Tigole moves on

[FailureMidgard]

I have faith that the tolerance for players doing 50~60% of their dps potential will be much tighter in Ulduar, they've specifically promised a much more difficult raiding experience there.



I think you and I have very different understandings of the term 'very well.' A Naxx25 clear that takes more than a single night is not 'very well' in my book. The rewards may be the same, but the gap in quality of time spent and how much money is left in your bags at the end of the night will widen in time. Such players will never be ready for Ulduar, IMO.



Huhuran was average difficulty, huh. Then you should be salivating at the opportunity to pad your ego and shrug at 11 bosses with a Hard Mode. 'haha nq guilds are nq.'

Less my ego, more my desire to have a true challenge, but sure, my guild has been called elitist/etc/etc forever. We were the 2nd guild in the world to down KT at 60, and were top3 US/top10 world through pretty much everything until we stopped raiding (though we reformed for wotlk...which has been nothing special so far).

As for the "very well" thing...I've done multiple pugs that have all full cleared in 1 night (3-4 hrs), most with <2 total wipes (and this includes Sarth 2drake).

And BTW, the current version of Naxx25 can be 10manned, not 19-20 manned.

[Eaglestrike]

I'd love to see Patchwerk and Thaddius get 10-manned in 25's.

[Saga]

Are you in DnT? Or SKGaming or something similar? Deus Vox? I forget the world second kill, but if it's DnT then I don't think it's fair to use Kargath as the standard for pugs. Everything was pugged on that server, even way before WotLK came out. That's like looking at the Horde on Cho'gall and saying "welp everything's too easy." Whatever you're used to on your server isn't the standard most guilds or servers are used to, so your "average" is "really excellent" to everyone else. I'm on Laughing Skull, and despite DV's presence alliance progression isn't stellar. Plenty of things are still pugged successfully (and unsuccessfully, don't even get me started on 10man maly), my guild one-shotted 25-man maly every time since we cleared it for the first time 4 weeks ago, we can clear naxx25 in one night, but I consider us slightly above average. We have 25-man 2D down, working on 3D, doubt we'll ever see a 10-man 3D kill (maybe, not our focus atm). But yeah, I dunno, that's just my experience.

[Noobta]

He's the GM of Risen.

[Saga]

Ah alright, that explains something, thank you.

[FailureMidgard]

Illidan-Alliance, I started pugging on my shaman, I convinced the pug group I went with to try 2-drake Sartharion. They wiped exactly twice before killing it, and have continued to kill it since.

I am now on Ner'zhul, and pugs are very similar in quality here as they were there. I would go to these pug raids and place top2 on meters on virtually every fight. Ele DPS was pretty poor pre-patch (I was pushing 3500-4000 tops). These pugs weren't anything special really.

And don't get me wrong, the server I was on pre-Wrath was Alleria, and things were "pugged"...it was more of a group of individuals that "pugged" together every week, and each week they'd maybe have 2-5 new people, some of which would join the "pug". In all honesty, it was more a guild with a few guests each week, rather than a pug.

Now, there's probably 4-5 different 25man pugs that run every day. I'm not sure if people truly think that the content now is challenging or something, or if people just feel that they are fine with the content being so easy. I am personally fine with easy content being in the game for the vast majority of players that are not like me. That being said, I think there are enough players that are like me to -also- have hard content. I am truly hoping Ulduar will satisfy everyone and live up to what Blizzard is promising.

But back to the topic of this thread - I think Tigole was a very important person (albeit an ass - but I think that "quality" is what made him do a good job in some cases) that did a lot of amazing things for WoW's raiding scene. Furor is more responsible for that crap that most people see as a negative. And again, my opinions here are from actual interaction with both in PTR/alpha/beta and emails.

[aurik]

All I'm hearing is "Waaaah I'm playing with the top 0.5% of players in my guild and everything in WoW is too easy."

[FailureMidgard]

All I'm hearing is "Waaaah I'm playing with the top 0.5% of players in my guild and everything in WoW is too easy."

I'm actually not complaining at all. People at Blizzard in the development department actually agree with me that Naxx was too easy, they didn't tune it properly. I am also very excited and looking forward to Ulduar.

I'm saying
"I think for the most part "classic days nostalgia" is a manifestation of people who actually enjoyed the grinding that went into raiding back then. Stacking elixirs and world buffs, just to down a single boss is extremely tedious. Hell, back in classic naxx you would do a couple of practice runs, then run out and get the dragon head / zandalar buffs, fully world-buff, and return to the raid instance just to take down a single boss. And the encounters were tuned with this min-maxing in mind, so to do otherwise would require the group to already be well overgeared for the encounter."
is a huge load of shit, and it has nothing to do with Nostalgia. I hated consumable/worldbuff crap in Naxx, but I liked the fact that new content wasn't a bunch of trash mobs with a glorified named trash mob that happens to drop a few epics. I'm saying 80 Naxx is like city Dynamis runs.

It's ok though, as I said, I know for a fact developers at Blizzard were quite unhappy with how easy Naxx turned out to be. Incase it still isn't clear to you, I am only trying to make 2 points. 1 - Tigole was a very good thing going for WoW, and it's bad he has left. 2 - A lot of people that compare the past and present of WoW don't do it out of Nostalgia, they do it because WoW is insanely boring at the moment. I know a ton of people in casual guilds that are at the same point of me that log on once a week to raid for 3-4 hrs, then log off for the rest of the week (ok, to be fair I log on once more to arena). I think comments like the one above that you made are insulting to people's intelligence.

[Correction]

You have yet to express any faith that things will get more challenging in the future.

It's pretty clear from blue posts that they will return to an era of stratified have and have-not epics, what with Hard Mode now rewarding proper gear rather than merely mounts and epics. I think that should be more than enough to please all the Risens and Nihilums of the world.

[FailureMidgard]

You have yet to express any faith that things will get more challenging in the future.

It's pretty clear from blue posts that they will return to an era of stratified have and have-not epics, what with Hard Mode now rewarding proper gear rather than merely mounts and epics. I think that should be more than enough to please all the Risens and Nihilums of the world.

I am not sure if I have faith in things getting harder or not...Sarth 3 drake was a decent difficulty, if all 11 of the hard-modes in Ulduar are that or harder, then I will be quite happy, I did say in 2-3 of my posts that I hope they are difficult.

I think things like 3-drake Sarth (and what Ulduar is supposed to be) really are good though...I like the idea of a difficulty slider. It was one of the most appealing things about single player FPSes, IMO. Playing those on the lowest difficulty was boring (though I make no claims to have used the hardest difficulty either, heh). I think on some level, everyone wants a challenge. People don't want to walk in and just push things over. They want a beatable challenge. Hopefully Ulduar will give said challenge to all sorts of people at different gear/skill/organization levels.

[aurik]

I'm actually not complaining at all. People at Blizzard in the development department actually agree with me that Naxx was too easy, they didn't tune it properly.

Haven't heard them say Naxx was "too easy", I've heard them say plenty of times that is was "easy, just as designed". Face it, they do not and probably never will again design content targeted to challenge the upper 1% of the customer base. And for damn good reason, too.

[FailureMidgard]

Haven't heard them say Naxx was "too easy", I've heard them say plenty of times that is was "easy, just as designed". Face it, they do not and probably never will again design content targeted to challenge the upper 1% of the customer base. And for damn good reason, too.

I know someone who works at Blizzard, and they were unhappy with it (no point arguing this further, take my word for it or don't). Naxx80 didn't challenge pugs, however. Really, Kara and Void Reaver were both harder than Naxx80 is.

[aurik]

I know someone who works at Blizzard, and they were unhappy with it (no point arguing this further, take my word for it or don't). Naxx80 didn't challenge pugs, however. Really, Kara and Void Reaver were both harder than Naxx80 is.

The magic "inside sources" card has been played! No point in arguing further!

[avelle]

I know it sounds like one of those things people say when they are losing an arguement or something, but take his word for it.

[FailureMidgard]

The magic "inside sources" card has been played! No point in arguing further!

I don't really particularly care if you believe me, it's pointless to argue "uh-huh" "nuh-uh" "uh-huh" etc. Stemming from my lack of caring if you believe me, I don't feel like going out of my way to try to prove it to you, but the same friend got me into alphas for both TBC and WotLK.

In any case, I note how you don't respond to my comparison between TBC and WotLK (specifically parts of TBC that were not meant to challenge the top 1%, but yet were still more difficult than current raids). I realize you are well respected here at BG/in the FFXI community (I have respect for you as well). But I'm not exactly an unknown in the WoW endgame scene, and I generally do know what I am talking about.

[aurik]

Why would I need to take his word for anything? The argument stops when he cites information that is neither verifiable or dependable.

Truth is, a lot of people are "nostalgic" for old endgame where grinding the fuck out of everything was practically required, because being in the "elite few" that had the time to waste made them feel special.

Unfortunately, the sad fact is that most of them weren't and aren't particularly good at their class, despite raiding naxx pre-TBC. I've met plenty on K'T who were in naxx40 pre-TBC, or Sunwell pre-3.0 and the fact of the matter is they are not better skill-wise than the other people, they just had the time to waste and a high tolerance for the bullshit you have to endure to herd 39 cats through a floating necropolis.

WotLK Naxx not being "hard" is only a disappointment to the portion of the customer base that wants to feel superior to other players. It is immediately completable by talented 80s wearing appropriate blues, and it is completable when wearing appropriate epics even with the low level of coordination that a pickup-group brings. These are symptoms of good design for an entry level raid, which is exactly what it was intended to be.

Any blizzard designer that laments the low difficulty bar in naxx is borderline retarded, and in my opinion should be relegated to ensuring the ice stone remains frozen.

[aurik]

I don't really particularly care if you believe me, it's pointless to argue "uh-huh" "nuh-uh" "uh-huh" etc. Stemming from my lack of caring if you believe me, I don't feel like going out of my way to try to prove it to you, but the same friend got me into alphas for both TBC and WotLK.

In any case, I note how you don't respond to my comparison between TBC and WotLK (specifically parts of TBC that were not meant to challenge the top 1%, but yet were still more difficult than current raids). I realize you are well respected here at BG/in the FFXI community (I have respect for you as well). But I'm not exactly an unknown in the WoW endgame scene, and I generally do know what I am talking about.

I like how you say you don't feel like proving anything, but then go on to try to prove it. I don't really give a fuck if you're "important" in the MMO community. By the way, one of the many things I do as part of my real life job is game design. Tell me, does that add any credibility to my argument? If it does, then I must be making a poor argument. And that's exactly what playing the inside sources / appeal to authority card does.

I wasn't around to judge the initial TBC raiding difficulty, but from what you're saying, it was jacked the fuck up and broken as all hell from a design standpoint.

[Eaglestrike]

I remember hearing Naxx40 was hard because you HAD to have 8 warriors with 2 or 4pc t3 to do 4 horsemen. Yeah, that's tough stuff right there...

[FailureMidgard]

Why would I need to take his word for anything? The argument stops when he cites information that is neither verifiable or dependable.

Truth is, a lot of people are "nostalgic" for old endgame where grinding the fuck out of everything was practically required, because being in the "elite few" that had the time to waste made them feel special.

Unfortunately, the sad fact is that most of them weren't and aren't particularly good at their class, despite raiding naxx pre-TBC. I've met plenty on K'T who were in naxx40 pre-TBC, or Sunwell pre-3.0 and the fact of the matter is they are not better skill-wise than the people, they just had the time to waste and a high tolerance for the bullshit you have to endure to herd 24 cats through a floating necropolis.

WotLK Naxx not being "hard" is only a disappointment to the portion of the customer base that wants to feel superior to other players. It is immediately completable by talented 80s wearing appropriate blues, and that it is completable when wearing epics even with the low level of coordination that a pickup-group brings. These are symptoms of good design for an entry level raid, which is exactly what it was intended to be.

Any blizzard designer that laments the low difficulty bar in naxx is borderline retarded, and in my opinion should be relegated to ensuring the ice stone remains frozen.

You still misunderstand everything I've said. As I said, even in single player games, I enjoyed games with multiple difficulties, and I think most people do. I don't want hard content to feel superior to others, I want content that is challenging and gives me a personal sense of accomplishment when I am done with it. Everyone likes that feeling of accomplishing something. It's not wanting to rube your pride in someone else's face, it's that feeling you get yourself when you know you did a good job.

I agree that entry level content should be easier. There is still such a thing as too easy, however. The damage Sapphiron does to a tank is well tuned for entry-level content. The enrage timer on Patchwerk is not. I have never once heard of someone hitting the enrage timer on Patchwerk at 80, even in a pug. Making the enrage timer 5ish minutes wouldn't be unreasonable at all. It may mean you need hunters that do more than auto shot with their pet at their side rather than attacking Patchwerk, but literally in pugs I see 5+ people not breaking 2k DPS, and still not coming close to Patchwerk's enrage. I could go on and point out other things that are similar to this. I'm not saying Naxx should be some hardcore/etc instance. I'm saying it should be harder than 5man heroics, and it should be at least equal to what Kara was. Give shield walls back to the horsemen, make a Heigan splash do more than ~30% of a random DPSers max HP.

As for your assessment of many end-game players, I fully agree, and it is the exact same in FFXI HNM shells. That being said, there are still good players in top guilds, there are still top guilds that have a higher saturation of good players.

Now, I will requote my post for you:
"I don't really particularly care if you believe me, it's pointless to argue "uh-huh" "nuh-uh" "uh-huh" etc. Stemming from my lack of caring if you believe me, I don't feel like going out of my way to try to prove it to you, but the same friend got me into alphas for both TBC and WotLK."

I don't care if you believe me.
I don't feel like going _out of my way_ to try to prove it to you. Typing out half a sentence is not going out of my way. Trying to get someone to work at Blizzard and come post here would be going out of my way, and quite pointless, I hope you can agree with and appreciate that.

And yes, the beginning of TBC was wrong, in the opposite direction (even though I did like Gruul personally, I can recognize it wasn't good for the game). That doesn't validate the degree they went overboard with Naxx.
As for my position in the community, and yours here, and your job, no, it doesn't lend particular weight to an argument, but I do think it gives some margin of credibility to a claim made such as "Person X told me this".

As for my "inside source card", let me show you the argument that that pertained to, step-by-step:
Me: "People at Blizzard in the development department actually agree with me that Naxx was too easy, they didn't tune it properly."
You: "Haven't heard them say Naxx was "too easy", I've heard them say plenty of times that is was "easy, just as designed"."
Me: "I know someone who works at Blizzard, and they were unhappy with it (no point arguing this further, take my word for it or don't)"

Sorry, but you are arguing against what I heard. The entire argument is about hearsay. It really isn't worth debating, don't believe me or believe me, who cares, it doesn't change the fact that Naxx is indeed too easy -even for entry level content-. As for you as a game designer, I truly hope you do understand that -every- gamer wants a small challenge of some sort, or they wouldn't be playing the game. The only variable is what is challenging to whom.

[FailureMidgard]

I remember hearing Naxx40 was hard because you HAD to have 8 warriors with 2 or 4pc t3 to do 4 horsemen. Yeah, that's tough stuff right there...

And yet that was never true. We had 1 warrior with that at our first kill.

Naxx really wasn't particularly hard at 60, to be honest. A few fights were, but most was only hard in comparison to something like the current Naxx.