2009 MLB season discussion*

[Akiyama]

And wow...I really didn't think the Angels would be 2nd worst bullpen in history given last year's performance.

:You read the chart wrong. That's worst bullpens in history based on the year. They are saying that this year's Angels bullpen is terribad.

[Absolutely Virtue]

Yeah the Angels' ERA will likely drift back to the mean. For the Nats, I think 6.6 sounds about right for the year. On pace to obliterate the record. Gotta be good at something, right?

[Penthesilea]

And our GM going on the radio to recruit mouthbreathing Philly rednecks to come down for the games.

lol? We might be loud and obnoxious mouthbreathers, but we're not rednecks. Atleast we fill out our stadium. I mean you guys disguise yourselves as empty blue seats when you go to games.

[Absolutely Virtue]

I love the city of Philadelphia- the bars, the restaurants, the history, etc. My wife and I love to visit. But Phillies fans are the new Red Sox fans. I'm not calling you out because I don't know you, I'm making a general observation. The Nats have never drawn well in DC, but the onslaught of Phils fans the year after the World Series win is ridiculous. Lots of brand new red baseball caps out there.

Our attendance sucks, for sure. It's absolutely impossible to defend. But the data on attendance in Philly is pretty easy to dig up, and it isn't pretty either. Anyone who has lived in Philly can tell you nobody gave a shit about this team when it wasn't winning, and that includes many of my close friends who are diehards. Your rank in attendance, and the corresponding year, for the last 12 years:

Year Rank
2009 -
2008 4th of 16
2007 6th of 16
2006 7th of 16
2005 9th of 16
2004 2nd of 16
2003 10th of 16
2002 14th of 16
2001 14th of 16
2000 13th of 16
1999 12th of 16
1998 14th of 16
1997 14th of 14

...lol

Source: Philadelphia Phillies Attendance, Stadiums, and Park Factors - Baseball-Reference.com

[Cephius]

Yeah I live in Jersey and everyone knows that Philly is a football town... everything else only gets attention if they're winning.

[Absolutely Virtue]

To be fair, I think it's like that everywhere. Hello Washington Capitals attendance this year. This will always be a Redskins town, no matter how much Snyder tries to kill our souls with fire.

[Cephius]

Eh, I think there are a lot of places that are baseball towns. New York obviously, but even places like Chicago, St Louis, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Boston, and even San Fransisco to an extent. Those places always seem to draw even if the teams are bad.

[Trichocyst]

The Phillies are almost always eclipsed by the Eagles and for the most part, rightly so. The Phillies tradition is a losing tradition and a really, really bad losing tradition. Just goes to show that winning teams draw and for good reason. Personally I think it's amazing the Marlins haven't moved yet considering they've already won two world series and still nobody gives a shit.

I'd also like to mention that Citizen's Bank Park opened in 2004. Veteran's Stadium was an unforgiving, nasty, brutal, and effective football field, but it was a terrible place to watch a baseball game. Shitty teams, shitty stadium, bad attendance. Simple as that. The new Nationals stadium is beautiful, but the team is still settling in there, and haven't shown too much in the way of improvement. I'll bet Strasburg will put a few asses in the seats.

[archibaldcrane]

even places like...Milwaukee...always seem to draw even if the teams are bad.

Meh.
Milwaukee Brewers Attendance, Stadiums, and Park Factors - Baseball-Reference.com

Milwaukee has only been in the top six of their league once in attendance since 1984, and that was last year with CC and the playoffs (even then they were only 6th out of 16 teams)

Even with shiny new Miller Park they've had two years where they were 13th out of 16 teams in attendance.

Milwaukee is a baseball town first and foremost, but that's mainly because the Packers are in Green Bay and the Bucks...well...yeah.

[Headspace]

I checked that site out. Cincinnati is a baseball town, but our attendance usually sucks. Generally around 10th, but Cincinnati isn't a highly populated city. We were only first when we were the Big Red Machine.

[Penthesilea]

I was writing up a post on how bad it was to watch a baseball game at the vet and what a shithole it was. The place had a capacity of 62k, and I think during the early-mid ninety's they drew 33-50% of capacity with losing seasons, which isn't too bad.

Don't think that this city is not into baseball, because we are, but we've got 4 major sports in this town so lots of our attention is dispersed.

[Akiyama]

Winning brings crowds, and in a town with the Hawks (lol), the Falcons (lol), and the Braves, from 1992 to 2000 when we were winning all of those division titles/one World Series (T_T), our attendance has been Top 5. Since 2001, our attendance has dropped off significantly,

2001: 6th out of 16
2002: 8th out of 16
2003: 7th out of 16
2004: 10th out of 16
2005: 10th out of 16
2006: 9th out of 16
2007: 10th out of 16
2008: 10th out of 16

[Absolutely Virtue]

I was writing up a post on how bad it was to watch a baseball game at the vet and what a shithole it was. The place had a capacity of 62k, and I think during the early-mid ninety's they drew 33-50% of capacity with losing seasons, which isn't too bad.

Don't think that this city is not into baseball, because we are, but we've got 4 major sports in this town so lots of our attention is dispersed.

Dude come on.

You can make an argument about a shitty stadium, that's fine. I'd argue back that Philly fans, probably more than any other, are the type that will tell you (LOUDLY) that they don't need a fancypants stadium to draw well. But I digress. The real argument is in the data.

From 85-03 the Phils averaged 24,897 fans. The distribution is pretty smooth, too, between about 18k and 27k. Two years stand out, though:

1993- 38,737
1994- 38,183 (stike shortened year)

You remember what happened in '93? You went to the World Series. The point of the story is that the fans in Philly are frontrunners, same as everywhere else. Attendance is definitely up in the new park, but your team hasn't finished worse than 2nd in that time. The true test is how your team draws when it loses.

Your argument about four sports is silly, too. Most major markets have four (if not more teams). The Cubs haven't won a World Series in 100 years, Wrigely is a fucking shithole (although I love it and can't wait to go back), and the city has TWO fucking baseball teams and they've still never finished worse than 9th in attendance in the last 25 years. The Phillies had 10th or worse attendance for seven consecutive years from '97 to '03.

[Trichocyst]

I maintain that franchises that have a history of success will always draw well. The Cubs have a historic field and that lovable loser tag. It took the Phillies 99 years to win their first title.

[Penthesilea]

I don't think it's a wrong assessment that we're front runners, but we view it as necessary. When your team isn't winning, you shouldn't support them. People always talk shit on the fans here and say how terrible we are when in actuality, we're some of the most knowledgeable fans there are.

ESPN's Skip Bayless > 950 ESPN > Audio

this is more about your original comment about your GM having to fill his seats with "mouth breathing Philly rednecks".

[Cephius]

I maintain that franchises that have a history of success will always draw well. The Cubs have a historic field and that lovable loser tag. It took the Phillies 99 years to win their first title.

The Mets drew over 3 million fans last year, and they've never had a history of winning much of anything (and had gagged it up the year before) so I think it's more a question of what town you're in than anything else. If a place like Boston ever picked up another MLB team they'd draw well too.

[archibaldcrane]

It doesn't hurt that there's, ya know, lots of people in New York either.

[Cephius]

Still, in a tri-state area of about 15 million people, the baseball teams drew about 8 million fans last year. Obviously a lot of season ticket holders and all that but... that's pretty impressive either way, IMO.

[Orph]

All fans are front runners. Why should fans approve mediocrity by spending money to go watch crappy teams play?

[Viq]

All fans are front runners. Why should fans approve mediocrity by spending money to go watch crappy teams play?

It's not always about approving mediocrity. Did the Sox suck through the bulk of the 1990's? Of course, but I still went to games because I love watching baseball in Fenway Park. Some places, like Boston, NY and St. Louis, will always draw fans because people in those cities simply love baseball. Boston, for example, has been a baseball town all along. The Celtics won ring after ring in the 50's and 60's, but if you talk to any older guys about their memories of those decades then you'll hear about the end of Ted Williams' career, Tony Conigliaro getting beaned, and Yaz. Ask about the 70's and you'll get a lecture about the '75 World Series instead of the Stanley Cups that the Bruins raised. That's just how things are here. It's a baseball town.