it. Duping is the worst!

[Kaeko]

Duping is bad, but so is botting, so is flee hacking, so is pos hacking, so on and so forth. How long did they let flee hacking and pos hacking go without doing a thing about it? Once they did, they didn't go back in their logs to find people who were moving illegally. They still don't do anything about botting. They hunt down gil farmers and sellers, but don't go out of their way to ban gil buyers. The problem isn't the banning, the problem is that they let things go on for so long and then suddenly decide that they are wrong.

To go with your analogy, it would be more akin to Square leaving stuff on the front lawn. For a year and a half people are saying, "hey, people are stealing the stuff you leave on your front lawn, maybe you should keep it in your locked house" as they gleefully skipped off to work. Suddenly a year and a half later it turns out that they had video of everything that was being stolen and had those people arrested. But the fun part is that they still are leaving their stuff on the front lawn. Yes, real life analogies fail, but they can at least we can make them amusing.

Well like I mentioned, SE should feel at least a bit stupid for "leaving the door open" for so long so to speak. It takes AV about 4 days to be 'fixed' but 2 years to fix a duping scheme. The response to fixing (or in many cases, not fixing) various glitches does seem disproportional at times.

The key for players that breach ToS, which I would venture to say an awful lot of people do whether it be benign stuff like graphic enhanced .DAT mods or more malicious stuff like flee-tool, is to weigh the rewards for doing these things vs. the possible risks of punishment. Based on past precedent, how long it had been out, and the number of players who used it, I just didn't think the risk was too high; back-checking logs for that long a period takes significant man-power, which I felt they just wouldn't do considering all the other issues in FFXI. Obviously they ended up doing that though.

Whether duping is the 'worst' morally is up in the air and a pointless argument in my opinion. What is valuable is to know how SE 'ranks' various ToS breaches; duping obviously ranks high on that list to them and they'll even back-check logs for a year over it. Again, it's about understanding their view on it so you can make the best decisions on when to break ToS. While most stuff like making fancy .DAT mods are pretty benign and I don't think anyone fears being banned over it, if you get into a lot of the higher end glitches like Goblin Footprint or essentially anything AV related, assessing that risk isn't as clear cut.

So yes, SE's response was pretty damn slow and some people think the punishment was severe, but they own your account basically, so it's good to at least know how they will react to various things. For instance, given what has happened, you would have to be crazy to use another dupe method (or in this case, the same, unfixed dupe method) and expect not to get caught. But essentially all other ToS breaches I think most people would agree are as OK as ever punishment-wise.

[Katarzyna]

Stuff

The key for players that breach ToS, which I would venture to say an awful lot of people do whether it be benign stuff like graphic enhanced .DAT mods or more malicious stuff like flee-tool, is to weigh the rewards for doing these things vs. the possible risks of punishment.

more stuff

The hell? I don't think SE gives a shit that I replaced their shitty font with something clearer and better. Or the fact I changed my Noble's Tunic to look like a Manteel, because the Tunic makes my elf look pregnant.

[Kenji]

I think what I find the most amusement in, is the plain old human ability for denial. Ya see, if a bad thing happens, it's human nature to try and twist the viewpoint of it, until it's actually a good thing. "It wasn't a bad thing, no really it wasn't! It was a good thing!"

In this case: "I didn't get banned and lose years of my time because I cheated... no, SE did me a favor and helped me stop a horribly addictive game! I actually thank them for hitting me!"

Here's a newsflash: If it really was addictive, you'd be starting another account/character, or buying another. Real addictions are a bit harder to break.

And I thought we worked past the part where this was all SE's fault for having the glitch there in the first place. Apparently, there are still people in denial about how the software practice actually works. And the fact that the right people at SE probably only knew about the dupe for a couple of months at most. Seriously, when the community goes to great lengths to keep something hidden, don't be surprised if it actually works. "We kept it secret so SE wouldn't know" and "SE knew about it for years" aren't mutually compatible statements.

There seems to be damn few with the balls to take responsibility. "Yeah, I cheated and got whacked for it. I know what I did was wrong. But it's over now, and I'll move on." It's not that hard.

It's quite simple to avoid having one's own account remain secure. I thought this was something easy to know, but I guess not. For those still not in the now, just follow these steps:

1. You be the only person with access to your account
2. Keep your computer secure
3. Don't break the TOS

Just keep this in mind for your next MMO, and you'll go far.

And, oh yeah, e-petitions don't accomplish anything. Except perhaps give the signer a warm, fuzzy feeling. You're better off organizing a large write-in campaign, with actual snail mail letters. But like most e-petitioners, that's too much work, and so opt for the lazy easy pointless route.

[Arthars]

stop bullshitting about how well your doing irl etc man lmao

your banned = your banned

go play hello kitty or something

look, even niki moved on

thats great news really i am happy for him




















i think

[Arthars]

Well like I mentioned, SE should feel at least a bit stupid for "leaving the door open" for so long so to speak. It takes AV about 4 days to be 'fixed' but 2 years to fix a duping scheme. The response to fixing (or in many cases, not fixing) various glitches does seem disproportional at times.

i like you kaeko ^^ but i dont think you can compare the 2 because BG mods(or whoever) delete every duping threads etc before anyone(well the "retarded ones that dont deserve to know") can read and know about it for 1.5 years or so.

whereas AV zerg is fixed fast because of how the "lm-17ed" linkshell post about their mars ring and rapheal rod all over 7 pages in 3 days.

just cant compare haha

like i said, SE now is banning the extremes. DUPING is a serious offence and major cheat in any game.

and yes windower etc debate still holds. it is a breach of TOS BUT not as bad as duping.

and SE did not say they wont do anything YET. one fine day when we all vanish from whitegate due to windower, none of us can really complain.

the dupe ban is just the beginning, i believe SE will have 2nd round, and then proceed to remove "layer by layer"

if they straight ban everyone that uses windower, trust me, FFXI would already be over before they realise

just think about the layers:

-----------------------------
RMTS
-----------------------------
POS hacking/bots/move speed
-----------------------------
3rd party programs(including windower)
-----------------------------

talk about priorities and yet keeping ban control and removing players slowly to maintain "cashbags"
where do you think DUPERS lie in the layer when SE knew about this.

-----------------------------
DUPERS <-- Yep right here
-----------------------------
RMTS
-----------------------------
POS hacking/bots/move speed
-----------------------------
3rd party programs(windower)
-----------------------------

we may get hit, just prepare for it

[Xno Kappa]

lol At some of the names on the list.

[Yugl]

go play hello kitty or something

You mean Tetra Master right?

look, even niki moved on

Watch, he'll be back and bragging about how he rejoined the game on some bought account and pimped his PUP without us even knowing it was him.

[Colenzo]

lock this worthless thread ~_~

[Kuya]

I'll pray for the success of the petition.

[Xno Kappa]

242 N/G Kool-Aid Man N/G N/G N/G View OH YEAH!!!!
182 N/G L. Ron Hubbard N/G N/G N/G View Xenu approves of the bannings.

lmao Got some heavy hitters backing this.

[Septimus]

i like you kaeko ^^ but i dont think you can compare the 2 because BG mods(or whoever) delete every duping threads etc before anyone(well the "retarded ones that dont deserve to know") can read and know about it for 1.5 years or so.

Yes, this whole thing was all BG's fault for deleting threads about exploits. Square has absolutely no responsibility in the process of ensuring that their game runs correctly, especially when multiple players went through the proper channels to make GM calls on many different occasions to inform them about the glitch and how it happened. It is solely the responsibility of the OrderoftheBlueGartr forums, which is not even officially recongnized by Square-Enix or its subsidiaries, to safeguard the proper working order of Final Fantasy XI. The next time that a glitch like this comes to our attention, we will have our expert development team look at the game code and find out how to fix the problem; because it is important that we, an unofficial forum, maintain this game since we are the only people who stand between order and absolute chaos.

Can we seriously retire this broken record that BG linkshell and forum are more culpable for the functionality of this game than the company that makes it?

[drwaffles]

Really isn't worth your time responding to Arthars. Of all the non-sub-20-post retards with a selective reading disorder who would rather spout the same old, tired shit in every post for a month without actually reading other peoples' posts in full and addressing the actual content, he's definitely among the worst.

[ringthree]

Just wanted to respond to Kaeko's notion that duping is an indication of a dying game. Duping is universal and has no indication for any part of the game. FFXI had duping/cheaping issues very early on, as did EQ2 and many other games. In fact, most dupes occur at the beginning of games because there are many glitches that occur that won't be found until people start actually playing the game.

Duping is just duping. Some people will cheat the system if they can whenever they find a way to do it. It has nothing at all to do with the life cycle of a game and has every thing to do with trying to get ahead.

I am not making a "FFXI is not dying" argument, I am just saying that duping, in whatever game or whatever form, is universal and will always be pursued no matter the situation.

[blackmail]

Square has absolutely no responsibility in the process of ensuring that their game runs correctly, especially when multiple players went through the proper channels to make GM calls on many different occasions to inform them about the glitch and how it happened.

Can we seriously retire this broken record that BG linkshell and forum are more culpable for the functionality of this game than the company that makes it?

I have nothing against you, but can we also retire the broken record that "SE is fail" most often dj'd by people still playing the game? It's not my forum but when people whine/bitch so much, I wonder why they don't quit? I guess it's just the American way....

(I'm American).

[The Blackrose]

Can we seriously retire this broken record that BG linkshell and forum are more culpable for the functionality of this game than the company that makes it?

Oh come now, we all know that besides everything that is wrong with the game, BG is responsible for the following: 9/11, 8 years of George W Bush, disco, the assassinations of JFK and MLK, the Illuminati, the fall of Rome, the Crusades, that email from Nigerian royalty sitting in your inbox, all Myspace pages that look like Geocities webpages circa 1995, Ann Coulter, East Coast vs. West Coast, the general decline in morality, the recession, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, anything after season 8 or 9 of The Simpsons, the death of Abe Vigoda and Hello Kitty Online Adventure.

However, BG didn't start the fire.

[Lordwafik]

Oh come now, we all know that besides everything that is wrong with the game, BG is responsible for the following: 9/11, 8 years of George W Bush, disco, the assassinations of JFK and MLK, the Illuminati, the fall of Rome, the Crusades, that email from Nigerian royalty sitting in your inbox, all Myspace pages that look like Geocities webpages circa 1995, Ann Coulter, East Coast vs. West Coast, the general decline in morality, the recession, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, anything after season 8 or 9 of The Simpsons, the death of Abe Vigoda and Hello Kitty Online Adventure.

However, BG didn't start the fire.

How did you do all this and forget that BG also did the Holocaust?

[The Blackrose]

How did you do all this and forget that BG also did the Holocaust?

If that's the case, then BG is responsible for the deaths of Jesus and Muhammed as well.

[MarkM.]

BG is the reason why the economy is so bad today

[MrW]

BG is also the reason I make it through work everyday.