Tigole moves on

[Saga]

4 bosses

4H

All have frontal cleaves.

Every boss ever.

They need to be close together to switch dps quickly, and each will need a tank, so the best way to position would probably be a smallish diamond with the 4 bosses facing outwards.

4H with opposite positioning.

They will all be in full on attack mode, and receive the full threat from all abilities regardless of their current "state."

Can't think of anything for this, have to run soon.

They have 2 states. 1 is taking damage. The other is absorbing all damage.

Hydross had two states!

There is no visible way to see which state they are in, it can only be determined by attacking them. Maybe even have a trick where you have to attack them with a special weapon to be able to allow anyone to be capable of damaging at all, so that you can't just have the tanks say which one is active.

Kael'thas.

The trick will be a pattern. It will be a random order each time, but they will make a pattern. One will be dps-able for, let's say, 8 seconds at a time, then the next, etc, in the same pattern each time, determined randomly at the start of the fight.

Sounds like switching on 4H when marks stack or when shield wall would go up on one of them.

The overall idea, is basically, you have to recognize this pattern quickly, and your raid has to become aware of it, and switch their target to match this pattern very efficiently, or they will fail to beat the enrage timer. That's the "new mechanic," and it pretty much defines the fight.

The new mechanic is a pattern you have to adapt very quickly to? What? That isn't in dozens of other fights?

[Eaglestrike]

I'm not the one getting rich for it, but gimme a minute I'll think something up.

ninja edit: just a thought, not sure if it would count because it's kind of in game in blade's edge, but semi-tracking projectiles that you have to see coming at you during the fight and be able to function your strafing in order to get them to miss you could be an interesting thought


I'll think of something else that's not in game in any way tho.

Those projectiles exist in OS as well as the 3 mobs just before the final boss in OK.

[Noobta]

They have 2 states. 1 is taking damage. The other is absorbing all damage.

C'thun-ish?

[SamanosukeShiva]

bet this guy got pulled for diablo3

[Noobta]

bet this guy got pulled for diablo3

Don't think so, they said it was a new, unannounced MMO

[synistar]

Those projectiles exist in OS as well as the 3 mobs just before the final boss in OK.

And it existed in BC with the dropping infernals in Kara from the last guy.

[Ishido]

And it existed in BC with the dropping infernals in Kara from the last guy.

Technically those were not targeted, they were set positions dropped in a random order.

[Man0warr]

I'm not surprised considering he used to lead one of the biggest PvE guilds in EverQuest. Considering he (and Furor) rode that boat onto Blizzard's development team...

And the guild leader (of LoS) before him was Rob Pardo, aka VP of Game Design at Blizzard for many years. Let me remind you of his accomplishments and if being an uber guild leader in EQ diminished them in some way...

Lead Designer

* World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade
* World of Warcraft
* Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne
* Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos
* StarCraft: Brood War

Designer

* Diablo II
* Warcraft II: Battle.net Edition
* StarCraft



As for Furor, as big a dick as he is, he's responsible for a ton of the quests and quest system that is probably one of the big reasons WoW is so successful.

[aurik]

As for Furor, as big a dick as he is, he's responsible for a ton of the quests and quest system that is probably one of the big reasons WoW is so successful.

If he's responsible for that fucking tuber quest in Shadowmoon Valley, may he rot in hell.

[Plow]

4H



Every boss ever.



4H with opposite positioning.




Can't think of anything for this, have to run soon.



Hydross had two states!



Kael'thas.



Sounds like switching on 4H when marks stack or when shield wall would go up on one of them.



The new mechanic is a pattern you have to adapt very quickly to? What? That isn't in dozens of other fights?

Well, first off, if the best you can come up with is zomg 4 bosses = 4 horsemen! when the concept of the fight is basically the exact opposite of horsemen (whereas, say, eredar twins basically copies the whole concept of balancing the debuff stacks by working back and forth over an area), I think I've done pretty well, for something I thought up in 30 minutes that he's been getting paid millions to do for years.

And the new concept is not as simple as "a pattern you have to adapt very quickly to." It would be figuring out that pattern every fight, then figuring out the best way to dps in accordance with it, while keeping to that pattern throughout the fight. For example, it might be set up to where a fire mage would, for example, LB > scorch > ffb > ffb > switch and LB next, etc. A rogue might simply be Mut > mut > snd > switch > mut > mut > evis > switch > mut > mut > snd, etc. All while adhering to the pattern, and doing no damage if you screw up.

Those projectiles exist in OS as well as the 3 mobs just before the final boss in OK.

The ones in OS are *not* tracking, nor are they really dodge-able unless you have an absolutely insane view distance to keep your camera like a half mile above the screen. Don't remember anything like that in OK at all, but meh, like I said, that one was already kind of in game in blade's edge anyway, just as part of a kind of "mini-game."

[FailureMidgard]

The "I hate Tigole" thing is just some bandwagon thing, because he is somewhat in charge of raid content. That being said, he is human, and I think is actually responsible for most of the good things that have come out of raiding, not the bad ones. Furor on the other hand, I have very little respect for. And all this is from actual contact with both of them during alpha/beta/PTRs.

As for this "nostalgia" for the past, I think you're on crack. I'm someone who thinks the game has taken a huge turn for the worse in Wrath, and it has nothing to do with Nostalgia. The raid game right now is a total joke. I'm sorry, but PuGs shouldn't clear everything without any trouble or wipes. My guild shouldn't be able to kill bosses while ignoring the encounter.

Noth doesn't teleport up to the balcony.
Loatheb dies generally before a single DPS needs a heal from Dooms (Not even a HS/etc).
Anub'Rekhan dies before Locust Swarm.
Faerlina dies as she enrages.
Razuvious requires 0 coordination.
4horsemen don't even require a rotation.
Patchwerk is done by raids with 2 healers.
Gluth dies before decimate.

Raiding is a joke. I'm sorry, but this isn't nostalgia. This is wanting a challenge. It's boring to walk in and clear shit with no problem whatsoever. The fun thing (imo) is seeing a new encounter, having a challenge, AND OVERCOMING THE CHALLENGE. Fuck free loot.

As for other things - I liked original Gruul, I liked original Alar, I liked original SSC except for being RNGed by Hydross' CBs. I think most the fights Blizzard nerfed, had no need to be nerfed. But to each his own, I can fully understand the fact that the hardcore raiding guilds are a minority...but realize it's more than nostalgia when some of us ask for older, harder content back. Not asking for a potion grind, asking for a learning curve to a fight.

[Eaglestrike]

For a guild that doesn't have people who ran original Naxx and didn't play beta there is a learning curve in Naxx. For instance:

I have yet to see a group kill Noth before the teleport.
Loatheb generally does require a bit of healing.
Anub'rekhan has always done at least one locust swarm.
Faerlina has always enraged for a significant chunk of the fight.
etc.

They just PURPOSEFULLY made the learning curve a matter of time to kill as opposed to ability to kill. Which I really don't see the big problem with. They said this, it's done on purpose, they'll give the hardcore people more to do later (like in 3.1 with 11/14 bosses having a hard mode!) but it makes sense to appease the majority of your customer base first. And it's not like EVERYTHING has been easy, OS3 drakes is still difficult and a lot of coordination.

[Plow]

The "I hate Tigole" thing is just some bandwagon thing, because he is somewhat in charge of raid content.

No, I really never gave a shit about him either way until I started watching him talk in public and realized he's a complete douchebag with blatant favoritism he has no qualms about showing.

[Saga]

Well, first off, if the best you can come up with is zomg 4 bosses = 4 horsemen! when the concept of the fight is basically the exact opposite of horsemen (whereas, say, eredar twins basically copies the whole concept of balancing the debuff stacks by working back and forth over an area), I think I've done pretty well, for something I thought up in 30 minutes that he's been getting paid millions to do for years.

'

Actually several of the core mechanics are the same, but argue what you want to. The point was we're just pointing out the same crap you've been every time someone brings up something they think is "original" and you shoot it down. Your fight draws on several other core mechanics already in the game, whether you see them or not. You can't just pick and choose which fights are unique and which aren't based on your borked standard of originality.

[Correction]

Raiding is a joke. I'm sorry, but this isn't nostalgia. This is wanting a challenge. It's boring to walk in and clear shit with no problem whatsoever. The fun thing (imo) is seeing a new encounter, having a challenge, AND OVERCOMING THE CHALLENGE. Fuck free loot.

As for other things - I liked original Gruul, I liked original Alar, I liked original SSC except for being RNGed by Hydross' CBs. I think most the fights Blizzard nerfed, had no need to be nerfed. But to each his own, I can fully understand the fact that the hardcore raiding guilds are a minority...but realize it's more than nostalgia when some of us ask for older, harder content back. Not asking for a potion grind, asking for a learning curve to a fight.

Even the trash? You're insane. You like Gruul shattering pets? You're a masochist. You think Magtheridon, a T4 boss, wasn't overtuned at release, or that Vashj should still be able to mind control tanks in p3?

Early WotLK raids are getting steamrolled because they were getting steamrolled in Beta, and because they don't employ a lot of new surprises we haven't seen before, assuming we have at least some sense of older raids behind us. There is also just a lot more epic-quality gear in the game right now. There were no 'badges' back in vanilla WoW so your epics had to come from BWL/AQ40, both pretty inaccessible to players who couldn't field a 40-man raid every week. This is the meaning of the word entry level. Were you complaining when 10-man Blackrock instances were getting pugged in vanilla?

With the manpower requirements down and a surplus of very good gear coming out of heroics the limiting factor to WotLK raiding is now 'do you not suck at your class?' which to me is perfectly fine, especially now at 80 where talent builds have reached an all-time high of diverse viability. Having to tune even entry-level raids around world buffs and consumable abuses led to overtuned shitheaps in Gruul 1.0 and Magtheridon.

[Plow]

'

Actually several of the core mechanics are the same, but argue what you want to. The point was we're just pointing out the same crap you've been every time someone brings up something they think is "original" and you shoot it down. Your fight draws on several other core mechanics already in the game, whether you see them or not. You can't just pick and choose which fights are unique and which aren't based on your borked standard of originality.

I completely understand what other mechanics it draws upon, if you can't use the example to see what I mean by new mechanics, and just want to try to argue, by all means go ahead. I made my point, if you choose to ignore it because you want to be on the anti-nostalgia bandwagon (which, like I said is ridiculous considering how I have no form of nostalgia for raiding whatsoever), there's not a lot more I can say about it.


Secondly, in response to what Correction is saying, Naxx is easy because even if you haven't done it before, virtually every mechanic from it has been taken for a heroic or raid since then.


I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that hardly anyone commenting here raided Kara when it first came out. Mostly because, well, if they had, someone would've pointed it out in that argument, as it has more creativity and originality than everything else in the game combined since Naxx by a long shot.


Some parts of Kara were poorly tuned (aka borked), but for the most part it was really pretty amazing, and walking in there in heroic blues and level 60 gear was leaps and bounds above lv 80 Naxx in challenge level, even compared to going in 80 heroic stuff and level 70 gear.


Naxx is not easy because it's "entry level content." Naxx is easy because they specifically reused it due to wanting more people to see it. Mark my words, with Naxx gear, Ulduar with none of the hard mode shit will be every bit as easy as Naxx, for the exact same reason.

They simply want the people that are paying them to create content to actually get to use it.

[FailureMidgard]

For a guild that doesn't have people who ran original Naxx and didn't play beta there is a learning curve in Naxx. For instance:

I have yet to see a group kill Noth before the teleport.
Loatheb generally does require a bit of healing.
Anub'rekhan has always done at least one locust swarm.
Faerlina has always enraged for a significant chunk of the fight.
etc.

They just PURPOSEFULLY made the learning curve a matter of time to kill as opposed to ability to kill. Which I really don't see the big problem with. They said this, it's done on purpose, they'll give the hardcore people more to do later (like in 3.1 with 11/14 bosses having a hard mode!) but it makes sense to appease the majority of your customer base first. And it's not like EVERYTHING has been easy, OS3 drakes is still difficult and a lot of coordination.

I strongly disagree with OS 3 drake being difficult. It is in the "average" range of difficulty. It was right in line with Huhuran.

Anyway, all of my opinions are from being in one of the best guilds in the world, so yea, a lot of people will have varying opinions. I guarantee you that all of the things I said in my last post, we do on a regular basis, however.

Anyway, hopefully the "hard mode" stuff in Ulduar is what I'm looking for. And sorry, there is still no learning curve. I have seen pugs with 15+ people that have never done the fights go in and breeze through it. Does any fight in Naxx have an enrage timer that people can hit? I know at 60 they did. Every week there was a chance we could wipe on Gothik. Same with 4h (I think 4h is a shining example of an encounter they destroyed...they really should have left in the shield walls at the very least, and required switches.)

To Correction - Trash needs to have a purpose. If the purpose of Trash is to limit my time learning a boss, I am fine with it. If the purpose of trash is to make me spend an extra 10-15min per boss per week, it should be removed. I hate Naxx trash far more than SSC trash, because it feels insanely pointless.

Gruul shattering pets sucked for hunters, if you truly think I meant I liked that 1 mechanic when I said I liked original Gruul, you are mental. I liked the original damage #s on Shatter, I liked the fact that there was some degree of difficulty to it. The nerfed version you could beat (back before t6) without anyone moving after a shatter. That's dumb.
There were problems with SSC (Vashj was 1). There were also tons of things that got nerfed that needed no nerf. Outside of the MCs on Vashj, I would have preferred the original SSC to the final one. I prefer Gruul shattering pets, and being a fight worth keeping my eyes open for, than the later version.

And no, in Vanilla, early Blackrock instances were -harder- than Naxx is now. Furthermore, there was actual content past that for me to do. Also, you're wrong about raiding now, many people are doing very well in raiding that -do- suck at their class. Look at WWS reports of people that are good at their classes, at a good guild, and then look at all these other ones. If someone does ~50-60% of their DPS potential, how is that not sucking at their class?

I'm fine with their being easier content for people. I'm not fine with that replacing any challenging content there may be, and I'm mainly just typing this to point out the difference between nostalgia, and regret. I feel no nostalgia, I don't think any pre-tbc instance was -that- great. But at least they had encounter that were somewhat difficult, at the time.

[Saga]

Plow: I don't want to try and argue, I just want to point out the hypocrisy of shooting down everything as unoriginal then coming up with a fight in which the only original concept is that 8-second pattern. I understand the original aspects of it and it sounds like a very interesting encounter, but the point was for you to see how nitpicky you are on every example of originality someone comes up with then shrugging off rebuttals on your own examples.

Failure: My hope is that huge percentage of people that suck at their class won't be able to progress come Ulduar. Ulduar won't be puggable for a long while, and hopefully people will realize they can't coast on 22-23 other people. I will say it's ridiculous that Naxx can be 19/20-manned, but then I don't think encounters like Heigan are very difficult. Half the raid died around 50% and we got him down after two more dances anyway.

[Correction]

I have faith that the tolerance for players doing 50~60% of their dps potential will be much tighter in Ulduar, they've specifically promised a much more difficult raiding experience there.

Also, you're wrong about raiding now, many people are doing very well in raiding that -do- suck at their class.

I think you and I have very different understandings of the term 'very well.' A Naxx25 clear that takes more than a single night is not 'very well' in my book. The rewards may be the same, but the gap in quality of time spent and how much money is left in your bags at the end of the night will widen in time. Such players will never be ready for Ulduar, IMO.

I strongly disagree with OS 3 drake being difficult. It is in the "average" range of difficulty. It was right in line with Huhuran.

Huhuran was average difficulty, huh. Then you should be salivating at the opportunity to pad your ego and shrug at 11 bosses with a Hard Mode. 'haha nq guilds are nq.'

[Plow]

Plow: I don't want to try and argue, I just want to point out the hypocrisy of shooting down everything as unoriginal then coming up with a fight in which the only original concept is that 8-second pattern. I understand the original aspects of it and it sounds like a very interesting encounter, but the point was for you to see how nitpicky you are on every example of originality someone comes up with then shrugging off rebuttals on your own examples.

Failure: My hope is that huge percentage of people that suck at their class won't be able to progress come Ulduar. Ulduar won't be puggable for a long while, and hopefully people will realize they can't coast on 22-23 other people. I will say it's ridiculous that Naxx can be 19/20-manned, but then I don't think encounters like Heigan are very difficult. Half the raid died around 50% and we got him down after two more dances anyway.

The point is that I'm not. I'm talking about the primary mechanics of the fights, not the little tricks used to fill in the gaps.

The main idea of the fight being "stay 10 yards apart" vs the main idea of a fight being "stay 20 yards apart" is a hell of a lot different comparison than "zomg they both have cleaves!" Like I said, if you're going to try to equate those comparisons, there's just nothing I can say.

MMO's are not a "Simpsons did it" situation, or at least they sure as hell shouldn't be, yet.