Tigole moves on

[Plow]

I think I just object to 'cartoony' because it can mean too many things. Vivid color palette? Distorted proportions? Help me out here.

No attempt whatsoever at "realism" in character designs.


Look at a WoW character's face, it's not a "pretty" 3-d rendering of a model made to look like *A* (not the) real world. It looks like a cartoon.

[Correction]

Also, name one raid mechanic in TBC or WotLK that wasn't in original Naxx.

Take off them rose-tinted lenses. Raid mechanics have evolved past Naxx. They may be similar in a few ways but they're their own thing.

Gruul Stone+Shatter.

Magtheridon Banish.

Vashj cores.

Kael'thas legendaries.

Kil'Jaeden drakes were pretty unique to that encounter.

[Plow]

Gruul Stone+Shatter.

Detonate Mana

Magtheridon Banish.

You mean channelers? I.E. Intensified Kel'T phase one?

Vashj cores.

I guess if looting and clicking something to kill adds instead of just killing them is "creative," sure.

Kael'thas legendaries.

See: Vashj. Ok, so I have to loot that guy and equip a special weapon that procs what I need. That's complex...

Kil'Jaeden drakes were pretty unique to that encounter.

Unique abilities, sure, controlling mobs necessary to fight the boss is nothing new, wasn't even all that new with Razuv. Pretty sure we've been doing that since like SM ;p


Seriously though, they've been recycling hard core for a long time, and gotten worse about it recently.


Have you been in a WotLK heroic? lol

[The Blackrose]

He's just plain a fucking douchebag, he honestly believes pve'ers are flat out better players than pvpers, he has blatant favoritism towards certain classes, and is a complete asshat about certain things just like any typical retarded MMO player.

I'm not surprised considering he used to lead one of the biggest PvE guilds in EverQuest. Considering he (and Furor) rode that boat onto Blizzard's development team...

[Plow]

I'm not surprised considering he used to lead one of the biggest PvE guilds in EverQuest. Considering he (and Furor) rode that boat onto Blizzard's development team...

Don't even get me started on Furor, he's made it clear he hates Paladins since before WoW was a concept.

[aurik]

Gruul shatter = Detonate Mana

That's kind of a stretch. With this kind of broad equality of mechanics, you can summarize pretty much all of WoW as:

1) don't stand in the bad places
2) avoid sources of AoE damage, whether they be other players, boss minions, or simply targeted effects
3) keep the raid healthy
4) make sure adds don't wipe the raid
5) kill the boss before he enrages

I think for the most part "classic days nostalgia" is a manifestation of people who actually enjoyed the grinding that went into raiding back then. Stacking elixirs and world buffs, just to down a single boss is extremely tedious. Hell, back in classic naxx you would do a couple of practice runs, then run out and get the dragon head / zandalar buffs, fully world-buff, and return to the raid instance just to take down a single boss. And the encounters were tuned with this min-maxing in mind, so to do otherwise would require the group to already be well overgeared for the encounter.

Since then, they've progressively reduced the annoying requirements for raiding: elixir classes and flasks persevering through death, potion sickness to prevent supplemental mp5 through chainpotting, removing class stacking strategies by making buffs raid-wide and overlapping instead of stacking, etc.

To some people, it seems like they're making raiding "easier" by doing so. But really, it's a mission statement: that raiding should be about execution and gear, not about blowing consumables.

[Correction]

Ok, so I have to loot that guy and equip a special weapon that procs what I need. That's complex...

It also wasn't in Naxx.

I'm also not sure why you think it can't share one thing in common with what you saw in Naxx in order to be acceptable to your raiding tastes.

Have you been in a WotLK heroic? lol

Yes, all of them. Multiple times. What the fuck is your problem? Have you ever been in a forum discussion that didn't turn into a 'MY DICK IS BIGGER' contest before?

[Saga]

lol Plow, and what, every encounter in old Naxx was complex? Grind out FR gear for the entire raid over weeks and slap it on, avoid blizzards and stand behind iceblocks on Saph. Just because iceblocks could be glitchy shouldn't automatically make it OMG COMPLEX AND WELL-TUNED. Those fights were well-tuned for other reasons. I'll give you bosses like Loatheb and 4H were some of the most exciting and intense fights in the instance, but can you really say Archi in TBC wasn't relatively original? Maybe not doomfire, but doomfire mechanics, or grip of the legion, or soul charges.

I guess my point is chill the fuck out and have fun dude, it's a game. No one cares if you nostalgia'd all over your pants.

[Koul]

I think they also had to cater to the growing population of WoW

if they kept shit the way it was at 60, do you think as many people would still be playing? Honestly, I probably wouldn't. I'm sure 40mans are fun and for all we know they might make Arthas a 40man raid. I actually hope they do because it's fucking Arthas and he needs to be the AV of WoW imo.

but yeah. It's either piss off the old school people who liked the vanilla wow system or piss off all the casual players. I might be wrong but there's probably more casual players soooooooo yeah.

also, I love the cartooney graphics but that's probably cause I'm an animefag. Warhammers graphics are okay but... everytime I see graphics like AoC, I see Goldeneye 64

[Plow]

Wow, you people are completely misunderstanding me. I'm not "nostalgic" at all-- I was busy with the pvp grind pre-tbc. I'm just pointing out that Tigole hasn't done a particularly great job of bringing encounters to a "new level" since original naxx. And I don't mean difficulty, I mean conceptually.

That's kind of a stretch. With this kind of broad equality of mechanics,

Not in the least. The mechanics of the boss fight are spread the fuck out and don't be retarded, stay 20 yards apart during gruul most of the time vs stay 10+ yards apart during kt all the time.

you can summarize pretty much all of WoW as:

1) don't stand in the bad places
2) avoid sources of AoE damage, whether they be other players, boss minions, or simply targeted effects
3) keep the raid healthy
4) make sure adds don't wipe the raid
5) kill the boss before he enrages

Unfortunately, that's pretty much true. It seems the most creative they can get these days is having us fight with pets, a la Maly, Razuv, etc. But, with things like C'Thun, Razuv, Loatheb, KT, Thaddius, Grobb, 4h, the list goes on when looking at the best of the old raids, they brought some very new and original (as original as you can be in an mmo) concepts to the genre.

In response to the rest of what you said:

Honestly before some of those fights, the grind was basically what defined MMO's. Now that so many people have spent considerable time at max level in various games, original Naxx and AQ have basically defined the new focus of mmo's, getting big groups of people together to beat complex bosses. It's that focus that's enabled them to move away from forcing us into the consumable, rep, etc grinds.

It also wasn't in Naxx.

I'm also not sure why you think it can't share one thing in common with what you saw in Naxx in order to be acceptable to your raiding tastes.

I'm just saying, where are all the brilliant ideas since back then? Sure, there's a few new things to do, but there's really been no new "concepts" of how to approach a boss. Where is *our* opportunity for creativity if the "hardest" bosses in the game are always going to have specific positioning requirements you must conform to in order to succeed? What am I going to differently than the next guy when tanking maly, bring more dk's to ignore positioning and just death grip all the sparks? woo...

Yes, all of them. Multiple times. What the fuck is your problem? Have you ever been in a forum discussion that didn't turn into a 'MY DICK IS BIGGER' contest before?

Internet & sarcasm etc. Point being every heroic in WotLK is a mini version of a raid. Even far and away the most creative heroic is a tank & spank, followed by "I wish I were C'thun" guy, human version of sapph, then a maly warm-up fight.

The next most "original" fight in any of the heroics turns the whole pt into Understudies.

I guess the "spam jump constantly" thing is new, lol.



Anyway, at this point Tigole's "legacy" as a lead designer basically hinges on Ulduar. If, in the end, Naxxramas is his shining moment, he's a guy who helped come up with one of the best events in any mmo, ever, and helped move the most successful mmo ever along decently well, albeit with an innumerable number of really simple issues. And was a douchebag about said issues.

If, however, Ulduar is able to outshine Naxx... well, WoW will pretty much have established itself as the best multiplayer role-playing experience out there, and he'll get a pretty huge chunk of the credit. So, I suppose we'll see fairly soon.


Also, sapph was specifically designed not to be "creative," but to be simply a direct test of your healers. It's really that simple, and damn is it designed well with that in mind.

[Bweigelt]

Wow, you people are completely misunderstanding me. I'm not "nostalgic" at all-- I was busy with the pvp grind pre-tbc. I'm just pointing out that Tigole hasn't done a particularly great job of bringing encounters to a "new level" since original naxx. And I don't mean difficulty, I mean conceptually.




Not in the least. The mechanics of the boss fight are spread the fuck out and don't be retarded, stay 20 yards apart during gruul most of the time vs stay 10+ yards apart during kt all the time.



Unfortunately, that's pretty much true. It seems the most creative they can get these days is having us fight with pets, a la Maly, Razuv, etc. But, with things like C'Thun, Razuv, Loatheb, KT, Thaddius, Grobb, 4h, the list goes on when looking at the best of the old raids, they brought some very new and original (as original as you can be in an mmo) concepts to the genre.

In response to the rest of what you said:

Honestly before some of those fights, the grind was basically what defined MMO's. Now that so many people have spent considerable time at max level in various games, original Naxx and AQ have basically defined the new focus of mmo's, getting big groups of people together to beat complex bosses. It's that focus that's enabled them to move away from forcing us into the consumable, rep, etc grinds.




I'm just saying, where are all the brilliant ideas since back then? Sure, there's a few new things to do, but there's really been no new "concepts" of how to approach a boss. Where is *our* opportunity for creativity if the "hardest" bosses in the game are always going to have specific positioning requirements you must conform to in order to succeed? What am I going to differently than the next guy when tanking maly, bring more dk's to ignore positioning and just death grip all the sparks? woo...






Internet & sarcasm etc. Point being every heroic in WotLK is a mini version of a raid. Even far and away the most creative heroic is a tank & spank, followed by "I wish I were C'thun" guy, human version of sapph, then a maly warm-up fight.

The next most "original" fight in any of the heroics turns the whole pt into Understudies.

I guess the "spam jump constantly" thing is new, lol.



Anyway, at this point Tigole's "legacy" as a lead designer basically hinges on Ulduar. If, in the end, Naxxramas is his shining moment, he's a guy who helped come up with one of the best events in any mmo, ever, and helped move the most successful mmo ever along decently well, albeit with an innumerable number of really simple issues. And was a douchebag about said issues.

If, however, Ulduar is able to outshine Naxx... well, WoW will pretty much have established itself as the best multiplayer role-playing experience out there, and he'll get a pretty huge chunk of the credit. So, I suppose we'll see fairly soon.


Also, sapph was specifically designed not to be "creative," but to be simply a direct test of your healers. It's really that simple, and damn is it designed well with that in mind.

Sunwell pretty much improved upon Naxx in every way so I would say that was his shining moment. And I find it odd that you are so high on the fights from Vanilla Wow considering you said at the beginning of your post that you didn't raid pre-bc.

[aurik]

Detonate mana singled a person out of the raid to run the fuck away from, gruul shatter meant you had to coordinate all 25 people so that prox damage was minimized. Oh, and you had to do it following a knockback, and you gradually petrify as the time limit approaches.

Very different gimmicks, even if they both use proximity-to-other-players as a core mechanic.

[Plow]

Detonate mana singled a person out of the raid to run the fuck away from, gruul shatter meant you had to coordinate all 25 people so that prox damage was minimized. Oh, and you had to do it following a knockback, and you gradually petrify as the time limit approaches.

Very different gimmicks, even if they both use proximity-to-other-players as a core mechanic.

You're doing all of that at the same time during KT to prevent chained ice tombs... cept instead of the knockback and slow thing it's stop the frostbolt or everyone takes dmg and gets slowed.

Sunwell pretty much improved upon Naxx in every way so I would say that was his shining moment. And I find it odd that you are so high on the fights from Vanilla Wow considering you said at the beginning of your post that you didn't raid pre-bc.

Sunwell is again redone pre-bc fights.

Kalecgos- BWL stuff + C'thun type mechanics

Brut- mix between gluth, patch, and 2 4h like mechanics

Felmyst- a number of dragons with some sapp/kt tricks thrown in

Twins are well... twins. There are some interesting ideas here, but the concept overall is very similar to things going back as far as SM and as recent as 4h.

M'uru- ok, credit here (and Shade of Aran), the whole no hate list with just crazy damage everywhere thing was not exactly something you'd think you could make a good encounter out of. Though, many would say they didn't ;p Took balls to try, either way.

KJ- Sure, epic, but really just a culmination created by bringing together various mechanics. There's nothing that really stands out as "original" to that fight other than taking control of drakes, which in itself is a tactic that's been used since the first priest got mind control.



I'm not saying they're bad fights, by any means. I'm not trying to imply that naxx fights are "better" in anyway, or anything like that. I'm just saying they're running out of "new."


If Ulduar can be as tough as they say, that's cool.

If Ulduar is made tough by having you ride motorcycles that have 3 abilities you use while doing wheelies to safely move around between patterned shifting clouds on the ground while staying 10 yards away from everyone and killing certain adds in certain places to get buffs while wearing 350 nature resist and switching tanks every 25 seconds, while a few guys loot the dead adds for oil to make the boss slip and fall, then no, it's not creative or new just because they're motorcycles now.

[Eaglestrike]

I'd love to know what would be a "new" mechanic for a boss fight in your mind. Can you think up anything that isn't already in the game in some fashion whatsoever?

[Plow]

I'd love to know what would be a "new" mechanic for a boss fight in your mind. Can you think up anything that isn't already in the game in some fashion whatsoever?

I'm not the one getting rich for it, but gimme a minute I'll think something up.

ninja edit: just a thought, not sure if it would count because it's kind of in game in blade's edge, but semi-tracking projectiles that you have to see coming at you during the fight and be able to function your strafing in order to get them to miss you could be an interesting thought


I'll think of something else that's not in game in any way tho.

[Plow]

4 bosses

All have frontal cleaves.

They need to be close together to switch dps quickly, and each will need a tank, so the best way to position would probably be a smallish diamond with the 4 bosses facing outwards.

They will all be in full on attack mode, and receive the full threat from all abilities regardless of their current "state."

They have 2 states. 1 is taking damage. The other is absorbing all damage.

There is no visible way to see which state they are in, it can only be determined by attacking them. Maybe even have a trick where you have to attack them with a special weapon to be able to allow anyone to be capable of damaging at all, so that you can't just have the tanks say which one is active.

The trick will be a pattern. It will be a random order each time, but they will make a pattern. One will be dps-able for, let's say, 8 seconds at a time, then the next, etc, in the same pattern each time, determined randomly at the start of the fight.

There will be an enrage timer.

The overall idea, is basically, you have to recognize this pattern quickly, and your raid has to become aware of it, and switch their target to match this pattern very efficiently, or they will fail to beat the enrage timer. That's the "new mechanic," and it pretty much defines the fight.


How's that? Given proper tuning etc, obviously.

Make ezmode be 2 mobs, hard mode 4, expert mode 6, insane mode 8, even. I'm pretty sure 8 would pass the human memory's ability to keep up, though.

[Kurp]

That sounds alright as long as you don't need all prot tanks and some would be handled by mages, warlocks, or some other gimmick tank.

[Plow]

Sure, how bout one does all fire damage, one does all frost damage, one does all shadow. Can have a dk tank whichever you're lacking the right guy for.

[Kurp]

I think one of the major things hindering the development of new and unique boss encounters is that they try to make it fair for every class. WoW is so fucking formulaic in dps rotations and boss encounters and w/e.

[Tomino]

on the topic on wow graphics, i think it'd be proper to set a distinction between style and quality.
Wow style is cartoonish, it can or can't be liked but it's very well done in terms of coeherence and style. Races are sometimes funny, weapons are big and phat and zones are colorful and rich in beauty.

On the other side, graphics are sometimes terrible : every single item piece messes with 5 others, i have my 2h sword ripping both my mantle and my back, arms appearing over shoulderpads and gnomes having swords dissapearing into the floor everytime.
races are way too unbalanced in terms of quality : humans/orcs are quite terrible, all rigid especially when compared to BE/Drenai or even the new Virkuls.

I think they'd really try and fix some things. Keep the cartoon but make the game not so full of visual errors as that is something that could bother FF/Lineage/Aion fans quite a lot.