FFXI Reasonable Doubt

[Evildemon]

Based on a bunch of conversations I've had with others, most of us feel pretty lucky to be banned.

Sure, losing the 'time investment' sucks, but I already lost all that time to begin with by playing FFXI--at least we don't have ways to actually play now, which was the only problem in the first place.

If I couldn't have my exact character back, with all the stuff that it did have (I wouldn't take anything better either, because that defeats the purpose of what I did when I played), I wouldn't want to waste my time anymore.

Ergo, SE has prevented everyone from wasting obscene hours on a video game, allowing many, many hopelessly addicted people to get on with life.

Seriously, these bans were a pretty good thing. They've also prevented us from wasting time on a game where, and good luck denying this:

You have the ability to be every class in the game, on one character, and therefore need every piece of gear that's hard to get due to time constraints, and you have to work with people that want all the same stuff you, and it's constant intra-group conflict but the whole premise of the game is to function as a group.

It's such a flawed concept and design in the way in which a lot of the gear is accessible and the amount of people able to play those classes, that it's ridiculous, especially given their statement you have to click on every time you log into the game.


In closing, the last post I'm ever going to make in Advanced, because it really is a waste of my time to post in here:

SE didn't end the game for 550, they either:

A. Ended their hopeless, thought-to-be incurable addiction

or

B. Allowed them to stop playing a very shitty, lazily designed game.


end, if you want me, I'll be sitting in spam forum

Lie I can't kick the addiction i restarted, for lack of something better to do with most of my time for now. Took me over 2 weeks to re-start but i figured it was worth it, if worse comes to worse, I'll give my character to a friend and walk away at the end of this school year depending on what I do, as it gives me slightly more to think about with my future. Regardless I do enjoy playing this game and hitting up with my game friends as some of them have been much better friends than r/l friends only b/c they can't hurt me in the same way.

Although it was kinda cool my first good friend from ffxi tried it with me and got banned with me. I mean it sux we both lost our characters but I wouldn't of had it any other way

[Kenji]

What I am saying is that I am sick of people blaming this forum and my linkshell (because when people blame this forum, they in turn blame my linkshell) for the dupe glitch (it wasn't a hack, since it was all in-game mechanisms) not getting fixed. There are proper channels that people go through to report errors; "post it on BG" is not mentioned anywhere in the game, in game literature, Square's web site, or by the GMs.

Every MMO ends up with a gathering place for information and discussion. It's just human nature; people like one or two spots where they can get the info they need. And people will naturally gather. BG has ended up in that role for FFXI. Your only option to avoid that, is to lock the forums to BG members only.

Anyway, the whole "world Police" gag, while funny, is disingenuous. Nobody is asking you to be police. On the contrary, when you close threads, you are choosing to be police. So, in reality, we're asking you *not* to be police. Just let the duping and exploit notification threads remain. We are all in agreement that SE reads these forums, and apparently it's the right people who are capable of elevating things and getting them fixed.

When you choose to edit threads and remove them, that's when you're being police.

[Yugl]

Every MMO ends up with a gathering place for information and discussion. It's just human nature; people like one or two spots where they can get the info they need. And people will naturally gather. BG has ended up in that role for FFXI. Your only option to avoid that, is to lock the forums to BG members only.

Anyway, the whole "world Police" gag, while funny, is disingenuous. Nobody is asking you to be police. On the contrary, when you close threads, you are choosing to be police. So, in reality, we're asking you *not* to be police. Just let the duping and exploit notification threads remain. We are all in agreement that SE reads these forums, and apparently it's the right people who are capable of elevating things and getting them fixed.

When you choose to edit threads and remove them, that's when you're being police.

Wasn't it argued that the reason they closed the thread was due to potential legal action against BG?

[Thiefami]

meh its Bg's forum they can do what they want, and i disagree its against their policy not the mods policing for SE, but policing according to their own policy

[Evildemon]

lol np, yes i got banned.

and for the record, us "LM-17's" arent mad at SE. We are mad at who SE hired to handle the situation.

Im going to explain to you my point of view but im going to go from the start.

If ppl never knew how it worked, this is it.

THE TRICK:

you go in with an alliance. You dissolve it by typing it only "/acmd leave". you cant do it from menu or it fucks it up. you have someone open up a chest. you have 3 treasure pools. Now this is where the trick gets to be obvious. other ppl from different pty's can lot the same item because it looks like it would in Dynamis since its an instanced zone. Right? wrong. The pty leaders of the other pty's press Quartermaster and receive all the cells in their inv meanwhile the main/tank pty can lot/pass etc. And all the buffs like cor rolls and bards can hit everyone.

The Japanese were the ones who taught us this over a year ago. The secret got spilled because some ppl tried selling it, etc and word got out fast, and than next thing you know, everyone starts doing it.

The Banning Process:

I have a friend who knows a girl who works on the STF in California and trys to explain in detail why ppl were banned. They classify it in categories. you have your "ring leaders" aka the party leaders who pressed "QM" and you have your receivers, aka the people who received items.

As far as i know, no "ring leader" was temp. they all got a perm. However plenty of "receivers" got the temp. This is where it doesn't make sense. How did they go about deciding this? I cant even confirm this because they're ppl like my friend Descartes who's done this trick alot more than i have and has leader a million times to press QM, (i even remember dual boxing him and doing it) and he didnt even get a warning email.

So pretty much they split it into categories, but did a Russian roulette on all the people who got caught. I had a friend tag along in one of my runs 1-2x and she was in the main party because we needed someone to give away a Macha's coat to. We never did any QM's etc, she never got ANYTHING except cells to unlock her. She got banned, while Goldo who received a multiple pieces of gear got a temp.

Im in the % of the LM 17's who were never pty leaders and only got 1 thing lol. So you can see my frustration. I didnt care about epeen, only person i looked up to is Rukenshin.

My whole beef with the poster above me was that he was saying its the absolute worst sin you can ever commit in FFXI, but im starting to think that the people who jump on that bandwagon never been put in our shoes before and act like we're Al Capone or something. Or they dont want people with relics to outparse them in exp ptys again. As stupid as it sounds, i wouldnt be surprised if that was even a little true.
Personally, i dont care. I have a good reputation, so im not about ruining it even if i already accepted ill probably never play Rich again. But im not as peaceful as Kaeko. If someone says something that close minded, im going to respond lol.

I'm sorry Sir, but as much as I do agree with most of your post i do have to call BS on part of how se determined jack. I may have been one of the ring leaders in the "One and Only One Time" as I had talked about it a ton in game and loved the idea of finally getting a piece of salvage gear other than the only 35 i ever got which was legitimately back in june. My group tried the monday night before the Dupe, which only gave us one chance to try it out. However only two of the seven of us got perm banned and no one had received any 25's or 35's as SSR is a jew on drops. The person who taught us how to do it only got temp banned. So if the ring leaders are the one's to be banned then it should of also fallen to him.

Anyway its not the real issue, the issue is how Richardd has mentioned that people who barely did it and did not receive gear received perms is absurd meanwhile people who received tons of god damn gear (know a few still on my server) got away with bloody murder. They really do need to explain why they screw over some players and not others, not that were just banning 500 perm, and 450 temp because we feel like it.

BTW, people talking shit and glad about all the banned players you've been a bunch of pricks from the day you were born and you will be until the day you die. The reason most of you never find out about anything like this and are talking so much trash is because your all bum sore that you didn't get to get in on it and get the gear you much craved for. Yes, go ahead flame me, go for it because if I didn't want flames I wouldn't of replied but let it be known SE can take my character, my billing address, my hopes and dreams for Evildemon and BAN IT ALL TO HELL, BUT THEY CAN NEVER TAKE MY FREEDOMMMMM!!! To be reborn from the Ashes and rise again back on my old server with my old friends and work back towards what I had been trying to accomplish.

Also, the Petition having about 50 posts of LAWL you got banned, F them etc etc was A. the same damn person or B. He had all his friends go sign it.

I may have been banned, i've re-looked over my own life because of it and have found that I can only better manage it because of it so in essence F U but TY at the same time SE gave me a new look on how to go about shaping my future in the real world.

[Kenji]

Wasn't it argued that the reason they closed the thread was due to potential legal action against BG?

Actually, there was a bit of a disconnect. It's in BG policy that they can delete threads that may land them in legal hot water(probably instituted due to posting an internal company document). And one mod, acting on his own, deleted the thread. Turns out it was because said mod was using the dupe trick.

So not as straightforward as you stated (at least according to my understanding).

And also as has been stated, there is a big difference between posting an internal company document, and posting information that the company has already made public, ie, SE made FFXI public and told the fans to figure it out and share it among themselves. They can't complain that's exactly what happens.

At any rate, there is no real legal risk. In the worst case, SE sends a C&D letter saying to stop posting exploits. To it's credit, BG does somewhat mystify *how* an exploit works, which is fine. As long as the knowledge of "Hey, something is wrong here" gets out, and people send the exact details to the GMs.

What happened here, was a combination of:
A. a disconnect between SE's GMs and the exploit notification process
B. The playerbase keeping it as secret as they could

To also cover themselves legally, they could do what what another forum I visit (slashdot) does. They state that each posters comments belong to that poster, and they are not responsible for what is said. Given things that are said in the various sections, someone could sue BG for defamation or libel or something. Stating that they are not responsible, allays them of that.

[richardd]

I'm sorry Sir, but as much as I do agree with most of your post i do have to call BS on part of how se determined jack. I may have been one of the ring leaders in the "One and Only One Time" as I had talked about it a ton in game and loved the idea of finally getting a piece of salvage gear other than the only 35 i ever got which was legitimately back in june.

Oh i agree. But just to re-iterate, this was from her PoV. She's the one that works in the building and not me. So i went by her word. I dont agree with it either which is why half the so called "ring leaders" still didnt get banned lol.

I give up on it, tbh. Im just going to stick with LW's advice and just relax from SE's antics a bit. Im not into the whole RMT scene as much as other people so im not going to buy any replacement accounts or anything (even though i was offered a ton from quitting ppl etc. it wouldn't feel right taking them, even if most were taru mages lol) but for now, im just gonna max and chillax.

[Septimus]

Actually, there was a bit of a disconnect. It's in BG policy that they can delete threads that may land them in legal hot water(probably instituted due to posting an internal company document). And one mod, acting on his own, deleted the thread. Turns out it was because said mod was using the dupe trick.

So not as straightforward as you stated (at least according to my understanding).

And also as has been stated, there is a big difference between posting an internal company document, and posting information that the company has already made public, ie, SE made FFXI public and told the fans to figure it out and share it among themselves. They can't complain that's exactly what happens.

At any rate, there is no real legal risk. In the worst case, SE sends a C&D letter saying to stop posting exploits. To it's credit, BG does somewhat mystify *how* an exploit works, which is fine. As long as the knowledge of "Hey, something is wrong here" gets out, and people send the exact details to the GMs.

What happened here, was a combination of:
A. a disconnect between SE's GMs and the exploit notification process
B. The playerbase keeping it as secret as they could

To also cover themselves legally, they could do what what another forum I visit (slashdot) does. They state that each posters comments belong to that poster, and they are not responsible for what is said. Given things that are said in the various sections, someone could sue BG for defamation or libel or something. Stating that they are not responsible, allays them of that.

And anything that the mod who deleted the post had done could have been undone, the posts that were removed could have been restored. He may have done it for the wrong reasons, but I still believe that removing them was in the best interests of keeping these forums from being threatened with being shut down. (Yet again.)

People love to arm-chair quarterback, but you aren't the ones who get the angry, threatening phone calls from Square's lawyers, Sonomaa does though. Do they ask nicely to remove things? Hell no. How many times does this bear repeating before people finally understand that they have done this several times in the past and it is a headache that we would rather not deal with?

[Ahlah]

I find it difficult to understand why SE would threaten to shut down BG when someone posted the dup glitch. A lot of ppl discuss potential glitch/error on this forum. It's not like ppl trying to sell the trick on BG forum. But I am glad it got removed, 99.99% sure I would have used it and got banned.

[Septimus]

I find it difficult to understand why SE would threaten to shut down BG when someone posted the dup glitch. A lot of ppl discuss potential glitch/error on this forum. It's not like ppl trying to sell the trick on BG forum. But I am glad it got removed, 99.99% sure I would have used it and got banned.

Because it would be spreading the knowledge of the glitch. That they ignored for a year and a half before they decided it was important.

[Katarzyna]

It's not BG's job to fix the game. That's SE's. They failed to do so. BG did the right thing by deleting the topic, for whatever the reason is, because it doesn't sound like the glitch was so hard to recreate. This game could've easily become a Diablo II.

[Ahlah]

It doesn't make any sense, SE repeatedly mention they can't setup official forum because of language barrier and they are monitoring public forum for responses. If this dup trick is posted on Allakhazam or KI does it mean the staff are supposed to remove it as well?

We read all kind of real life scandals and exploits in paper and most of the time the corresponding authorities are forced to take action because the information has gone public. You can't sue a news agent just because they are reporting facts and it's entirely up to the readers whether they want to exploit the information.

[Katarzyna]

It doesn't make any sense, SE repeatedly mention they can't setup official forum because of language barrier and they are monitoring public forum for responses. If this dup trick is posted on Allakhazam or KI does it mean the staff are supposed to remove it as well?

We read all kind of real life scandals and exploits in paper and most of the time the corresponding authorities are forced to take action because the information has gone public. You can't sue a news agent just because they are reporting facts and it's entirely up to the readers whether they want to exploit the information.

The Journalist Shield does not apply to forums dedicated to a video game.

[Ahlah]

I highly doubt SE would have sued BG if the information remain public, in fact they are probably not happy because the information has been out for 1-2 years and players try to hide it so that they can continue to exploit it.

I also find it amusing when ppl claimed they have sent private report to SE and they failed to take any action. Do ppl actually believe SE staff go through all the emails they received everyday?

[ronin sparthos]

And anything that the mod who deleted the post had done could have been undone, the posts that were removed could have been restored. He may have done it for the wrong reasons, but I still believe that removing them was in the best interests of keeping these forums from being threatened with being shut down. (Yet again.)

People love to arm-chair quarterback, but you aren't the ones who get the angry, threatening phone calls from Square's lawyers, Sonomaa does though. Do they ask nicely to remove things? Hell no. How many times does this bear repeating before people finally understand that they have done this several times in the past and it is a headache that we would rather not deal with?

So SE would have threatened to take down the forums if a thread was left up about duping Salvage drops? Did they come after Sonomaa when frogs were broken and 2handed weapons were broken and discussion ensued? I really have no doubt that had a thread been left up here and spread to ZAM and other "sites SE visits when they have nothing better to do" that the punishment would have been less severe if any and it would have been patched faster. The precedent has always been as such.

Its because people covered it up that SE decided to be wrathful with the punishments. Its sorta obvious it was being covered up because mysteriously no forums had intense discussions about it. Now now i know SE probably doesnt even read the discussions but at times they use those "Hey guys, frogs are busted" threads to quickly patch shit that makes our lives harder and covers their own asses.

The mods are free to do as they please but armchair QB or not i think killing the dupe thread is mainly what caused the huge flail response from SE - basically a "Dont fuck with us" response in retaliation for stabbing them in the back. Should they have known? Yeah. But its SE and we all know SE doesn't accept fault.

[Katarzyna]

I also find it amusing when ppl claimed they have sent private report to SE and they failed to take any action. Do ppl actually believe SE staff go through all the emails they received everyday?

That's what part of our monthly fees go towards.

[Evildemon]

Oh i agree. But just to re-iterate, this was from her PoV. She's the one that works in the building and not me. So i went by her word. I dont agree with it either which is why half the so called "ring leaders" still didnt get banned lol.

I give up on it, tbh. Im just going to stick with LW's advice and just relax from SE's antics a bit. Im not into the whole RMT scene as much as other people so im not going to buy any replacement accounts or anything (even though i was offered a ton from quitting ppl etc. it wouldn't feel right taking them, even if most were taru mages lol) but for now, im just gonna max and chillax.

I second the whole no thanks RMT thing which is why I just started start over again Back to good old shiva. I'm mostly just trying to relax, enjoy the game again and see how long it takes me to get comparable to my 3 out of the actual 5 years Evildemon existed.

[Septimus]

So SE would have threatened to take down the forums if a thread was left up about duping Salvage drops? Did they come after Sonomaa when frogs were broken and 2handed weapons were broken and discussion ensued? I really have no doubt that had a thread been left up here and spread to ZAM and other "sites SE visits when they have nothing better to do" that the punishment would have been less severe if any and it would have been patched faster. The precedent has always been as such.

Its because people covered it up that SE decided to be wrathful with the punishments. Its sorta obvious it was being covered up because mysteriously no forums had intense discussions about it. Now now i know SE probably doesnt even read the discussions but at times they use those "Hey guys, frogs are busted" threads to quickly patch shit that makes our lives harder and covers their own asses.

The mods are free to do as they please but armchair QB or not i think killing the dupe thread is mainly what caused the huge flail response from SE - basically a "Dont fuck with us" response in retaliation for stabbing them in the back. Should they have known? Yeah. But its SE and we all know SE doesn't accept fault.

How many people were banned because two-handed weapons were ridiculously overpowered? How many people were banned when frogs were broken? You cannot even begin to compare duping to any of the normal pennyante, pedestrian bugs that happen in the game. People love to go back to these as examples, but they are vastly different situations. I can't think of any glitch that compares to Salvage duping since Banish III, and that still barely compares. (I believe that was the last item that sold higher to NPCs than its purchase price.)

OK, let's say that Square wouldn't have nuked our servers if we left it up. What would have been the story that spread to Zam: "Step-by-step guide to duping in Salvage" or "Asshole elitists in BG condone cheating and will show you how"? I know that most readers don't, but I give a shit about the image of my linkshell and my linkshell's forums. But once more, this is a moot point since Square's lawyers have called us over less severe things than duping.

If tomorrow someone found out a new way to dupe and posted it here, I would still remove the thread and PM the poster to call a GM to report it through the proper channels. Every player determines if they want to risk their character when they find out about dupes, it isn't this forum's job to spread awareness of how to dupe in the hopes that maybe Square will feel like fixing it now instead of a year from now.

[sleekmotorwurkz]

How many people were banned because two-handed weapons were ridiculously overpowered? How many people were banned when frogs were broken? You cannot even begin to compare duping to any of the normal pennyante, pedestrian bugs that happen in the game. People love to go back to these as examples, but they are vastly different situations. I can't think of any glitch that compares to Salvage duping since Banish III, and that still barely compares. (I believe that was the last item that sold higher to NPCs than its purchase price.)

OK, let's say that Square wouldn't have nuked our servers if we left it up. What would have been the story that spread to Zam: "Step-by-step guide to duping in Salvage" or "Asshole elitists in BG condone cheating and will show you how"? I know that most readers don't, but I give a shit about the image of my linkshell and my linkshell's forums. But once more, this is a moot point since Square's lawyers have called us over less severe things than duping.

If tomorrow someone found out a new way to dupe and posted it here, I would still remove the thread and PM the poster to call a GM to report it through the proper channels. Every player determines if they want to risk their character when they find out about dupes, it isn't this forum's job to spread awareness of how to dupe in the hopes that maybe Square will feel like fixing it now instead of a year from now.

Out of curiousity....
If the thread remained here, then spread to alla, do you think they would shut alla down? Or would they just fix it faster? And as far as I know (i dont run a server, but it would make common sense) they would tell you "take it down or we will pursue further action" just like they did with the gm handbook and stuff like that. It was taken down to keep it a secret, pure and simple.

[Katarzyna]

It would never be posted on Alla, and if it were it would've been deleted immediately. Alla is a "premier site" and to keep their status as a "premier site" shit like that couldn't be posted.

So I'm curious now: The blame for all this resides on BG's shoulders for deleting topics, but not SE who never fixed the issue when it was first brought to their attention?

I see nothing much has changed. People are still sucking SE's dick every chance they get.