Tigole moves on

[aurik]

I don't think Blizzard should assume that the average player is retarded and/or ignorant enough not to be hit capped in a raid setting(Even if the majority of players are 12 year old downs kids.) That's simply ludicrous.

...

If you're flat out lazy enough to enter a 25 man raid without being hit capped, of all things, which can be attained via quest rewards, then you should be met with complete and utter failure in a raid. You're confusing the phrase "entry-level raid" with "entry-level 80 content". Naxxramas may currently be an entry level raid, however, it is not entry level content, and shouldn't be treated as such. Currently in WotLK, heroics are entry level 80 content.

Unfortunately, this is the reality of what will happen if you tune naxx10/25 fights to require actual, real pre-thought into gearing and speccing strategies:

Casual Player will hit 80
Casual Player will join a pickup naxx
Casual Player will wipe to Patchwerk
Casual Player will wipe to Anub'rekhan
Casual Player will wipe to Noth
Casual Player will wipe to Razuvious
Casual Player will give up and never raid again.

What Blizzard wants is absolutely fresh new-to-the-raid-scene players to have a taste of a little bit of success, before slamming them over the head with a Razorgore or Vaelstrasz. If the casual player beats a few encounters, he might have the opportunity to look at the fight stats and say, hmm, why is that other dude always beating me on the dps meters? If the raid just wipes their way out of the instance, he will never have that chance.

[EternityEnd]

Unfortunately, this is the reality of what will happen if you tune naxx10/25 fights to require actual, real pre-thought into gearing and speccing strategies

People don't give up on addictions quite so easily. If the people you're talking to would quit after one wipe to a raid they aren't nearly prepared for, then I would really hate to see how they deal with real life. It just doesn't work that way unless said player is literally 12 years old, and, last I checked, being 12 is against the ToS.

Also, saying this "player", who is, from what I've gathered, less intelligent than even the most retarded of PUGs I've had, will look at the meters and question why he is so atrocious... I'm sorry, hasn't he had 79 levels to do so? Fact: Every single player instances before they hit 80, many times, no matter how linear their play time may be. He's going to have been disappointed by meters prior to this, and hopefully looked up how to play his class a bit.

[Norellicus]

People don't give up on addictions quite so easily. If the people you're talking to would quit after one wipe to a raid they aren't nearly prepared for, then I would really hate to see how they deal with real life. It just doesn't work that way unless said player is literally 12 years old, and, last I checked, being 12 is against the ToS.

Also, saying this "player", who is, from what I've gathered, less intelligent than even the most retarded of PUGs I've had, will look at the meters and question why he is so atrocious... I'm sorry, hasn't he had 79 levels to do so? Fact: Every single player instances before they hit 80, many times, no matter how linear their play time may be. He's going to have been disappointed by meters prior to this, and hopefully looked up how to play his class a bit.

Except most intelligent players will inform said person when he inquires about his sub-par meters at 73 that meters aren't really something to be concerned with until 80 (which is technically sound wisdom...every class is shaped and molded around the max level scope; anything short of that and one class almost always dominates due to a specific ability they get at some point in the mix before another one does).

[aurik]

People don't give up on addictions quite so easily. If the people you're talking to would quit after one wipe to a raid they aren't nearly prepared for, then I would really hate to see how they deal with real life. It just doesn't work that way unless said player is literally 12 years old, and, last I checked, being 12 is against the ToS.

A lot of them will stop raiding, because they're not addicts. The addicts are the ones that read message boards obsessively and already know the fights and how to gear appropriately.

Also, saying this "player", who is, from what I've gathered, less intelligent than even the most retarded of PUGs I've had, will look at the meters and question why he is so atrocious... I'm sorry, hasn't he had 79 levels to do so? Fact: Every single player instances before they hit 80, many times, no matter how linear their play time may be. He's going to have been disappointed by meters prior to this, and hopefully looked up how to play his class a bit.

Not always is this player particularly less intelligent, and actually may be putting out decent dps and have a reasonable spec for raiding. But when it requires 24 other pickup people to also meet a high standard, the pickup group is going to wipe no matter how well geared or prepared he is. Unless the group has some success in order to balance the failure, it becomes a lot harder to diagnose why they are failing in the first place.

So, that's a bad assumption.

Not everyone does many instances before 80, and instances are only a very vague indicator of raid performance because of the very different conditions that exist in dungeons compared to raids. For example, for many specs while leveling, hit rating is pretty much a waste of time. I think my shaman went to a grand total of 4 instances from 1-79, of which 2 were several levels above me because we were being carried by a 79 hunter and 80 warlock, so as a diagnostic tool were completely useless.

So, that's a bad assumption.

[Plow]

A couple days ago I got Malygos staff for my mage.

It allowed me to stay hit cap while bringing in some more crit, bumping me to damn near 15.5%! All this with a mind blowing 1610 sp.


Yeap, clearly all our "entry level" raid content is tuned perfectly, and clearly players that will actually use the gear for anything more than dragging down someone's non-entry level raid would get screwed if it were any tougher.

God forbid someone other than the leader have to take 10 minutes out of their incredibly busy lives to see if their gear and talents are retarded.

[aurik]

A couple days ago I got Malygos staff for my mage.

It allowed me to stay hit cap while bringing in some more crit, bumping me to damn near 15.5%! All this with a mind blowing 1610 sp.

Yeap, clearly all our "entry level" raid content is tuned perfectly, and clearly players that will actually use the gear for anything more than dragging down someone's non-entry level raid would get screwed if it were any tougher.

God forbid someone other than the leader have to take 10 minutes out of their incredibly busy lives to see if their gear and talents are retarded.

Now even Malygos is under-tuned? Get real. Your desire to lock out all but the most dedicated from all raiding is retarded.

I just did a full Naxx10 with a very new guild to raiding. Some of them knew the fights, some did not, we struggled through and had a good time. 5 hours later, KT died, and a bunch of people got the achievement.

You're telling me these people don't deserve to raid. My response? Fuck you.

[Plow]

Now even Malygos is under-tuned? Get real. Your desire to lock out all but the most dedicated from all raiding is retarded.

I just did a full Naxx10 with a very new guild to raiding. Some of them knew the fights, some did not, we struggled through and had a good time. 5 hours later, KT died, and a bunch of people got the achievement.

You're telling me these people don't deserve to raid. My response? Fuck you.

Pointless to discuss when your view is that anyone saying the shit should be more challenging is saying you don't deserve to raid.


http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...naxxishard.jpg

Give 25 man buffs, and they're all over 2.5k dps except the ele shaman in quest greens. I believe I had 1608 SP unbuffed at that point, hadn't enchanted maly 25 shoulders yet and didn't have new gloves gemmed/enchanted and I'm at 1698 with that stuff done now.


People that fail at frogger 16 times should definitely be walking straight through Naxx effortlessly. Except frogger, of course.


Really? You're raiding with people worse than that, and you don't at ALL get the impression that they should be exerting a *little* more effort to clear the only damn content there is in the game?


that's a prot war, btw, with ~35k hp buffed, i.e. enough to tank a 10 man frogger slime

oh and we got safety dance with 2 healers, he was our OT, he got hit 14 times in heigan which depending on positioning is right about 10 fails


edit: Point is, I'm not saying anybody doesn't deserve to raid. I'm not saying people should have to grind endlessly for months to clear the next boss. I'm just saying it went a little too far in the opposite direction. If you want a raid people can walk into 20 minutes after hitting 80 and clear, hell, that's fine too. It's just absurd for that to be basically the only content available. Is it really that much to ask that we get content that asks for at least the slightest clue or bit of attentiveness?

[Correction]

A couple days ago I got Malygos staff for my mage.

It allowed me to stay hit cap while bringing in some more crit, bumping me to damn near 15.5%! All this with a mind blowing 1610 sp.


Yeap, clearly all our "entry level" raid content is tuned perfectly, and clearly players that will actually use the gear for anything more than dragging down someone's non-entry level raid would get screwed if it were any tougher.

God forbid someone other than the leader have to take 10 minutes out of their incredibly busy lives to see if their gear and talents are retarded.

People have been carrying undergeared players through raids from Onyxia to Illidan. Mages press two buttons on Malygos and move from shiny purple dome to shiny purple dome, ranged DPS is the most braindead part of that entire encounter. Even melee have harder jobs.

Had all of the DPS in your Malygos group been similarly geared I'm 100% positive your story would have been "I spent 3 hours wiping and paid 70 gold in repairs."

You're not doing a good job of showing that Malygos isn't hard enough.

[EternityEnd]

If your mages press two buttons, that's probably why they're doing so bad. Compared to other classes, mage DPS is hardly brain dead. Not saying it takes anything but common sense, but really, no classes are "hard" in WoW.

[Correction]

Grobb requires more movement out of Ranged DPS than Malygos does. DPS is braindead when nothing threatens your DPS rotation for more than 3 seconds at a time.

[EternityEnd]

By that logic, melee DPS is also brain dead for Malygos. The only part they have to play follow-the-trash-mob-and-kill-it is Phase 2. Mastering surf boards doesn't require complex thought.

[Correction]

It's still more work than ranged dps has to do. And if you're a death knight you have one additional button to push.

Which is still washing aside the whole point of: If you have one undergeared mage at Malygos, you can win. It's tuned that way, being an introductory level raid where one member's performance won't ruin the run. If you have 5 undergeared DPS the story changes and you will likely wipe, especially if the people in charge of being main assists on Scions or rooting/pulling sparks to the dps ALSO have to herd around those underperformers.

[aers]

It's still more work than ranged dps has to do. And if you're a death knight you have one additional button to push.

Which is still washing aside the whole point of: If you have one undergeared mage at Malygos, you can win. It's tuned that way, being an introductory level raid where one member's performance won't ruin the run. If you have 5 undergeared DPS the story changes and you will likely wipe, especially if the people in charge of being main assists on Scions or rooting/pulling sparks to the dps ALSO have to herd around those underperformers.

Having done Malygos 25 multiple times with 5 underperforming dps and no DK to even do the spark shit, I'm going to have to say you're wrong.

[Correction]

"Underperforming" is relative to the gap left by your highest DPS. Yeah if you're raid consists of 15 6kDPS members you have wiggle room underneath the 'underperform' threshold. I'd wager to say such formations are rare. At least, they don't exist on my realm.

[aurik]

Pointless to discuss when your view is that anyone saying the shit should be more challenging is saying you don't deserve to raid.

But, that's exactly what you're saying. If the fights were tuned any harder, the group I was with last night would not have been successful--we would have wiped out on Anub'Rekhan and probably broken. And if we can't even get a foot in the door of the easiest raid, where do we go from there?

For an entry-level raid, that would be poor design. At least with some moderate success, people had the courage to get up and try again when we wiped 3 times to Gothik.

Also, pro-tip: 25man fights are, with a couple of exceptions, palpably easier than the 10-man versions. More raid buffs, more room for error, higher healer-to-player ratio. Oh, and better loot, too.

[Plow]

It's still more work than ranged dps has to do. And if you're a death knight you have one additional button to push.

Which is still washing aside the whole point of: If you have one undergeared mage at Malygos, you can win. It's tuned that way, being an introductory level raid where one member's performance won't ruin the run. If you have 5 undergeared DPS the story changes and you will likely wipe, especially if the people in charge of being main assists on Scions or rooting/pulling sparks to the dps ALSO have to herd around those underperformers.

This was a semi-pug.

Basically, all of them but me were decently geared, nobody amazingly geared. Here's where it gets fun: I could tell after the first attempt that it was all people that had done it-- but been carried through by people that actually had a clue.

I had to show the tank how it actually works. I had to kill the sparks when they got close because melee were tunnel visioning. I had to do the healing on part 3 cuz nobody else knew how. etc.

And this is supposed to be tough?

But, that's exactly what you're saying. If the fights were tuned any harder, the group I was with last night would not have been successful--we would have wiped out on Anub'Rekhan and probably broken. And if we can't even get a foot in the door of the easiest raid, where do we go from there?

I dunno, maybe to some 5 mans and heroics to get the gear to not wipe on one of the easiest fights in the history of WoW?

For an entry-level raid, that would be poor design. At least with some moderate success, people had the courage to get up and try again when we wiped 3 times to Gothik.

Why would it be poor design to ask people to actually go through the damn progression the way it was built to be done? Is it REALLY that much to ask that people put in a couple days work and are a tiny bit aware of what's going on around them? Or at least need a few people in good 25 man gear if they want to get carried through in their quest greens?

Also, pro-tip: 25man fights are, with a couple of exceptions, palpably easier than the 10-man versions. More raid buffs, more room for error, higher healer-to-player ratio. Oh, and better loot, too.

I believed that too, until I actually did all the content on 25 man. Hi2u less whelps and elems in sarth. Wall hallo thar mc orbs. How's it going, people that aren't ever mind controlled @ KT. Supsupsup tank getting breathed on immediately upon landing after vortex. Etc, etc, etc.

The only fight that I'd believe was harder on 10 man at this point is sarth+3d, and, well, I was there the other day with a warrior tank that's in very good but not amazing gear tanking sarth and doing just dandy. Try having a war in every bis eat a 200% dmg sarth breath with -25% hp in 25 man, see how that turns out.

They actually did a pretty amazing job of not making the 10 mans way easier, without making them too hard to be done in exclusively i200 gear, I'll give em that.

[FailureMidgard]

The point of an entry-level raid is to be a stepping stone to harder raids. I'm sorry Aurik, but I think you keep missing that part. You are right that some people miss the fact that it is entry level, but entry-level doesn't mean make it too easy. People should be required to get a basic rotation down in order to meet the DPS requirements. Auto-shot hunters should not be doing enough DPS. A mage that casts fireball, then stares at the TV for 5 seconds, then casts fireball again should not be doing enough DPS.

[Plow]

Also, it's too bad there's not like a multitude of lower level raids people could check out and practice on if they're not prepared for level 80 stuff or anything.

I mean, the people that won't put in a few days running 5 mans and a few minutes looking up a spec and rotation SURELY wouldn't be just raiding for loot and therefore unwilling to do raids that wouldn't give them zomg leet epics... right?

[Correction]

The point of an entry-level raid is to be a stepping stone to harder raids. I'm sorry Aurik, but I think you keep missing that part. You are right that some people miss the fact that it is entry level, but entry-level doesn't mean make it too easy. People should be required to get a basic rotation down in order to meet the DPS requirements. Auto-shot hunters should not be doing enough DPS. A mage that casts fireball, then stares at the TV for 5 seconds, then casts fireball again should not be doing enough DPS.

Nobody is forcing anybody to take such players along to sarth/naxx. Any PUG with members who don't like to waste their time will not bring such players back again next week. Difficulty aside, quality of playtime and how it is valued is definitely filtering out such terribads and I'm glad it's up to my raid leaders, and not the encounter's design (sup Muru) that dictate membership.

[FailureMidgard]

Nobody is forcing anybody to take such players along to sarth/naxx. Any PUG with members who don't like to waste their time will not bring such players back again next week. Difficulty aside, quality of playtime and how it is valued is definitely filtering out such terribads and I'm glad it's up to my raid leaders, and not the encounter's design (sup Muru) that dictate membership.

If those players caused them any inconvenience, they wouldn't bring them back again next week, but due to how easy the content is, why not bring them? You don't need to do more than autoshot as a hunter to meet the DPS requirement.

Encounters should dictate design, to a point. Clearly Muru would be going too far. However, Naxxramas currently is not far enough. There is a middle ground between them.