2009 MLB season discussion*

[Akiyama]

Only saved baseball from dying a horrible slow death due to shitty attendance cause owners and unions are a bunch of fucking retards and can't agree on anything that does not benefit them 100% and will shit on the fans to get there way. Attendance was way down and people were MLB who when asked about baseball. Ratings down, attendance down, all of a sudden the most hallowed record is about to be broken not by 1, but two people and all of a sudden everyone was tuning into any game that was cardinals or cubs.

Homeruns sell tickets to the casual fans, not 1-0, 2-1 pitching masterpieces.

So put them into a Hall of Fame, even though their numbers aren't really comparable given the fact that they cheated, just because they saved baseball? People not going to ball games during that time were smart. MLB is America's PAST time. As in.. way in the past. Sadly, as much as I love baseball, football is in the forefront right now. The fact that there could be no NFL next year is HUGE.

I dunno. If you put Sosa and McGwire in, you have to put Jose Conseco in too because he brought the steroid usage up front with his book.

[Cephius]

Nolan Ryan
The Rocket
Randy Johnson

At least all as dominant as Pedro.

As for the roids, I think it's a tough call. I lived near Wrigley field in 98, the year when Sosa and McGuire were doing the home-run derby. I think all of this admission of steroids really taints that era. It suddenly steals the thunder from all of those moments and feelings that fans of the game were having for such a year.

Ryan and Rocket's best days were before my time. I saw Randy's good years but Pedro was better imo. Anyway, I meant most dominant in who I'd personally seen, not all time.

[Melena]

McGwire Career Stats:

16 Seasons 1874 Games, 7660 PA 6187 AB 1167 Runs 1626 Hits 583 HR 1414 RBI 1317 BB 1596 SO 263 BA 394OBP 588 SLG 982OPS

Now lets look at another player who is in. I'll leave him nameless though to avoid bias. he was inducted in 1984, so easy to figure out.

22 Seasons 2435 G 8147 AB 1283 Runs 2086 Hits 573HR 1584 RBI 1559 BB 1699 SO 256BA 376OBP 509SLG 884OPS

Which of these two would you have in?

I'll even toss in Sosa's #'s to keep things balanced.

18 Seasons 2354 Games, 9896 PA 8813 AB 1475 R 2408 Hits 609 HR 1667 RBI 2306 SO 273 BA 344 OBP 534 SLG 878 OPS

Precedent is there for the #'s, the #'s during this era are there. No reason outside of omg they may/have juiced to not have them in.

[Olo401]

No. Bonds sure, but Sosa/McGwire? For what? Hitting somewhat average and a shit ton of homers? I don't think they deserve to get in. What else did they even do? :/

Bonds shouldn't get in until he comes clean. Period. He was caught outright.

McGwire will probably eventually get in, not because of the records he hold but because of his career performance. Even if you deduct 10% from all his career statistics in an attempt to make up for his use of steroids, he still achieves over 500 home runs, over 1,000 runs scored and almost 1,500 RBIs. Also it's important to remember that McGwire didn't admit or deny that he took steroids during the congressional hearings - he followed the advice of his lawyer and refused to answer.

Back in the early-mid 90s, I had the opportunity to travel to Chicago and see several Cubs games. At that time Sammy Sosa was just coming up and despite his power & outfield arm he was the joke of the team. A few years later when he suddenly exploded and raced McGwire into the record books, I could only wonder how the hell this clown could have done it. He's denied that he took anything even though his name is reported to be on the "no-name list", but his numbers overall are better than McGwire so I guess it's a wait-and-see in his case.

[fren.]

lol @ this interview.

"I could have hit homers without them!"

He could have by staying shut. LaRussa says he ran a clean program in Oakland; Mac + Canseco = clean program

[Melena]

Bonds shouldn't get in until he comes clean. Period. He was caught outright.

McGwire will probably eventually get in, not because of the records he hold but because of his career performance. Even if you deduct 10% from all his career statistics in an attempt to make up for his use of steroids, he still achieves over 500 home runs, over 1,000 runs scored and almost 1,500 RBIs. Also it's important to remember that McGwire didn't admit or deny that he took steroids during the congressional hearings - he followed the advice of his lawyer and refused to answer.

Back in the early-mid 90s, I had the opportunity to travel to Chicago and see several Cubs games. At that time Sammy Sosa was just coming up and despite his power & outfield arm he was the joke of the team. A few years later when he suddenly exploded and raced McGwire into the record books, I could only wonder how the hell this clown could have done it. He's denied that he took anything even though his name is reported to be on the "no-name list", but his numbers overall are better than McGwire so I guess it's a wait-and-see in his case.

Being caught is subjective. When your whole case hinges on the testimony of one person, and your throwing that guy's family into jail and he still won't talk, that screams a lot. Did Bonds use em, probably, but if he was outright caught and as much of a slam dunk as people say, i'd think the Fed's would have a stronger case, right? Instead they need a disgraced gym rat, a vindictive mistress who thrived on Bond's paychecks as a roid user, and a bunch of other crap.

In all honesty, the congressional hearings and trials are getting retarded. Yea, they should have been honest, but we have more pressing things to worry about as a nation then finding out if Willie May's god son is a cheat and if Roger Clemens cheated on his wife and roided up as well.

[Moss]

So put them into a Hall of Fame, even though their numbers aren't really comparable given the fact that they cheated, just because they saved baseball? People not going to ball games during that time were smart. MLB is America's PAST time. As in.. way in the past. Sadly, as much as I love baseball, football is in the forefront right now. The fact that there could be no NFL next year is HUGE.

I dunno. If you put Sosa and McGwire in, you have to put Jose Conseco in too because he brought the steroid usage up front with his book.

How are their numbers not comparable? They were the best power hitters of their era. If you compare them to other eras then yeah I agree, but I think that's a mistake. We know pitchers roided up too, who knows how many. And no Canseco wouldn't get in just because McGwire and Sosa did. He fit your earlier profile of "just homeruns and a low BA."

I also don't agree with Bonds having to come clean to get in. Everyone already assumes he used steroids, so if you think the best roided hitters deserve to get in anyways then it shouldn't matter.

[fren.]

I fucking hate Bonds. Hate.

But, there isn't any denying that he was pretty much the perfect ballplayer before his numbers became retarded. Mays was a notorious amphetamine user FWIW.

Edit: He said he used roids to heal injuries, while using roids he got injured even more AND became a savage monster, but that was due to hard work. His "I'm not here to talk about the past" excuse was better.

[pohibaba]

Bonds shouldn't get in until he comes clean. Period. He was caught outright.

Without steroids Bonds would still have been one of the 10 best baseball players of all time. With steroids he was the single most dominant force in baseball history. What does admitting or not admitting anything have to do with his performance.

[pohibaba]

Oh, and Barry Zito is as horrible a singer as he is a pitcher:

[Akiyama]

How are their numbers not comparable? They were the best power hitters of their era. If you compare them to other eras then yeah I agree, but I think that's a mistake. We know pitchers roided up too, who knows how many. And no Canseco wouldn't get in just because McGwire and Sosa did. He fit your earlier profile of "just homeruns and a low BA."

I also don't agree with Bonds having to come clean to get in. Everyone already assumes he used steroids, so if you think the best roided hitters deserve to get in anyways then it shouldn't matter.

Yeah, but hitting 500 HR doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to. Granted Sosa hit 600.. but that's all he did, really.

As far as Canseco, I mean put him in as a contributor or something. Might as fucking well if we're letting other roiders in.

I doubt any of em will get in for a very long time.

[Moss]

Yeah, but hitting 500 HR doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to. Granted Sosa hit 600.. but that's all he did, really.

As far as Canseco, I mean put him in as a contributor or something. Might as fucking well if we're letting other roiders in.

I doubt any of em will get in for a very long time.

Ok but McGwire and Sosa had excellent numbers overall. It's not like Sosa's homeruns were coming with a .250 BA/.300 OBP. They were pretty dominant offensive players. If you want to discard his stats because of the roids I can respect that stance, my position is just that everybody was doing it, no point to pretend the era never existed.

Canseco doesn't really have the numbers anyway. If Fred McGriff isn't going to get voted in, Canseco doesn't have a chance in hell - they are at opposite ends of the "well-liked" spectrum.

[*Shinzon*]

Without steroids Bonds would still have been one of the 10 best baseball players of all time. With steroids he was the single most dominant force in baseball history. What does admitting or not admitting anything have to do with his performance.

Simple, recognition. We know what he did. He was caught doing it. There's no doubt that he was a dominant player, that's not the issue. The issue is can he be man enough to admit what he did gave him an edge, probably more so in later part of his career. Even the slightest edge over a lengthy career can make a big difference. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would willing vote him into the hall if he continues to outright deny he used when he was caught.

[pohibaba]

Simple, recognition. We know what he did. He was caught doing it. There's no doubt that he was a dominant player, that's not the issue. The issue is can he be man enough to admit what he did gave him an edge, probably more so in later part of his career. Even the slightest edge over a lengthy career can make a big difference. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would willing vote him into the hall if he continues to outright deny he used when he was caught.

The Hall of Fame isn't about being a "man". It's not about even being a good person. Should we not have allowed Mickey Mantle in to the Hall of Fame until he admitted he was an alcoholic? Should we not have allowed Ty Cobb in to the Hall until he admitted he was a racist? The ONLY thing that should matter is his performance on the field. If you think that was good enough, vote him in; if not, don't.

[*Shinzon*]

The Hall of Fame isn't about being a "man". It's not about even being a good person. Should we not have allowed Mickey Mantle in to the Hall of Fame until he admitted he was an alcoholic? Should we not have allowed Ty Cobb in to the Hall until he admitted he was a racist? The ONLY thing that should matter is his performance on the field. If you think that was good enough, vote him in; if not, don't.

That's not exactly what I meant by that. I meant acknowledging that while he was dominate, he still had help. You can't have it both ways. You either accept that yea, I had help from the roids, but they didn't do all the work; or B. Deal without being considered.

[Orph]

That's not exactly what I meant by that. I meant acknowledging that while he was dominate, he still had help. You can't have it both ways. You either accept that yea, I had help from the roids, but they didn't do all the work; or B. Deal without being considered.

One of his biggest problems is that he was in general a dick. People would be more sympathetic to a nice guy, but Bonds was not that guy.

[*Shinzon*]

One of his biggest problems is that he was in general a dick. People would be more sympathetic to a nice guy, but Bonds was not that guy.

Exactly. If he was straight with everyone though, and at least tried to make it seem like he actually cared, I think people might consider him. As things stand now he considers himself better than everyone on the planet. Most people at a point say, ok if I really want this I need to work towards improving my chances. He clearly doesn't want to change and doesn't care, so guess what? No body else cares either. I'm sure he can deal with not getting in.

[Akiyama]

McGwire's such a fucking baby. Who was interviewing him, btw? Gammons or Costas? I didn't notice.

[Moss]

Exactly. If he was straight with everyone though, and at least tried to make it seem like he actually cared, I think people might consider him. As things stand now he considers himself better than everyone on the planet. Most people at a point say, ok if I really want this I need to work towards improving my chances. He clearly doesn't want to change and doesn't care, so guess what? No body else cares either. I'm sure he can deal with not getting in.

I agree with your point, but I don't think it should matter. The Hall should just be an objective view of a guy's playing career. Barry Bonds shouldn't have to lobby himself to get in, no one should. If their numbers/performance say they belong, they should be inducted.

[*Shinzon*]

I agree with your point, but I don't think it should matter. The Hall should just be an objective view of a guy's playing career. Barry Bonds shouldn't have to lobby himself to get in, no one should. If their numbers/performance say they belong, they should be inducted.

The problem is most people feel his numbers aren't accurate. I agree it shouldn't matter but I think I'm playing devil's advocate when I say this: People wonder how long he could of sustained his career without the roids.

Roids do a lot of harm to a person's body after prolonged use, so it's feasible to assume that he only started using in the latter part of his career. If you believe that then you you can assume that his numbers may have dropped off substantially if he couldn't maintain the strength he had towards the end of his career.

The other side of the coin is they may not have dropped off at all. I think simply because there is doubt, people don't want to assume he could of produced the same way without help.