Tigole moves on

[aurik]

I'll continue to insist that you guys have absolutely no perspective on just what kind of numbers "casual raiders" put up.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9678/archavonwipe.jpg

If Blizzard wants these people to ever experience a raid, throwing them up against a heavy dps check as the first fight in the wing is definitely not the way to teach them, because I guarantee you most of these people will just never join a raid again.

Design raids for *everybody* instead of just the top 5% and all of a sudden it becomes a lot easier to justify spending 80% of your development budget on developing raid content.

[Arvin]

Plow is right, this game is ridiculously easy. It's just a matter of actually KNOWING your class, the proper rotations and having a good perspective on what itemization will make your character perform better. When WOTLK first hit, people in blues and 70 epics were pulling nearly 3-3.5k DPS.

Seriously, a quick trip to EJ will increase your DPS or make you a better healer. Most of those people in that SWS you posted (aurik) probably have no idea what EJ forums are, or they have no clue how to play their class. They probably shouldn't even be raiding if this were the case

[FailureMidgard]

Either your spec is unbalanced, or you are lying about your gear or your numbers or you have a perfectly stacked expert raid, 100% uptime on sunder and shit. Ungeared 80s just don't do 3500 on patchwerk. Hell, most GEARED 80s don't do 3500 on patchwerk.

Eh, I'll buy that Survival hunters are unbalanced at the moment. I am not lying about my gear at all...you can go look at it if you'd like.

The World of Warcraft Armory

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9827/ico2q.th.jpg

It's not even full enchanted and shit because it's on a server apart from my first 2 characters, and I'm being cheap and want a Greatness card, so don't want to waste too much gold on blues (meant to get Icewalker 'cause it's cheap, but didn't want to put the effort into shouting for an enchanter).

As for that 25man, I really wasn't paying attention to buffs/debuffs I had, which I probably should have. People made fun of me when I joined the raid for using lvl 60 gloves...but my other option was lvl 70 pvp gloves, and the 8mana per hit is a pretty decent amount of mana return, and with my int being way too low, I have mana issues currently, so I chose to use them (and still think it is the correct call until I get some decent lvl 80 gloves). I then got 4th on Patchwerk with 3556 DPS...it was a 4 minute kill, I used RF/CotW during Bloodlust. I also coulda done more had I trapped pre-pull, been flasked, etc.

[Edit: The raid was definitely not "stacked and perfect"...a 2 minute kill like my guild can do can inflate #s with 45/120sec uptime on Heroism/Bloodlust...a 4 minute kill in a pug where 3500 is 4th is nowhere near perfect, though I'll admit I've been in worse pugs before.

And again, I'll admit I don't expect every pug to pull 3500 in that gear...I expect them to realize that they need to do more than autoshot, and to have a reason to try to improve their DPS.]

[Correction]

Plow is right, this game is ridiculously easy. It's just a matter of actually KNOWING your class, the proper rotations and having a good perspective on what itemization will make your character perform better. When WOTLK first hit, people in blues and 70 epics were pulling nearly 3-3.5k DPS.

Seriously, a quick trip to EJ will increase your DPS or make you a better healer. Most of those people in that SWS you posted (aurik) probably have no idea what EJ forums are, or they have no clue how to play their class. They probably shouldn't even be raiding if this were the case

I agree with this and I hope Ulduar never accepts such horrible performance as is seen in some of the recounts getting posted.

But what's wrong with an easy Naxx? Good guilds steamrolled this content in beta and big surprise PUGs with 900 dps melee are killing Thaddius these days. But they're taking two nights to do it. And chances are, the 4k dps that carried such players isn't going to carry them much longer if they've got any brains. It's not as if PUGs have no choice (Archavon excepted due to the nature of that instance) but to take complete incompetents along at each reset. The softening of Naxx at 80 put more power into the hands of the players in deciding how to configure their raid. I kind of like that, even if I don't necessarily want to see it continue through Icecrown.

[sb]

I don't really feel a boss within the raid should be it's filter system, that should have been established before entering or gaining access. The way it is right now, anyone who couldn't handle getting a Kara key (back in the day) can come into any raid and waste other people time/gold.

With respect to that, I miss the old keying system. One of it's benefits was it somewhat guarantied that people would pass or at least get close to the dps/heal/tank check needed to get function in raid (and heroic) content.

[Plow]

I'll continue to insist that you guys have absolutely no perspective on just what kind of numbers "casual raiders" put up.

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9678/archavonwipe.jpg

If Blizzard wants these people to ever experience a raid, throwing them up against a heavy dps check as the first fight in the wing is definitely not the way to teach them, because I guarantee you most of these people will just never join a raid again.

Design raids for *everybody* instead of just the top 5% and all of a sudden it becomes a lot easier to justify spending 80% of your development budget on developing raid content.

Clearly, people wiping on Archavon are putting in any fucking effort whatsoever.


Just FYI, you can't find a blackrock Archavon 25 man pug anymore. Only 20.

[FailureMidgard]

I agree with this and I hope Ulduar never accepts such horrible performance as is seen in some of the recounts getting posted.

But what's wrong with an easy Naxx? Good guilds steamrolled this content in beta and big surprise PUGs with 900 dps melee are killing Thaddius these days. But they're taking two nights to do it. And chances are, the 4k dps that carried such players isn't going to carry them much longer if they've got any brains. It's not as if PUGs have no choice (Archavon excepted due to the nature of that instance) but to take complete incompetents along at each reset. The softening of Naxx at 80 put more power into the hands of the players in deciding how to configure their raid. I kind of like that, even if I don't necessarily want to see it continue through Icecrown.

Nothing is wrong with an easier Naxx, but entry level raids should be there to help teach all these new players how to raid - not to give them free purples. I'm sure that right now, there's a ton more people raiding than in the past - that is a good thing. It's healthy for the game. But if these players are not learning very basic shit in entry level raids that are supposed to teach them that, then if/when the difficulty begins to ramp up, those players are just going to fail miserably, complain about things being too difficult that really aren't, etc. In reality, they should have been having a little trouble early on, in entry level raids. Not a lot of trouble, unable to do the content. Just enough trouble to make them sit down, think for 5 minutes, and have to actually try to play intelligently. In any situation, good players can still carry bad ones - there is no real way to fix that, but I don't think a raid full of nothing but terrible players that can't even just hit a couple of abilities on cooldown should be able to clear Naxx, -especially- if it's considered entry-level. Just like a raid where 15 of the 25 can't run behind a block on Sapphiron shouldn't be able to kill Sapphiron. Expecting an average of ~2k DPS per DPS person is not the least bit unreasonable...Thaddius expects like ~2.2k pre dmgbuff, and in my opinion, is at the correct difficulty for an entry level raid encounter. A ton of pugs can kill it, and the really really terrible ones will fail. Some will try to improve, and try again to kill it, and will succeed in the end. That is a good thing. That is what raiding is about. The terribles that fail over and over, well, I don't think the encounter is too hard, and if those people won't go learn how to play their classes just a little, they deserve to be failing. I'd much prefer they went and learned their shit though.

[aurik]

The thing is, entry level raiders are having plenty of trouble in Naxx. Probably half of Naxx pugs that I've done have not completed. One I went to didn't even manage to kill Anub'Rekhan. Further, once Ulduar is out and competent players aren't showing up to carry entry level raiders through, Naxx pugs are going to be even worse.

Case in point, one of my co-workers--who is really a true casual raider these days, the last time he raided was Zul'Gurub in classic--spent an hour with his guild trying to down Patchwerk last week. They finally managed it, and then started wiping to Grobbulus and then called it for the night. I believe they spent 3 evenings on Naxx, and didn't even get to see Thaddius.

There's nothing wrong with "giving away free purples"--it's just pixel items, after all. It's a good way to encourage people that would otherwise just wash right out of Naxx if the first boss was complex or hard. And, at least in 10-man, the purps that drop aren't any better than one could get out of 5-man heroics. I think concern about "free purps" basically stems from people being unconsciously upset that superior performance is not being rewarded at a higher level than people who are struggling to break 2k. Fair enough. Once a new harder tier of content is available, that will change.

[Ishido]

It's good if the worst raiders are having troubles with Naxx. That means the tuning level is "appropriate," despite being retardedly easy for anyone who actually knows how to play the game. I'm sure the people who struggle against these bosses get a lot more satisfaction out of downing them than the top tier raiders who consider it a joke. Like Arv said, it's not a matter of being good or having the best gear that is creating a 4000 DPS gap between the lowest and highest, it's a matter of knowing how to play your class. Ferals mangle spamming, or hunters spamming aimed shot when it was still a cast time, those are the things that make abysmal DPS possible.

That said, Ulduar needs to be harder. It's the definition of progression, if it's as easy as Naxx is after you upgrade your gear then it will truly be pointless.

I'm hoping and expecting hard modes to be like Sarth though. Without any drakes it's the easiest encounter in the game, with all drakes it's the hardest. Steep difficulty increases are good when it's an optional thing. Also gear needs to be one of the driving factors for hard mode bosses. That is one flaw I find with Sarth 3D, there is very little reason to do it after the first time when 2D gives the same loot without the shitty mount, and is vastly easier.

[aurik]

It's good if the worst raiders are having troubles with Naxx. That means the tuning level is "appropriate," despite being retardedly easy for anyone who actually knows how to play the game. ...

That said, Ulduar needs to be harder. It's the definition of progression, if it's as easy as Naxx is after you upgrade your gear then it will truly be pointless.

I'm hoping and expecting hard modes to be like Sarth though. Without any drakes it's the easiest encounter in the game, with all drakes it's the hardest. Steep difficulty increases are good when it's an optional thing. Also gear needs to be one of the driving factors for hard mode bosses. That is one flaw I find with Sarth 3D, there is very little reason to do it after the first time when 2D gives the same loot without the shitty mount, and is vastly easier.

I pretty much agree with everything here.

[Correction]

I'd much prefer they went and learned their shit though.

So would I, but you can't force that with game design. Shitty players were shitty when raids were 40-man and the hardest thing in the game was Onyxia, and they remained shitty until after Kil'Jaeden died. Having hard raids didn't make such players better. It's up to the community to either force these players out or shame them into actually improving their play. That's what the current naxx25 pug situation is empowering. That's what I like most.

[FailureMidgard]

So would I, but you can't force that with game design. Shitty players were shitty when raids were 40-man and the hardest thing in the game was Onyxia, and they remained shitty until after Kil'Jaeden died. Having hard raids didn't make such players better. It's up to the community to either force these players out or shame them into actually improving their play. That's what the current naxx25 pug situation is empowering. That's what I like most.

Based on Aurik's experiences, and mine, the community isn't doing much for that...a select few "elitist assholes" that run some pugs, do it. They won't give loot to terribles/etc...but I go on pugs, and watch people that get outdmged by tanks get to stay in the entire run, win the roll on a KT weapon, etc.

[Boyiee]

Idk, I love the fact that I can pug these instances and I hope that Ulduar is the same.

I was hardcore 5-7days a week of raiding in sunwell before I gave up on raiding. Now I'm with a few friends, and my sister, and we casually do 10mans. Most of us have school and work and can't do much more, but some of us that have the time are able to pug 25's and it's nice to be able to get the gear from it and still see the entire instance.

It's win/win. My sister gets to see the game in it's entirety, and I can be geared out if I want to pug something. Naxx is easy as fuck, but I like the Idea of my alt being able to jump into 25mans pretty much the week it hits 80 so that it's geared enough to be our main OT for Ulduar.

There are so many people that failboat arch still, and naxx still, probably 50% of the playerbase lol. I think it's a great thing that you went from 1% of the playerbase doing the content, to at least as high as 50% if not far more.

Logically, they have a reason to produce MORE content, BETTER content, at a faster rate then ever before. If you go from 1million people to 11million people able to see the content that you spent a huge budget on, then there is reason to put more and more out there then we have ever had before. I hope Ulduar proves that, and we get another raid instance not long after.

And wtf at hunter doing 3500dps in patchwerk as a fresh 80. Thats bullshit and overpowered. My Rogue is almost in full25man gear only missing KT/Maly stuff and a pair of boots, and I'm under 4500 still. You really expect people to produce 2k at 80? That is utterly bogus. You have no idea of the difference in skill and effort put into this game from someone that plays everyday hardcore and knows the game, to someone that has his first level 80 and is killing his first bosses. There are rogues in 25man gear using the wrong poisons still.

[underscore]

Hunter is just an extreme example of the point he is trying to prove because they require very little to be hit capped(5% if you pick up the 3%hit tier1 talent), don't need expertise, and aren't affected by glancing blows.

The main issue is that blizzard has nothing implemented in-game to guide players to that end. If they're going to try to open up raiding content to a broad player base they should at least educate them about certain game mechanics. For example, how would a caster know that they need 17% hit against ??? bosses not to miss them?

[Dezzimal]

I go on pugs, and watch people that get outdmged by tanks get to stay in the entire run, win the roll on a KT weapon, etc.

My guild does alt 25 mans paired with another guild, free roll main spec before off spec etc. We gave two betrayers to the same void-zone-humping warrior two weeks in a row because thats how the rolls fell. He beat ~6 other people both times incl my DK :/

People producing less than 2k DPS as a fresh 80 is usually their own ignorance holding them back. There exists a proper set of quest greens interlaced with dungeon blues that will produce 2k from any class.

[FailureMidgard]

Idk, I love the fact that I can pug these instances and I hope that Ulduar is the same.

I was hardcore 5-7days a week of raiding in sunwell before I gave up on raiding. Now I'm with a few friends, and my sister, and we casually do 10mans. Most of us have school and work and can't do much more, but some of us that have the time are able to pug 25's and it's nice to be able to get the gear from it and still see the entire instance.

It's win/win. My sister gets to see the game in it's entirety, and I can be geared out if I want to pug something. Naxx is easy as fuck, but I like the Idea of my alt being able to jump into 25mans pretty much the week it hits 80 so that it's geared enough to be our main OT for Ulduar.

There are so many people that failboat arch still, and naxx still, probably 50% of the playerbase lol. I think it's a great thing that you went from 1% of the playerbase doing the content, to at least as high as 50% if not far more.

Logically, they have a reason to produce MORE content, BETTER content, at a faster rate then ever before. If you go from 1million people to 11million people able to see the content that you spent a huge budget on, then there is reason to put more and more out there then we have ever had before. I hope Ulduar proves that, and we get another raid instance not long after.

And wtf at hunter doing 3500dps in patchwerk as a fresh 80. Thats bullshit and overpowered. My Rogue is almost in full25man gear only missing KT/Maly stuff and a pair of boots, and I'm under 4500 still. You really expect people to produce 2k at 80? That is utterly bogus. You have no idea of the difference in skill and effort put into this game from someone that plays everyday hardcore and knows the game, to someone that has his first level 80 and is killing his first bosses. There are rogues in 25man gear using the wrong poisons still.

1. A rogue friend did 2k within a few days of hitting 80.
2. I don't play WoW every day, I play FFXI every day. I play WoW once a week.
3. My rogue friend is a true casual, and has played wow 3 times for 3 months at a time, and will probably quit again soon.
4. Another friend was neck and neck with me in a 10man, as a fresh 80 lock, but wasn't in said Patchwerk-25.
5. See Dezzimal's post.
6. I want more content, for everyone to see. I would like to see content slowly get harder, however, and if people can't figure out that they need to move out of a void zone, that they need to use agility and not strength on a hunter, and some semi half-basic DPS rotation, then there isn't a lot of hope in my mind.

[Tomino]

just a question but why do you insist so much on the topic of balance/game experience that's PUG related?

I think the game IS about being part of a guild and having friends and be social so I dont see why Blizzard should focus so much into PUG balance.
PUG runs can be a terrible experience or grant you some purple, can team you up with a bunch of 13yrs old idiots or be blessed by some competent leader but still.. they are nothing but random and do not represent, imho, the core of an MMORPG. Tho it's nice you can PUG things, anyone interested in endgame should be properly encouraged to join a guild (which would also inform you about your class, via CMs)

[Dezzimal]

Its a balance between the two, blizzard wants to cater to as many people as possible. People like being part of a guild, people also like being able to do stuff when their whole crew isn't online.

[Ezek]

lolWoW. And people still wonder why I quit that terrible game when I was in the top US Horde guild for so long. I just checked our forums and Ulduar STILL ISN'T OUT HOLY SHIT. Nothing like sitting with your thumb up your ass since November waiting for something to do. The game was never really hard, it just required common sense. Unfortunately, after playing so many MMO's in endgame situations I've found that the majority of the internet's population does not, in fact, have any common sense. You have idiots in WoW that don't know how to even gem/enchant their gear correctly (I don't mind this as much, the recruitment forums are a daily source of entertainment for me) and retards in FFXI that still TP in STR gear after 7 years.

The main issue is that blizzard has nothing implemented in-game to guide players to that end. If they're going to try to open up raiding content to a broad player base they should at least educate them about certain game mechanics. For example, how would a caster know that they need 17% hit against ??? bosses not to miss them?

Perhaps they could go out and use this really useful tool called Google? I mean, by common sense if I were resisting/partials a shitload during a boss fight I would probably Google something to the effect of "WoW caster spells resisting " and holy shit look at, a WoWiki entry with caster spellhit!

But then again this is the internet, you have to lower your expectations.

To be completely and 100% honest, I could give two shits if casuals get free purples. The only thing I cared about is content. If you're going to put out braindead easy raid instances then at least throw the hardcore raiders a raid instance or boss that takes longer than a day of practicing to kill (I'm looking at you 3drake Sarth and Malygos). We're now approaching month 5 since we cleared all WoTLK content - I'm sure even casual raiders have begun to get bored at this point.

I usually don't post this kind of bullshit but boredom at work does odd things to you, my apologies.

[Correction]

bawwww my internet hobby doesn't take up enough of my time bawwww

I could swear I was over this with another poster before...