Tigole moves on

[aurik]

I dunno, maybe to some 5 mans and heroics to get the gear to not wipe on one of the easiest fights in the history of WoW?

Why would it be poor design to ask people to actually go through the damn progression the way it was built to be done? Is it REALLY that much to ask that people put in a couple days work and are a tiny bit aware of what's going on around them? Or at least need a few people in good 25 man gear if they want to get carried through in their quest greens?

Most of our group was heroic geared, blues and purps. A couple had one or two 213s. Gear wasn't the problem. The problem was that these people weren't used to the complexity that comes with a 10-man fight, they weren't used to the higher boss lvl and longer duration fights that ensue. How exactly are you supposed to practice for that in heroics?

I believed that too, until I actually did all the content on 25 man. Hi2u less whelps and elems in sarth. Wall hallo thar mc orbs. How's it going, people that aren't ever mind controlled @ KT. Supsupsup tank getting breathed on immediately upon landing after vortex. Etc, etc, etc.

I've done all the content on 25-man, except never managed to get a success on Maly-25 yet. The content by and large is most definitely easier on 25, with the notable exception of Thaddius.

Even where there are extra gimmicks, almost all of them are trivialized by the fact you can rely on so many more buffs, tanks, healers, etc.

Let's enumerate. Typical pug is 3 tanks, 6-7 healers in 25 man.

Anub'rekhan: not significantly different in 25; more resources in 25 means less issues if people are retarded and die, and a higher healer-to-damage ratio.

Faerlina: not significantly different in 25. More resources makes this fight easier, as more healers makes it easier to heal through rage; more tanks means that Faerlina flooring the MT isn't as big of an issue.

Maexxna: wraps 2 people instead of 1, but there are more dps available to cut people out. Virtually assured heroism for <35%. Guaranteed to have multiple cleansers and cleansing methods, including totems and abolish which are passive cleansing during web.

Noth: blinks during ground phase, curses more people. A single dedicated decurser can still clean the entire raid before the curse procs; in 25-man, likely to have many people able to decurse. Multiple tanks to pick up the adds helps. More resources means less issues if people are retarded and die, and a higher healer-to-damage ratio.

Heigen: More resources means less issues if people are retarded and die, and a higher healer-to-damage ratio. Multiple disease cleansers, and a good chance at an enh shaman, which ought to make disease a complete non-issue.

Loatheb: Higher healer-to-damage ratio makes this fight a lot easier in 25-man.

Raz: The only thing trickier about this in 25-man vs 10-man is you are virtually required to have 2 priests, whereas the 10-man can be done without any priests whatsoever. But Blizzard has commented that they regret requiring 2 priests for this fight.

Gothik: Easier to balance sides in 25-man, whereas often the best division in 10-man requires nonintuitive stacking (like 4:6 with the best 2 dps and healer on the live side). More resources means less issues if people are retarded and die, and a higher healer-to-damage ratio.

4H: In 25, virtually guaranteed heroism for bursting down the meteor horseman right off the bat. 6 healers mean it's easy to go 2-3 in the back with plenty for the front. In 10-man, 2-healing this in a pug is a challenge.

Patchwerk: same per-player dps target with a full array of buffs instead of a partial array. MT can still be solo-healed with ease, which means 5-6 healers on the 2 OTs rather than 1-2 on 1 OT. Also, PW picks the healthiest of the 2 OTs to pick on, so he will flip-flop targets if he fully lands consecutive attacks--gives your OTs a longer TTL. In 10-man, he will generally just repeatedly slam the OT.

Grobbulus: only 1/25th of your raid is running off to safely cleanse, instead of 1/10th. 2 tanks to deal with slimes. It's only harder when you account for the fact that 15 extra people almost surely includes a few retards.

Gluth: practically guaranteed to have multiple earthbind/frost traps for kiting, and a frost nova and holy wrath for decimate, and 3 tanks means one can be dedicated to kiting, whereas in 10-man both are generally used for clearing mortal wound stacks. Tighter enrage on 10man.

Thaddius: harder in 25 man due to the tighter enrage.

Sapphiron: 3 iceblocks instead of 2--easier to find an iceblock during the flight phase, and less likely to have 3/3 iceblock casualties which is an instant failure. I've often had to run a long way to a block in 10-man. Virtually guaranteed to have frost resistance aura or totem available. More decursers available. Higher healer:damage ratio helps combat the frost aura, and is less crippling if retards get themselves killed.

Kel'Thuzad: More healers for the same amount of iceblocks. Moderately harder to stay spread apart, due to room density. Mind control is not a very dangerous gimmick at all, easily offset by the higher density of healers and lots of available CC.

Sarth: more adds offset by the virtual guarantee of anesthetic fan of knives or other de-rage tactics. Usually there is an OT who can be dedicated to adds. Higher healer:damage ratio, etc.

Maly: higher healer:damage ratio helps a lot with vortex. Virtually guaranteed DG for manipulating sparks. Multiple tanks for the ground in phase 2. Since drake healing is primarly done with the AoE ability, 2 healer drakes can sustain a 25-man raid better than 1 healer drake can sustain a 10-man raid. Pretty sure they changed the Malygos re-engage time in both 25 and 10 so that he doesn't floor the tank right after vortex.

[Korietsu]

If your mages press two buttons, that's probably why they're doing so bad. Compared to other classes, mage DPS is hardly brain dead. Not saying it takes anything but common sense, but really, no classes are "hard" in WoW.

Nope, mage DPS is retardedly easy, its the equivalent of a combat rogue. PRESS SINISTER STRIKE MORE.

Frost. 1 button, 3 every 2 min + a cold snap on bloodlust. Add an extra if your pet summon macro doesn't have /attack target.

Fire 4 buttons, 6 during bloodlust, 2 extra every two min.

Arcane 2(3) buttons. Up to 6 during bloodlust.

When I see DK's in 25 man pieces / rest greens pulling 900 DPS (less than what I do as a MT) in 10 man sarth, and then complaining about being kicked, there's a problem. They got carried, and they don't deserve the gear they have, end of story. Naxx/OS/Maly should have had a 35 badge of heroism attunement, so people at least could have l2p'd.

[Plow]

Most of our group was heroic geared, blues and purps. A couple had one or two 213s. Gear wasn't the problem. The problem was that these people weren't used to the complexity that comes with a 10-man fight, they weren't used to the higher boss lvl and longer duration fights that ensue. How exactly are you supposed to practice for that in heroics?

Many heroic boss fights are vastly more complex than typical raid fights.

You practice by figuring out a good rotation, getting good at seeing your procs and knowing how to use them, and not standing in the fire. It's not suddenly way more complicated because there's 5 more people.

I've done all the content on 25-man, except never managed to get a success on Maly-25 yet. The content by and large is most definitely easier on 25, with the notable exception of Thaddius.

Even where there are extra gimmicks, almost all of them are trivialized by the fact you can rely on so many more buffs, tanks, healers, etc.

Let's enumerate. Typical pug is 3 tanks, 6-7 healers in 25 man.

First off, I have to point out here that for a math expert, you're failing pretty hard at math.

10 man- 2 tanks, 3 heals, 5 dps. 20% tanks, 30% heals, 50% dps.

25 man- 3 tanks, 6 heals, 16 dps. 12% tanks, 24% heals, 64% dps... wait, I'll be generous.

25 man- 4 tanks (lawl), 7 heals (lawl), 14 dps. 16% tanks, 28% heals, 56% dps.


Please, as a math expert, explain to me how that comes out to a higher ratio of healers to dps. Are you using 8-10 healers or something?

Anub'rekhan: not significantly different in 25; more resources in 25 means less issues if people are retarded and die, and a higher healer-to-damage ratio.

a. math failure
b. there's more adds, and they're there from the start

Faerlina: not significantly different in 25. More resources makes this fight easier, as more healers makes it easier to heal through rage; more tanks means that Faerlina flooring the MT isn't as big of an issue.

Other than the math failure, you're pretty much right about Faerlina. Except the part where she hits significantly harder, adds do more damage, rain does more damage, and contrary to the argument you're trying to make throughout your entire post, there are less healers per raid member.

Maexxna: wraps 2 people instead of 1, but there are more dps available to cut people out. Virtually assured heroism for <35%. Guaranteed to have multiple cleansers and cleansing methods, including totems and abolish which are passive cleansing during web.

Being assured of poison totem helps. Other than that, same deal, math failure, plus everything she does hits harder, more spiders which also hit harder, yada yada.

Noth: blinks during ground phase, curses more people. A single dedicated decurser can still clean the entire raid before the curse procs; in 25-man, likely to have many people able to decurse. Multiple tanks to pick up the adds helps. More resources means less issues if people are retarded and die, and a higher healer-to-damage ratio.

Significantly less adds on 10 man, yet again you're using the failed math argument, decursing is more than easily handled by 1 competent person, etc.

Heigen: More resources means less issues if people are retarded and die, and a higher healer-to-damage ratio. Multiple disease cleansers, and a good chance at an enh shaman, which ought to make disease a complete non-issue.

Disease is weak enough to heal through in 10 man with the negligible tank dmg, more people makes it harder to see the ground, and, once again, using the failed math as your argument.

Loatheb: Higher healer-to-damage ratio makes this fight a lot easier in 25-man.

Seriously, you'd think if something is going to be your primary argument for every single point you make, you'd actually do the math real quick in your head first. Once again, fail.

Also takes more coordination in healing 25 people than 10, getting spores on everyone consistently, etc.

Raz: The only thing trickier about this in 25-man vs 10-man is you are virtually required to have 2 priests, whereas the 10-man can be done without any priests whatsoever. But Blizzard has commented that they regret requiring 2 priests for this fight.

2 *GOOD* priests. Retarded priests will fuck your raid in a heartbeat in this fight, as will retarded offtanks that let them die. Your math actually works out on this fight (the one you didn't use it on lol...), since the aoe dmg is virtually meaningless and there's more healers focused on the 2 targets at a time.

Gothik: Easier to balance sides in 25-man, whereas often the best division in 10-man requires nonintuitive stacking (like 4:6 with the best 2 dps and healer on the live side). More resources means less issues if people are retarded and die, and a higher healer-to-damage ratio.

Yeah, gothik 10 is a joke. You can put 1 dps on live side and do it np if they're good. Seriously, I'm sorry that your group is having problems, but gothik is an incredibly easy fight, it simply requires awareness.

4H: In 25, virtually guaranteed heroism for bursting down the meteor horseman right off the bat. 6 healers mean it's easy to go 2-3 in the back with plenty for the front. In 10-man, 2-healing this in a pug is a challenge.

That's funny, I did it last night with a pug using 2 healers with dps in greens and shit-- we sent one of the healers to the back, kept the other with thane, and put an ele shaman in greens healing the baron side. Yeap, we actively chose to forgo heroism and do a simple swap to fill in a gap while running with a sub-optimal setup.

And I suppose that's way too deep to expect of the "final" encounter before sapph/kt? Especially of a group that can clear it all with 2 healers?

Patchwerk: same per-player dps target with a full array of buffs instead of a partial array. MT can still be solo-healed with ease, which means 5-6 healers on the 2 OTs rather than 1-2 on 1 OT. Also, PW picks the healthiest of the 2 OTs to pick on, so he will flip-flop targets if he fully lands consecutive attacks--gives your OTs a longer TTL. In 10-man, he will generally just repeatedly slam the OT.

CHECK YOUR MATH GDI YOU'RE THE MATH EXPERT

Patch 10 = 4.32 mil

2.5 x 4.32 = 10.8

Patch 25 = 13.03m

These numbers are not equal.

He also hatefuls twice as often, for twice as much damage. So, no, the OT's TTL is lower in 25.

Grobbulus: only 1/25th of your raid is running off to safely cleanse, instead of 1/10th. 2 tanks to deal with slimes. It's only harder when you account for the fact that 15 extra people almost surely includes a few retards.

Same deal as patch, you're right about the less lost time to running to drop disease, but there's also more than 2.5x as much hp on both him and his adds, as well as more damage output on the tank, and the whole issue of positioning 15-20 ranged without getting add aoe into them as compared to 6-7.

Gluth: practically guaranteed to have multiple earthbind/frost traps for kiting, and a frost nova and holy wrath for decimate, and 3 tanks means one can be dedicated to kiting, whereas in 10-man both are generally used for clearing mortal wound stacks. Tighter enrage on 10man.

2.5x as many people, 3x as many adds, you do the math.

Thaddius: harder in 25 man due to the tighter enrage.

mmmmmk

Sapphiron: 3 iceblocks instead of 2--easier to find an iceblock during the flight phase, and less likely to have 3/3 iceblock casualties which is an instant failure. I've often had to run a long way to a block in 10-man. Virtually guaranteed to have frost resistance aura or totem available. More decursers available. Higher healer:damage ratio helps combat the frost aura, and is less crippling if retards get themselves killed.

Harder to get 25 people spread out 15 yards from each other while staying close enough together to get to an ice block if they end up at the far end.

Once again, failed math. And, not only is there a lower ratio of healers to raid members, but the aura is doing more damage per target.

Kel'Thuzad: More healers for the same amount of iceblocks. Moderately harder to stay spread apart, due to room density. Mind control is not a very dangerous gimmick at all, easily offset by the higher density of healers and lots of available CC.

Right, tell me how not dangerous mind control is when you have ice block hit someone that's out of position from being mc'd and half the raid gets raped. Not to mention more adds, which hit hard enough that MT can't tank them, making it impossible to avoid the risk of your add tank getting ice blocked.

Sarth: more adds offset by the virtual guarantee of anesthetic fan of knives or other de-rage tactics. Usually there is an OT who can be dedicated to adds. Higher healer:damage ratio, etc.

Sarth 3d may or may not be harder on 10 man. It's slightly more strenuous on simple raid setup, but it requires less dps, hps, max health, etc. That one's probably a push, really.

Maly: higher healer:damage ratio helps a lot with vortex. Virtually guaranteed DG for manipulating sparks. Multiple tanks for the ground in phase 2. Since drake healing is primarly done with the AoE ability, 2 healer drakes can sustain a 25-man raid better than 1 healer drake can sustain a 10-man raid. Pretty sure they changed the Malygos re-engage time in both 25 and 10 so that he doesn't floor the tank right after vortex.

Failed math doesn't help with anything. Who the hell uses multiple tanks for maly? 1 healer can do phase 3 extremely easily in 10 man if people aren't being stupid. More people for vortex taking more damage per person, but I'll give you that it's a pain in the ass to work with pally and shaman healers in 10.

10 man has always had a chance to top tank off before breath, 25 man barely allows time for tank to turn him.

Nope, mage DPS is retardedly easy, its the equivalent of a combat rogue. PRESS SINISTER STRIKE MORE.

Frost. 1 button, 3 every 2 min + a cold snap on bloodlust. Add an extra if your pet summon macro doesn't have /attack target.

Fire 4 buttons, 6 during bloodlust, 2 extra every two min.

Arcane 2(3) buttons. Up to 6 during bloodlust.

When I see DK's in 25 man pieces / rest greens pulling 900 DPS (less than what I do as a MT) in 10 man sarth, and then complaining about being kicked, there's a problem. They got carried, and they don't deserve the gear they have, end of story. Naxx/OS/Maly should have had a 35 badge of heroism attunement, so people at least could have l2p'd.

While I take issue with the rogue comment (combat rogue is the most intricate and rewarding dps experience in the game), you're right about how easy mage is.

As arcane I Blast 3 times (hit cap means I don't even have to make sure they land, if I go with 2 stacks 1/1000 times I'll survive), missile if barrage procs, AB if not, rinse and repeat. Time pom/ap/iv/mirror/evo/gem intelligently and... that's bout it.

[EternityEnd]

Nope, mage DPS is retardedly easy, its the equivalent of a combat rogue. PRESS SINISTER STRIKE MORE.

Frost. 1 button, 3 every 2 min + a cold snap on bloodlust. Add an extra if your pet summon macro doesn't have /attack target.

Fire 4 buttons, 6 during bloodlust, 2 extra every two min.

Arcane 2(3) buttons. Up to 6 during bloodlust.

The same can be said for almost any class/spec. DPS, Healer, Tank or otherwise. Difference being, even with simple rotations down, a bad Arcane mage will go OOM in 30 seconds, probably counting Evocation. A good one will last forever managing CDs.

But again, saying any class in WoW is more complex than "push a few buttons lulz o an dun run outa resourchus" is absurd. Any player should be able to grasp how to DPS in a raid, especially if they "know their rotations" and have heroic gear. If you're doing 2k DPS in a 25man with Heroic blues and epics, then you don't know your rotations. Tanks should be able to do more than that fully raid buffed, and most do.

[aurik]

Many heroic boss fights are vastly more complex than typical raid fights.

L O L

First off, I have to point out here that for a math expert, you're failing pretty hard at math.

10 man- 2 tanks, 3 heals, 5 dps. 20% tanks, 30% heals, 50% dps.

25 man- 3 tanks, 6 heals, 16 dps. 12% tanks, 24% heals, 64% dps... wait, I'll be generous.

25 man- 4 tanks (lawl), 7 heals (lawl), 14 dps. 16% tanks, 28% heals, 56% dps.

Please, as a math expert, explain to me how that comes out to a higher ratio of healers to dps. Are you using 8-10 healers or something?

Most pure pugs aren't successful without 7. Even then, realise that that's over twice as many healers for not nearly twice as much damage. Most fights don't scale in damage as fast as the playercount increases, and the majority of damage is still soaked by up to 3 people--since by we're already overhealing, most of the damage increase isn't even noticeable!

b. there's more adds, and they're there from the start

What? The adds aren't the make-or-break part of the fight. The tough part of the fight is coordinating the Locust Swarm, which is no more difficult in 25 than 10. And in 25, you have more resources so losing 1-2 people barely changes your chances of winning.

Other than the math failure, you're pretty much right about Faerlina. Except the part where she hits significantly harder, adds do more damage, rain does more damage, and contrary to the argument you're trying to make throughout your entire post, there are less healers per raid member.

The rain does almost no damage on either difficulty. You don't even have to move out from under it, a single rejuvenation will overheal it. One tank can take all the adds--they do on both 10 man and 25 man. Again, easier on 25-man because you have more resources.

Being assured of poison totem helps. Other than that, same deal, math failure, plus everything she does hits harder, more spiders which also hit harder, yada yada.

I can heal through 3-4 spider adds on 25, yeah those spiders are so dangerous. This isn't WoW 1.0 where you needed instant frost novas to prevent a raid wipe on her adds. She hits harder on a single person who has 5-7 healers keeping them topped up...

Significantly less adds on 10 man, yet again you're using the failed math argument, decursing is more than easily handled by 1 competent person, etc.

Again, the adds don't hit hard on both 10 and 25 man, you just need at least 1 competent person to corral them. Seeing as you get two in 25 man, that makes it...easier! Same with decursing--you have many more eyeballs, that makes it easier.

Disease is weak enough to heal through in 10 man with the negligible tank dmg, more people makes it harder to see the ground, and, once again, using the failed math as your argument.

More people makes it...harder to see the ground? Not sure why that is. 25-man is easier because there's a greater chance that at least ~4 people can dance, and that's all you really need to win this in heroic.

Also takes more coordination in healing 25 people than 10, getting spores on everyone consistently, etc.

This, along with Sapph, is probably the closest 25-man to 10-man as far as healer:damage ratio goes, because of the "everyone gets hit" nature of the Dooms; they do an extra 25% damage on heroic as well. But then, it is assumed that in 25man you're running shadow resistance. Also see the notes of "you're already overhealing" above for why the healer:damage ratio is actually favorable in 25-man.

2 *GOOD* priests. Retarded priests will fuck your raid in a heartbeat in this fight, as will retarded offtanks that let them die. Your math actually works out on this fight (the one you didn't use it on lol...), since the aoe dmg is virtually meaningless and there's more healers focused on the 2 targets at a time.

So basically you're agreeing with me on the one I didn't even bother to argue because it's so obvious. K.

Yeah, gothik 10 is a joke. You can put 1 dps on live side and do it np if they're good. Seriously, I'm sorry that your group is having problems, but gothik is an incredibly easy fight, it simply requires awareness.

And it's still easier on 25-man. At some point you seem to have forgotten the argument at hand.

That's funny, I did it last night with a pug using 2 healers with dps in greens and shit-- we sent one of the healers to the back, kept the other with thane, and put an ele shaman in greens healing the baron side. Yeap, we actively chose to forgo heroism and do a simple swap to fill in a gap while running with a sub-optimal setup.

And it's still easier on 25-man. At some point you seem to have forgotten the argument at hand.

And I suppose that's way too deep to expect of the "final" encounter before sapph/kt? Especially of a group that can clear it all with 2 healers?

And it's still easier on 25-man. At some point you seem to have forgotten the argument at hand.

CHECK YOUR MATH GDI YOU'RE THE MATH EXPERT

Patch 10 = 4.32 mil

2.5 x 4.32 = 10.8

Patch 25 = 13.03m

These numbers are not equal.

See earlier in the thread where I calculated the dps target for Patch on Normal and Heroic.

He also hatefuls twice as often, for twice as much damage. So, no, the OT's TTL is lower in 25.

Wrong. He hatefuls at the same rate, for a bit less than twice as much damage. He also ping-pongs between the two targets, which means that a given tank is taking a hateful only half as often for less than twice as much, with many more healers.

Same deal as patch, you're right about the less lost time to running to drop disease, but there's also more than 2.5x as much hp on both him and his adds, as well as more damage output on the tank, and the whole issue of positioning 15-20 ranged without getting add aoe into them as compared to 6-7.

Positioning is the exact same in 10 and 25, just you have to hammer it through 15 more thick skulls. On the other hand, you have more 2.5x damage (see again my patchwerk numbers) and it is much easier to control the slimes which, if your players aren't positioning wrong, still spawn one at a time despite there being 2.5x as many players.

2.5x as many people, 3x as many adds, you do the math.

3x as much frost trap / frost nova / earthbind, a dedicated tank for kiting, and many more sources of AoE for the same 50k hp zombies, the math says 25 is easier. Also the enrage timer on Gluth10 is very tight--my group from earlier this week had no problem beating patch's timer but if Gluth had eaten even a single chow, we would have raged him. YOU DO THE MATH!

mmmmmk

Harder to get 25 people spread out 15 yards from each other while staying close enough together to get to an ice block if they end up at the far end.

Once again, failed math. And, not only is there a lower ratio of healers to raid members, but the aura is doing more damage per target.

It does 33% more damage on heroic, which is mostly mitigated by the fact you're expected to be running higher resistance on heroic. "More damage / more difficult to avoid splash damage" is largely offset by the fact he only casts 3 frost bolts instead of the playercount-appropriate 5, not to mention it's easier to hide behind 3 than 2...

Right, tell me how not dangerous mind control is when you have ice block hit someone that's out of position from being mc'd and half the raid gets raped. Not to mention more adds, which hit hard enough that MT can't tank them, making it impossible to avoid the risk of your add tank getting ice blocked.

Half the raid gets raped by one Frost Blast because of one misplaced player? That said, with 6 healers you should be able to save at LEAST 3 people simultaneously, without prior coordination.

I've healed through a Frost Blasted OT taking 2 guardians several times...on normal. It's no different on Heroic where you have 2 tanks for 4 adds. In fact, it's easier, because you have more healers that can divert and spam-heal the particular OT that got blasted.

He only does MC like 2 or 3 times in a typical fight. It's a gimmick that occasionally has some unfair risk attached to it--like if he MC's both of the guardian tanks--rather than something that makes the fight substantially harder to offset the fact you get to bring 15 extra people. Again, with 15, losing a healer hurts, but can generally be recovered. With 10, losing a healer is often a wipe.

Failed math doesn't help with anything. Who the hell uses multiple tanks for maly? 1 healer can do phase 3 extremely easily in 10 man if people aren't being stupid. More people for vortex taking more damage per person, but I'll give you that it's a pain in the ass to work with pally and shaman healers in 10.

The melee adds in phase 2 hit really hard. Miss one and you're likely down a healer which usually means a wipe in 10-man. In 25-man, miss an add and you're likely down a healer which can often be battle-res'd, or simply done without.

10 man has always had a chance to top tank off before breath, 25 man barely allows time for tank to turn him.

Saw a blue post where they changed the timing between landing and attacking.

[Eaglestrike]

Most pugs I've been in attempt to 2 heal places, unless they are aware they're terrible and want 3 healers. So...20% heals!

[Plow]

L O L

Skadi compared to anything, OK... any... boss compared to anything, etc. I'm not saying every heroic fight is tough, but you're a fool if you think the average raid fight is as complex as a lot of the heroics ones.

Most pure pugs aren't successful without 7. Even then, realise that that's over twice as many healers for not nearly twice as much damage. Most fights don't scale in damage as fast as the playercount increases, and the majority of damage is still soaked by up to 3 people--since by we're already overhealing, most of the damage increase isn't even noticeable!

Anything that doesn't have aoe healing is easy for healers. Anything that does, you have a lower percentage of healers to people taking damage, and the damage taken per person is greater.

What? The adds aren't the make-or-break part of the fight. The tough part of the fight is coordinating the Locust Swarm, which is no more difficult in 25 than 10. And in 25, you have more resources so losing 1-2 people barely changes your chances of winning.

Last night with 2 healers, slowish dps group, tank just stood in locust swarm both times. Np, he got kinda low once in the 2nd one. Try that in 25 man where the damage is nearly double speed, and you have more other shit to heal.

The rain does almost no damage on either difficulty. You don't even have to move out from under it, a single rejuvenation will overheal it. One tank can take all the adds--they do on both 10 man and 25 man. Again, easier on 25-man because you have more resources.

Fine, Faerlina is no harder on 25 than on 10. Too bad she's fucking retardedly difficult and a group with shit dps can do mama said knock you out with 2 healers. (yeap, did that last night too)

I can heal through 3-4 spider adds on 25, yeah those spiders are so dangerous. This isn't WoW 1.0 where you needed instant frost novas to prevent a raid wipe on her adds. She hits harder on a single person who has 5-7 healers keeping them topped up...

The healers need to be healing webbed people, as well as the spiders actually requiring healing in response to them, not to mention they'll tear people up if they get loose while everyone's webbed. In 10 man a good mage or lock can literally tank and kill every single spider without ever needing a heal the entire fight if they don't get webbed.

Again, the adds don't hit hard on both 10 and 25 man, you just need at least 1 competent person to corral them. Seeing as you get two in 25 man, that makes it...easier! Same with decursing--you have many more eyeballs, that makes it easier.

The adds come from different places, you don't even have to stack properly to have the main tank tank them as well as noth on 10, just have everyone on the far side of the room with him aoe'ing as they cross him. You only need 1 decurse, that's just a silly arguement. And there's still the blink, and the more damage being done to main tank and add tanks.

More people makes it...harder to see the ground? Not sure why that is. 25-man is easier because there's a greater chance that at least ~4 people can dance, and that's all you really need to win this in heroic.

You don't understand why a bigass mass of people makes it hard to see the ground? Really?

And if you're going to use retarded ass arguments like "because there's a better chance a few people will not be worthless," every single argument you've made thus far is 100% out the window because it's harder to find 25 competent people that show up than 10, period.

You don't wanna go there.

This, along with Sapph, is probably the closest 25-man to 10-man as far as healer:damage ratio goes, because of the "everyone gets hit" nature of the Dooms; they do an extra 25% damage on heroic as well. But then, it is assumed that in 25man you're running shadow resistance. Also see the notes of "you're already overhealing" above for why the healer:damage ratio is actually favorable in 25-man.

You don't think it's assumed that in 10 man you're probably going to have 1 of the 2 of a paladin or a priest? Really? How the fuck are there decurse fights in 10 man then?

So basically you're agreeing with me on the one I didn't even bother to argue because it's so obvious. K.

ok?

And it's still easier on 25-man. At some point you seem to have forgotten the argument at hand.


And it's still easier on 25-man. At some point you seem to have forgotten the argument at hand.


And it's still easier on 25-man. At some point you seem to have forgotten the argument at hand.

Wow, those are some incredible arguments. I'd ask you to tell me more, but clearly there is none.

See earlier in the thread where I calculated the dps target for Patch on Normal and Heroic.

You mean the one part in your entire argument where you gave credit for having a proper raid with 6 healers 3 tanks and 16 dps?

Has it occurred to you that if a tank did half the dps of a real dps, threat would *NEVER* be an issue? You realize tanks have ~290% threat and most dps are anywhere from 50-80% threat values?

Sure, it's pretty close to the same. But, not quite, it's tuned just slightly higher to compensate for additional buffs you may or may not have for the 10 man.

Wrong. He hatefuls at the same rate, for a bit less than twice as much damage. He also ping-pongs between the two targets, which means that a given tank is taking a hateful only half as often for less than twice as much, with many more healers.

I'm about 90% certain from tanking, offtanking, and healing it that it's faster on 25 man, but it's near impossible to tell with an at least once a second ability.

The damage is damn near exactly twice as much split between 2 people, the ttl based on the damage alone difference would be hundredths of a second.

Positioning is the exact same in 10 and 25, just you have to hammer it through 15 more thick skulls. On the other hand, you have more 2.5x damage (see again my patchwerk numbers) and it is much easier to control the slimes which, if your players aren't positioning wrong, still spawn one at a time despite there being 2.5x as many players.

So what you're saying is... it's exactly the same except that there are 25 people to position around instead of 6. Are you really unaware enough of how the add tanks work on that fight to realize the difference there?

3x as much frost trap / frost nova / earthbind, a dedicated tank for kiting, and many more sources of AoE for the same 50k hp zombies, the math says 25 is easier. Also the enrage timer on Gluth10 is very tight--my group from earlier this week had no problem beating patch's timer but if Gluth had eaten even a single chow, we would have raged him. YOU DO THE MATH!

mmmmmk

That's some pretty incredible math you've got there, 2.5x as many people = 3x as many abilities. Fuck, we should just get 40 mans going again, then we'd have 50 people's worth of abilities!

Also, try looking at the actual mobs instead of believing WoWhead is 100% correct on everything, the adds have twice as much hp on 25 man. You don't necessarily have twice as much decent aoe, and there are 3 times as many mobs.

It does 33% more damage on heroic, which is mostly mitigated by the fact you're expected to be running higher resistance on heroic. "More damage / more difficult to avoid splash damage" is largely offset by the fact he only casts 3 frost bolts instead of the playercount-appropriate 5, not to mention it's easier to hide behind 3 than 2...

Again, you're expecting that they tune 10 mans around not having at least 1 out of 2 classes. Pretty amazing that this time you actually made this assumption on a decurse fight.

I mean, you are aware the resist buffs don't stack, right? Cuz you've mentioned that multiple times now...

How does the fact that he only casts 3 frost bolts make it less likely that you'll end up way the fuck away from them when you have to spread out a whole lot more exactly?

Half the raid gets raped by one Frost Blast because of one misplaced player? That said, with 6 healers you should be able to save at LEAST 3 people simultaneously, without prior coordination.

Unless he got mc'd and ran right on top of kt and chained your tank + every melee in the group...

I've healed through a Frost Blasted OT taking 2 guardians several times...on normal. It's no different on Heroic where you have 2 tanks for 4 adds. In fact, it's easier, because you have more healers that can divert and spam-heal the particular OT that got blasted.

And that makes it easier than not risking it at all how, exactly?

He only does MC like 2 or 3 times in a typical fight. It's a gimmick that occasionally has some unfair risk attached to it--like if he MC's both of the guardian tanks--rather than something that makes the fight substantially harder to offset the fact you get to bring 15 extra people. Again, with 15, losing a healer hurts, but can generally be recovered. With 10, losing a healer is often a wipe.

What the fuck? 2 or 3 times? Are you getting carried through some freakish 90 second KT kills or are you just utterly and completely oblivious to it since you sit there in tree form and do absolutely nothing in response to it?

The melee adds in phase 2 hit really hard. Miss one and you're likely down a healer which usually means a wipe in 10-man. In 25-man, miss an add and you're likely down a healer which can often be battle-res'd, or simply done without.

The melee adds in phase 2 take 15-20 seconds to get to the group, miss one and you fucking fail at tanking and should gtfo of maly.

Also, Maly can be 2 healed in 10 man rather easily, phase 2 ridiculously so. 1 healed phase 2 is pushing it, but manageable, especially for priest or druid.

Saw a blue post where they changed the timing between landing and attacking.

I haven't seen or heard anything about that, and he was definitely breathing faster after landing in 25 man last night than I've ever seen him in 10 man.



Of course, all of this could be summed up in "they tuned it specifically so that it's almost the exact same difficulty as far as the math goes given the proper item level rewards, there's simply more coordination, and many additional parts to fights in 25 man," but apparently you want to directly compare every fight and have that proven directly for every single one for some reason.

[Dezzimal]

What the fuck? 2 or 3 times? Are you getting carried through some freakish 90 second KT kills or are you just utterly and completely oblivious to it since you sit there in tree form and do absolutely nothing in response to it?

I'd call 2 or 3 times normal. Our kill this tuesday had zero MCs, and I can't recall one with more than 4 MCs.

[Plow]

Most pugs I've been in attempt to 2 heal places, unless they are aware they're terrible and want 3 healers. So...20% heals!

On blackrock our pugs are making legitimate Undying attempts, as well as +1 drake being more common than +0 now, taking 2 healers for that kind of stuff would not be wise.

I'd call 2 or 3 times normal. Our kill this tuesday had zero MCs, and I can't recall one with more than 4 MCs.

When I've done it there's people mc'd for around half the time I'd say, pretty sure the cooldown is around 45 seconds.

[Galaika]

On blackrock our pugs are making legitimate Undying attempts, as well as +1 drake being more common than +0 now, taking 2 healers for that kind of stuff would not be wise.




When I've done it there's people mc'd for around half the time I'd say, pretty sure the cooldown is around 45 seconds.

Yeah but he doesn't cast it every time it is up. Only had 2 lots of MC on both our last KT kills, and one of them was messy as hell.

[Slott]

Err... given equal gear trying to do 10 man as 25 man, 10 man is a walk in the park.

KT: In a 10 man, you can form a diamond around KT, so that if you have a main tank, they're on 1 end, and 3 other melee can be completely seperated from each other and the main tank, meaning only 1 person can be ice blocked at a time. Your offtank would be causing more harm to your group trying to DPS KT until adds come, than standing to the side spread out. In 25 man, you're almost guaranteed more than 1 person being ice blocked at a time, with KT aggro wiping every time he MCs (And yes, they're fixing that)

Your arguments about more decurses and such aren't completely validated. A decurser - druid, mage or resto shaman should be assumed to be in your group, as are a paladin or shaman for resist totems. As a feral druid, I've been the only decurser in a 10 man group. It's not hard, people need to understand that even as a DPS class, you need to do more than AMAGAD dps.
Same goes for 4 horsemen. Make that boomkin, shadowpriest or elemental shaman help heal on 4h.

Some adds on gothik gain cleave on heroic difficulty, making positioning a little bit more significant.

Patchwerk - Complete joke on 10 man. I bet a holy paladin with beacon can keep a MT and OT up. On heroic, he can down an offtank rather quickly.

Gluth - a hunter or mage can kite the zombie adds rather easily. having an extra tank doesn't help, since the stacks the zombies give is rather worthless. Having a ranged DPS class like hunter or mage which can pull mobs quickly (Arrow, shoot a spell) is much more efficient than relying on taunt, faerie fire, heroic throw or whatever. Easy on both fights. Again, your dps need to realize they're more than DPS. Given my own experiences, I'd say 25 man's are harder due to more people involved, more coordination needed, and a faster chance of dying if a tank misses an add, a cleave goes wrong or something of the sort in both Naxx and Malygos.

10 man 3 drake sartharion on the other hand, is significantly harder than the 25 man version.

[FailureMidgard]

Err... given equal gear trying to do 10 man as 25 man, 10 man is a walk in the park.

KT: In a 10 man, you can form a diamond around KT, so that if you have a main tank, they're on 1 end, and 3 other melee can be completely seperated from each other and the main tank, meaning only 1 person can be ice blocked at a time. Your offtank would be causing more harm to your group trying to DPS KT until adds come, than standing to the side spread out. In 25 man, you're almost guaranteed more than 1 person being ice blocked at a time, with KT aggro wiping every time he MCs (And yes, they're fixing that)

Your arguments about more decurses and such aren't completely validated. A decurser - druid, mage or resto shaman should be assumed to be in your group, as are a paladin or shaman for resist totems. As a feral druid, I've been the only decurser in a 10 man group. It's not hard, people need to understand that even as a DPS class, you need to do more than AMAGAD dps.
Same goes for 4 horsemen. Make that boomkin, shadowpriest or elemental shaman help heal on 4h.

Some adds on gothik gain cleave on heroic difficulty, making positioning a little bit more significant.

Patchwerk - Complete joke on 10 man. I bet a holy paladin with beacon can keep a MT and OT up. On heroic, he can down an offtank rather quickly.

Gluth - a hunter or mage can kite the zombie adds rather easily. having an extra tank doesn't help, since the stacks the zombies give is rather worthless. Having a ranged DPS class like hunter or mage which can pull mobs quickly (Arrow, shoot a spell) is much more efficient than relying on taunt, faerie fire, heroic throw or whatever. Easy on both fights. Again, your dps need to realize they're more than DPS. Given my own experiences, I'd say 25 man's are harder due to more people involved, more coordination needed, and a faster chance of dying if a tank misses an add, a cleave goes wrong or something of the sort in both Naxx and Malygos.

10 man 3 drake sartharion on the other hand, is significantly harder than the 25 man version.

Why assume that a DPS should have to decurse? Aurik's idea of an ok DPS requirement doesn't even require DPS to be casting 90% of the time. 50% is plenty. Each decurser should only have to decurse once.

[Correction]

Yeah fuck easy decursing, all bosses should cast an undispellable debuff on the main tank every 45 seconds that kills them and deals one-shot AOE damage to everyone within 15 yards. That should keep all these scrubs away from my precious precious epics.

[FailureMidgard]

Yeah fuck easy decursing, all bosses should cast an undispellable debuff on the main tank every 45 seconds that kills them and deals one-shot AOE damage to everyone within 15 yards. That should keep all these scrubs away from my precious precious epics.

Yea, requiring them to look at the screen and hit their decurse button 2 times is pretty rough, right about the same difficulty as what you said.

[Correction]

Because gosh darn it we're just not making casuals spend 20 hours a week in Naxx anymore, and that's just not acceptable.

[FailureMidgard]

Because gosh darn it we're just not making casuals spend 20 hours a week in Naxx anymore, and that's just not acceptable.

Yea, I was thinking maybe they should make an encounter where each decurser has to decurse 3 times, but, I dunno, 90 hours a week seems a bit much, too bad we can't make them decurse 2.3 times, 40 hours would be perfect.

[Correction]

http://i43.tinypic.com/2hnpg74.jpg

Casuals in Naxx? Don't talk to me about Casuals in Naxx! Are you serious? Casuals in Naxx? You kiddin' me? Casuals in Naxx? I just hope they don't follow me into Ulduar!

[fantasticdan]

Gluth - a hunter or mage can kite the zombie adds rather easily. having an extra tank doesn't help, since the stacks the zombies give is rather worthless. Having a ranged DPS class like hunter or mage which can pull mobs quickly (Arrow, shoot a spell) is much more efficient than relying on taunt, faerie fire, heroic throw or whatever. Easy on both fights. Again, your dps need to realize they're more than DPS. Given my own experiences, I'd say 25 man's are harder due to more people involved, more coordination needed, and a faster chance of dying if a tank misses an add, a cleave goes wrong or something of the sort in both Naxx and Malygos.

10 man 3 drake sartharion on the other hand, is significantly harder than the 25 man version.

Why would you want to stick multiple mages/hunters in the back on 25 man gluth instead of just 1 offtank, with hunters laying down traps but dpsing the boss? Unless you're tank types have downs and/or you just want to kill it slower.

Malygos seems a lot harder in 10man, in terms of dps/enrage timer.

[Plow]

Why would you want to stick multiple mages/hunters in the back on 25 man gluth instead of just 1 offtank, with hunters laying down traps but dpsing the boss? Unless you're tank types have downs and/or you just want to kill it slower.

Malygos seems a lot harder in 10man, in terms of dps/enrage timer.

25 man gluth spawns 3 adds at a time, 1 from each grate. It's really quite difficult for any tank to get all 3 immediately, and absolutely not necessary that you have all of your dps on gluth to beat the enrage timer... not even remotely close, actually.

Maly does less dmg to tank, less with breath, less with 3 target aoe thingy, and less dmg on vortex.

Only thing that's more difficult at all in 10 man is the higher risk of ending up out of range of all the hotters during vortex.

[fantasticdan]

I didn't say enrage timer on gluth was an issue, but it's silly to take hunters/mages off the boss just because your offtanks have downs. We always have a prot paladin picking up the adds by himself, with the hunters just keeping frost traps up, and never have any issues.

And I said malygos 10 was specifically harder just in terms of enrage timer. He just dies way faster in 25man, and the timer is never an issue, even with a bunch of dps dying. If 2 dps get killed by one of the many retarded glitches in phase 1 on 10 man, we might as well start over.