Tigole moves on

[FailureMidgard]

Yup, that's got 'I'm happy with raiding right now' written all over it. High horsing is pretending you aren't whining and belittling when others point it out as unintelligent braying.

Naxx isn't going to change from its current form, at least not strictly for the more difficult. I don't think Blizz is going to write you a letter of apology for making it easier than it was at 60, either.

I am well aware Naxx won't change. I don't see myself making an online petition to get Blizzard to change it.

There's a restaurant you like a ton, and the ownership of it changes. The menu/cook is the exact same, but now they play music you find rather annoying, or the prices went up, or they did something else that you dislike. But guess what, you still love the food, and thus, are very happy to continue going there. It is perfectly valid and fair to say something has taken a turn for the worse, but still be something you like.

As for the second line you bolded, yea, I admit that there could be things that would make the game more enjoyable for me - but the main reason I play is to play with people I like and consider my friends. Basically, no matter what Blizzard does with WoW, as long as my guild is around, I will be playing the game, and *gasp* I will be having fun with it. I used to play golf when I was younger. I never thought actually playing golf was fun. I thought it was a pretty silly sport. If you asked me if I liked going golfing though, and was happy with it, I would have said yes. I had a great time every time I went, having fun with friends, laughing, etc. On the other hand, I loved soccer (the actual sport), and I played it with people I didn't even like. I was also more than happy playing soccer.

Furthermore, regardless what Blizzard puts in their game, I can have fun and be happy because I am an individual that has some control over what I do. We do things like aim to kill Gluth before he decimates, kill Faerlina before she enrages, try to break DPS records, take Sapphiron breaths to the face and survive. We are capable of having fun with whatever Blizzard gives us, we can add our own challenge. I can be happy regardless of thinking that the base content is boring and under-tuned.

Again - I am perfectly happy, and me posting that I think Naxx drops too much does in no way imply I think BWL was perfect, nor does it imply that I am unhappy with the game.

[Meresgi]

Sunwell pretty much improved upon Naxx in every way so I would say that was his shining moment. And I find it odd that you are so high on the fights from Vanilla Wow considering you said at the beginning of your post that you didn't raid pre-bc.

Sunwell was ass and retarded. And it's the reason shamans have a debuff on their bloodlust now. Something isnt hard when all it requires is bringing an overabundance of 1 class, blizzard even went on record saying this.

[Bweigelt]

Sunwell was ass and retarded. And it's the reason shamans have a debuff on their bloodlust now. Something isnt hard when all it requires is bringing an overabundance of 1 class, blizzard even went on record saying this.

I'll take it you didn't raid pre-tbc.

[Meresgi]

I'll take it you didn't raid pre-tbc.

I raided Pre TBC as well, all raids and was up to Sapph in naxx. I thought that shit was boring as hell and poorly designed as well in some regards, the fights were fun but the balancing was def tuned to only hardcores. But then again back in Pre-BC there were no real hybrids, look at the tier gear, if you could heal..you basically healed. Only warriors really tanked, etc etc

[Plow]

I raided Pre TBC as well, all raids and was up to Sapph in naxx. I thought that shit was boring as hell and poorly designed as well in some regards, the fights were fun but the balancing was def tuned to only hardcores. But then again back in Pre-BC there were no real hybrids, look at the tier gear, if you could heal..you basically healed. Only warriors really tanked, etc etc

The best part was how as a hybrid, you got to be forced into a healing role... wearing full hybrid gear lol.

[Saga]

I raided Pre TBC as well, all raids and was up to Sapph in naxx. I thought that shit was boring as hell and poorly designed as well in some regards, the fights were fun but the balancing was def tuned to only hardcores. But then again back in Pre-BC there were no real hybrids, look at the tier gear, if you could heal..you basically healed. Only warriors really tanked, etc etc

yeah lol I don't think pallies ever tanked in vanilla. all our tanks were warriors with quel'serrar, and their 12k raid buffed/flasked/potted HP was ungodly

[Meresgi]

yeah lol I don't think pallies ever tanked in vanilla. all our tanks were warriors with quel'serrar, and their 12k raid buffed/flasked/potted HP was ungodly

Yup, that's why there was this kind of "untouchable" aura about prot pallies when BC hit. They could tank...but no one know how, same with all the hybrids.



Personally I think WoW is in a good place right now, the current content IS boring, i'll admit it. I havnt done 3D sarth yet, so I still have stuff to work on, but the main issue with it being boring is that really they only added one new boss, that being Maly. Sartharion isnt really anything more then Ony w/ big whelps and no deep breath. And Naxx is....Naxx.

I'm looking forward to Ulduar, it will be the first test to see what WoW has in store for it in regards to PvE.

[aurik]

2500 from a hunter on patch are you serious? I'm almost certain I can put on my block value set and beat that as a prot pally post-nerf, if I don't have to worry about mitigation. Pretty sure people I know could pull 2500 putting pet on boss engaging auto-attack and going AFK. Gear from the instance itself making the "gear-check" encounters auto-attackable is a bit much, no? lol...

You realize Sunwell gear is not exactly bad entry level raid gear right?

Pug sarth25 (ZERO DRAKES of course):

[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 14. Kyroth 414032 (1786.4, 4.6%)
[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 15. Jonnygalt 393783 (1623.9, 4.4%)
[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 16. Ashlight 275513 (1471.9, 3%)
[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 17. Rambolin 212476 (944.9, 2.3%) [TANK]
[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 18. Ozrambos 207189 (1013.4, 2.3%)
[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 19. Powerrage 188339 (804.1, 2.1%) [TANK]

This is with full raid-buffs.

Oh yea, Kyroth won the roll on t7.25 hands, the dragonhide bag and the sachet of spoils. The caster ring (wyrmrest band) went to a priest that died to the first flame wave.

[Correction]

Oh god don't make me pull dps meters from my fucking VoA pugs...

[Eaglestrike]

Pug sarth25 (ZERO DRAKES of course):

[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 14. Kyroth 414032 (1786.4, 4.6%)
[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 15. Jonnygalt 393783 (1623.9, 4.4%)
[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 16. Ashlight 275513 (1471.9, 3%)
[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 17. Rambolin 212476 (944.9, 2.3%) [TANK]
[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 18. Ozrambos 207189 (1013.4, 2.3%)
[17:28:44] [4] [80:Jurik]: 19. Powerrage 188339 (804.1, 2.1%) [TANK]

This is with full raid-buffs.

Oh yea, Kyroth won the roll on t7.25 hands, the dragonhide bag and the sachet of spoils. The caster ring (wyrmrest band) went to a priest that died to the first flame wave.

People that bad aren't clearing content, even with content how it is. Sarth 0 drakes isn't content, it's by far the easiest encounter created since Shade of Akama.

Armorying achievements:
Powerrage: Military quarter, Sapphiron and 0 drake Sarth only 10-man achievements, he was brought into a pug and carried through 2 very easy bosses and 4H, did nothing on Sapphiron and the group wasn't capable of taking down KT (or he was kicked) Sarth 0 drake is his only 25-man.

Ozrambos: Military/spider wings for 10-man, only Sarth 0 for 25.

Rambolin: Plague/spider (safety dance amg) and Sarth 10/25.

Ashlight: Spider 10 and Sarth 10/25

Jonnygalt: Spider/Sapph 10, Sarth 25.

Kyroth: Sarth 25 is his only achievement.

These people are only able to get carried through small portions of this content, even with how easy it is. Jonny didn't even raid at 70, he recently got the Kara achievement. Some of them are total newbies, some are just bad, and they're not getting anything down.

[Okan]

The best part was how as a hybrid, you got to be forced into a healing role... wearing full hybrid gear lol.

Try being a hunter... I know a few guilds who dropped Hunters pre-TBC in favor of more mages for rolling ignites. Yeah, that was fun.

[Meresgi]

Try being a hunter... I know a few guilds who dropped Hunters pre-TBC in favor of more mages for rolling ignites. Yeah, that was fun.

What about warlocks? I mean, cookie vendors and summoning stones. We only ever brought 2 with us, because they had different Healthstones and that was 2 soulstones.

[Okan]

Actually, warlocks were great DPS as long as the fight was threat free such as Rag, Ouro, C'Thun, Raz, Patchwerk, and any others I don't remember. Once there was threat though, they had no scaling or drops like Feign Death so they were boned waiting on the tank(s) to build more threat for them to DPS. Also great for trash since those were typically burned down too fast to care about threat.

Though I do understand the issue.

[Plow]

I just did 2053 dps on Sarth wearing 3 pieces of gear above level 70 (wand, chest, head), all of the 70 gear was pvp except 1 kara piece and icon.

Arcane mage.

<1110 sp, 14.5ish crit unbuffed, 76 hit plus talents


If people can't top 2500 dps on patch in heroic gear, they're doing something terribly, terribly wrong. This mage was purely aoe grinded and doesn't even have quest gear. (or cold weather flying, wintergarde gryphon whistle to get to naxx ftw).


And I just realized I completely forgot to mirror image.

[aurik]

My fresh-80-in-quest-blues enhancement shaman does like 1200 dps in heroics. So it probably depends greatly on what class you're playing. Mage being at the top of the heap for dps anyway, plus being a "pure" dps class makes it easier to get to reasonable performance. "Buff" dps classes and hybrids will have much more work to do to reach that level.

Last Sunday I ran with a reasonable naxx10 pug: we cleared everything in 3 wings in about 2 hours, 1-shot every fight except for 4horsemen which took 2. Our dps were pulling around 2k for the non-gimmick fights like Raz. Asking for 2500dps average for patch is really too much for entry-level raiding. Not even a single pure pickup I've had has come anywhere near that mark.

[Plow]

If you can't do at least 25% more dmg than a guy in full level 70 pvp gear, who forgets abilities, and I'm certain I wasn't using my cooldowns very well... wtf business do you have clearing the hardest bosses in game atm at level 80?

[aurik]

If you can't do at least 25% more dmg than a guy in full level 70 pvp gear, who forgets abilities, and I'm certain I wasn't using my cooldowns very well... wtf business do you have clearing the hardest bosses in game atm at level 80?

Because they're not meant to be hard bosses, they're meant to be entry level. It's like you guys forget this fact every 3 or 4 posts.

Entry level means people that are just raiding for the first few times need to be able to have some success. As a designer, you're have to assume they're still trying to figure out what stats to wear (ie, they're not going to be hit capped), what talents to take (ie, they're going to be using leveling or pvp specs), what rotations to use, and so forth.

As I said, my reasonable pug raid group from last Sunday was probably enroute to about a 5:30 Patchwerk, and they weren't terrible players, just new at the whole raiding thing.

If the first fight in Naxx was Razorgore in complexity, or Vaelastrasz in stat-check difficulty, you'd be missing the point of making an entry level raid in the first place. Naxx isn't a t2 or t3 raid like it used to be. Stop thinking it should be hard.

[Plow]

Because they're not meant to be hard bosses, they're meant to be entry level. It's like you guys forget this fact every 3 or 4 posts.

Entry level means people that are just raiding for the first few times need to be able to have some success. As a designer, you're have to assume they're still trying to figure out what stats to wear (ie, they're not going to be hit capped), what talents to take (ie, they're going to be using leveling or pvp specs), what rotations to use, and so forth.

As I said, my reasonable pug raid group from last Sunday was probably enroute to about a 5:30 Patchwerk, and they weren't terrible players, just new at the whole raiding thing.

If the first fight in Naxx was Razorgore in complexity, or Vaelastrasz in stat-check difficulty, you'd be missing the point of making an entry level raid in the first place. Naxx isn't a t2 or t3 raid like it used to be. Stop thinking it should be hard.

Well, first off, did you forget about spider and plague wings? Construct is supposed to be the "hard" part of naxx-- smart pug leaders go straight to patch not because he's "the first boss in the instance," but to weed out retards without getting a few good people saved in spider/plague only to find out 3/4 the raid is retarded in construct.


Downing spider, Plague (fuck heigan is tuned so 3 people can down him, easily, if the rest of the raid dies on first fast phase), razuv, and maybe gothikk seems more than reasonable for, well, fucktards. Seriously, I was playing beyond terribly (intentionally not aoe'ing or targeting adds to test single target dps as a mage on sarth...), in gear that should damn near be too weak to go through heroics, and I see people in KT gear with 900 more SP that can barely pass me up.


Really, I don't even have any objections to there being easy ass raid content, I wouldn't even care if idiot noobs could get full 7.5 by doing archavon 1 time and I had to take a month and a half getting the same gear from naxx.

The issue is just that when *all* there is is a bunch of insanely easy content + 1 decent fight a week, it just becomes tedium.

And, at this point, it's not just tedious boring easy ass shit for the top 1% of raiders or whatever, the shit is a joke to anyone that's not just plain bad.

[aurik]

This is why you can't tune the entry raid too hard:

Heigen recount:
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8167/pugheigan.jpg

Yup, that's me at #9 as a RESTO DRUID throwing moonfires and wraths in between healing the remnants of our raid from the first fast-dance phase.

We had a full-quest-blues enh shaman, and he was doing about 1500-1600 dps with full raid buffs. Decently close to I expected. Also had another resto druid who couldn't find his decurse button, I beat him about 6:1 on Noth dispels.

Naturally, we couldn't beat thaddius--I have no idea how they managed patchwerk--so we didn't get to wipe hilariously on sapphiron or KT. But I think the entry-level raid is tuned right if terrible players can join up and have some success, yet fail in enlightening ways. The ones that care will try to figure out why they're sucking so badly, and get better in the process.

[EternityEnd]

To think I thought my backwater server's PUGs failed at DPS. That makes me want to gouge my eyes out.

I don't think Blizzard should assume that the average player is retarded and/or ignorant enough not to be hit capped in a raid setting(Even if the majority of players are 12 year old downs kids.) That's simply ludicrous. I won't deny I almost went straight to heroics upon dinging 80, however, I made sure I was hit capped and had adequate stats on both of my 80s when they dinged, before setting foot in heroics. Do you know why? Because I didn't want to be a dead weight like half the people you encounter in WoW.

I certainly didn't jump right into 25 man Naxx a day after I hit 80, I would've been much too self conscious. You should have to take the time to gear up in heroics before entering a raid setting, especially a 25 man. It's common sense to make sure you're almost done with one tier of content before moving forward to the next(or in the case of heroics -> 25 mans, two steps forward.)

If you're flat out lazy enough to enter a 25 man raid without being hit capped, of all things, which can be attained via quest rewards, then you should be met with complete and utter failure in a raid. You're confusing the phrase "entry-level raid" with "entry-level 80 content". Naxxramas may currently be an entry level raid, however, it is not entry level content, and shouldn't be treated as such. Currently in WotLK, heroics are entry level 80 content.

I'm sorry if you're, again, too lazy to spend a week or two at most gearing up in heroics, I really am. If you are one of those people, MMOs probably aren't for you. However, just because you're too lazy, doesn't mean everyone else was, and you shouldn't inflict your abysmal damage/healing/tanking on those nine to twenty-four other people in the raid, just because you want to be selfish and save yourself a week of time on a game.