Tigole moves on

[Plow]

If nobody dies until then you can go for like a full 1-2 minutes after maly enrages with no worries on 10 man. Not sure about 25. He's not like Archavon/Thad/etc that will enrage then instagib the raid.

[fantasticdan]

If nobody dies until then you can go for like a full 1-2 minutes after maly enrages with no worries on 10 man. Not sure about 25. He's not like Archavon/Thad/etc that will enrage then instagib the raid.

How exactly are you surviving him doing 1000% additional damage (IE: one shotting everything) for two full minutes? Whenever I've seen 10 man maly enrage in phase 3, the entire raid is dead within seconds.

[Plow]

flame shield absorbs all damage for a certain amount of time, not a certain amount of damage


keep your energy up to use it at all times, hit it instantly if you see spark show up and gtfo of the way, be prepared to use at least 3 combo points to stay alive through focus


honestly, if the whole raid's dying within seconds of enrage, that explains pretty well why you took that long in the first place

[FailureMidgard]

flame shield absorbs all damage for a certain amount of time, not a certain amount of damage


keep your energy up to use it at all times, hit it instantly if you see spark show up and gtfo of the way, be prepared to use at least 3 combo points to stay alive through focus


honestly, if the whole raid's dying within seconds of enrage, that explains pretty well why you took that long in the first place

Incorrect, Flame Shield is -80% damage taken.

[Plow]

meh, it's still enough to reduce zerked static to ~5k a tick and focus to what, 20k total? enough for the aoe heal to keep you up through it, and you can heal back to full real fast

[FailureMidgard]

meh, it's still enough to reduce zerked static to ~5k a tick and focus to what, 20k total? enough for the aoe heal to keep you up through it, and you can heal back to full real fast

Umm, I dunno exactly how much damage Malygos' rage does, if its a 10x one, then no, the focus will destroy you. If its a 5x one, then the focus with rage/shield is equal to the focus with no rage/no shield (which does what, like 80%ish of a dragon's HP bar?)

[Plow]

I was under the impression it was just double damage.

Anyway, even if it is guaranteed death for whoever gets targeted (and I'm pretty certain I've survived a focus after enrage), there's still at very least 30 seconds or so before everyone in the raid will get hit once, if you spread out when you see enrage coming so as not to eat static.

Point being, I've killed him after enrage on 10 man at least twice, and one of those he was raged for quite a while.

[fantasticdan]

You can't really move out of the way of static, because if he spawns it under you, you're already oneshotted, the best you can do is spread out for a bit and hope whatever DoTs you have up kill him before he kills the people left. I can understand maybe finishing malygos off if he's almost dead when he enrages, but if you're saying you're flying around and fighting him for TWO MINUTES after enrage on 10 man, you're completely full of shit. I can maybe see it happening in 25man, where he'd have more people to get through, but I've never even seen him enrage in 25.

[Plow]

You can't really move out of the way of static, because if he spawns it under you, you're already oneshotted, the best you can do is spread out for a bit and hope whatever DoTs you have up kill him before he kills the people left. I can understand maybe finishing malygos off if he's almost dead when he enrages, but if you're saying you're flying around and fighting him for TWO MINUTES after enrage on 10 man, you're completely full of shit. I can maybe see it happening in 25man, where he'd have more people to get through, but I've never even seen him enrage in 25.

Did you just read my post, reword all of it and add something about me being full of shit?

"You can go for like a full 1-2 minutes" =/= I sat there for exactly 2 minutes after an enrage.

Maybe you just didn't read my last post at all?

[Correction]

You really need Maly down to <600k hitpoints to kill him after an enrage. It's not impossible as long as folks stay spread out and don't stop dpsing him.

[Plow]

Just did poke on 10 man, his enrage doesn't affect static field, only the focus attack. I'm quite certain.

[FailureMidgard]

This is why you can't tune the entry raid too hard:

Heigen recount:
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8167/pugheigan.jpg

Yup, that's me at #9 as a RESTO DRUID throwing moonfires and wraths in between healing the remnants of our raid from the first fast-dance phase.

We had a full-quest-blues enh shaman, and he was doing about 1500-1600 dps with full raid buffs. Decently close to I expected. Also had another resto druid who couldn't find his decurse button, I beat him about 6:1 on Noth dispels.

Naturally, we couldn't beat thaddius--I have no idea how they managed patchwerk--so we didn't get to wipe hilariously on sapphiron or KT. But I think the entry-level raid is tuned right if terrible players can join up and have some success, yet fail in enlightening ways. The ones that care will try to figure out why they're sucking so badly, and get better in the process.

I realize this is kinda old, but well, I had no concrete proof or anything back then...my hunter hit 80 a day ago, I've done like 2 heroics, and have 0 level 80 epics at all. This is on 10man archavon.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9383/ico.th.jpg

And again, I don't think that there should be some huge DPS requirement here, but 1500 is pathetically low and -any- class can pull well over that at 80 with nothing special on their gear. And if someone is too bad with full blues to hit 2k DPS (my gear is actually significantly worse than full 80 blues), I don't see anything wrong with making them get just a little gear before clearing Naxx.

[aurik]

Way to resurrect this topic from the near-dead.

That said, I've had a chance to play my neglected enh.shaman, which at the time was wearing mostly quest-blues with the occasional ilvl 200 blue. Background: some friends were doing a naxx and needed 1 dps, and didn't have a shaman yet, so I came along mainly to provide totems and heroism, and do a bit of dps too.

I believe I had 2 or 3 purples by the time we got to Patchwerk including The Stray which dropped during the run. With a proper rotation I was at 1900 dps, or just under "the bar". Given this experience, and my very large number of experiences with a wide variety of PUG groups (up to 923 emblems of heroism now, vast majority from pug events), I stand by my claim that 2k is a lot to expect from a fresh-80 new-to-raiding player. Especially considering that most new-to-raiding players will not have proper spec, rotation, or gear.

It's not a surprise to me and shouldn't be a surprise to you that using a proper spec and knowing how to execute your rotation while wearing sensible gear will basically get you over the Patchwerk "bar" of 2k.

Blizz blues have recently made a number of posts indicating that Naxx is approximately where they want it, in terms of difficulty.

"Now Naxx was designed to be easy, and Ulduar isn't going to be a lot harder. Hard modes on the bosses though are designed to be very hard. That means being inefficient with mana has to be a liability instead of a tool used to make the content less challenging."

" Q u o t e:
Your old model towards end game was a success, it brought you eleven million players.

Most of whom never had a chance to finish a raid. They didn't get to see some of the best art in the game, hear the unique music or voice over, or in many cases even see the villain at the end of their quest line. From a production POV, instances are very expensive. It seems an odd choice to lavish all that attention on such a tiny percent of the player base.

At the same time, we know there are players who love a challenge and are willing to do almost anything to beat a raid-destroying boss provided they also have a shot at the best loot. They don't want the instances to be over too soon. They like banging their head against the wall.

And so hard modes were born. We tested the water a little with Obsidian Sanctum. We're going full bore with Ulduar."

So basically, Achievements are the new form of progression. It's a carrot model of encouraging progression, instead of the old corpse-run-through-searing-gorge stick model.

[Correction]

Archavon is a terrible metric to measure WotLK progression difficulty by.

[FailureMidgard]

Archavon is a terrible metric to measure WotLK progression difficulty by.

You are terrible at reading, as well as being a terrible troll. I'm not sure how to even respond to you, because there were 0 claims made as to Archavon's place in WotLK progression difficulty. Merely how much DPS should be expected to beat an enrage timer such as Patchwerk.


To Aurik - I'm sorry for bringing back the thread, I made claims before, and merely posted now to back them up because you seemed dismissive of anything without it. No, I am not surprised I can do well, I understand the mechanics. But if I can do 2500 with that gear (oh yea, and Archavon lowers DPS more than Patchwerk does with the stuns/charge+cloud, and lack of full raid buffs due to it being a 10man), then I don't see how 2k is a very high requirement. Thats 2k average per DPS.

And yes, I agree 2k is a lot to expect from what you said, but I don't think it's very much to ask for people to try to strive for it. What Correction still doesn't understand is I'm all for making raids accessible to more people, I am 100% for that, but I think said people should have to at least -try- to get a half decent rotation down (and they should expect hunters to put agility gems in gear, not strength...the hunter that did 950 dps in my archavon had str gems, tank weapons with crusader, a tank ring...). Really, my hunter did 1k dmg with pet autoattack + autoshot alone. If I add in my explosive shot damage, I already pass the 1500 benchmark you are asking. That's ignoring aimed, steady, killshot and serpent sting. That's autoshot and hitting explosive shot once per 6 seconds. I'm not expecting anyone to have a perfect rotation with lock n load (I didn't even have that...I've played a hunter in a few heroics max, and am still getting used to all the timing/etc, I'm definitely not maximizing my explosive shots with lock n load even...I wasn't at a proper range for sniper training for at least half the fight 'cause I flat out forgot about it).

I think people should have to just try a little if they are in full blues. Allowing for shit DPS and auto attack hunters encourages people to continue to do it and not learn/improve at all, which hurts the game as a whole, in the long run. Allowing for easier entry level content, but requiring people to just know a few basics about their class and try to improve (hunters use agility, rogues use agility, warriors use strength...sitting around autoattacking on a hunter is bad...etc) is good and will most definitely help the game as a whole.

[Correction]

And again, I don't think that there should be some huge DPS requirement here, but 1500 is pathetically low and -any- class can pull well over that at 80 with nothing special on their gear. And if someone is too bad with full blues to hit 2k DPS (my gear is actually significantly worse than full 80 blues), I don't see anything wrong with making them get just a little gear before clearing Naxx.

1500 dps is unlikely to kill Thaddius, Sapph or KT. Cry about an encounter that matters.

[FailureMidgard]

1500 dps is unlikely to kill Thaddius, Sapph or KT. Cry about an encounter that matters.

And yet, we're talking about Patchwerk...oh, just did Patchwerk in a 25man with my same lvl 80 blues (and lvl 60 epic gloves people always make fun of!), did 3550.

The discussion was originally about Patchwerks enrage timer being -too- slow, and I said it should be around 5 minutes. I think Thaddius is tuned properly for entry level content. PuGs can kill it, but it takes people not being complete mouth-breathers to do so. That is all I ask for.

[Correction]

You would have Patchwerk become the new Vael if you had your way, and that would accomplish nothing, considering much of his loot pool is shared with much, much easier encounters even in his current state. You'd have to reitemize all of Construct Wing just to make the effort worthwhile.

[aurik]

And yet, we're talking about Patchwerk...oh, just did Patchwerk in a 25man with my same lvl 80 blues (and lvl 60 epic gloves people always make fun of!), did 3550.

Either your spec is unbalanced, or you are lying about your gear or your numbers or you have a perfectly stacked expert raid, 100% uptime on sunder and shit. Ungeared 80s just don't do 3500 on patchwerk. Hell, most GEARED 80s don't do 3500 on patchwerk.

[Plow]

Either your spec is unbalanced, or you are lying about your gear or your numbers or you have a perfectly stacked expert raid, 100% uptime on sunder and shit. Ungeared 80s just don't do 3500 on patchwerk. Hell, most GEARED 80s don't do 3500 on patchwerk.

Uh, I posted a screenshot of me doing 3k on a 5 minute patch as arcane mage with <1600 sp in 10 man. That translates to 3.5k in 25 man easily, let alone in a fast fight, gimme a 2 minute patch in 25 I'll put up 5k+ in full i200 shit.