2009 MLB season discussion*

[Akiyama]

Yeah, but the Milwaukee media pressure isn't exactly the same as the New York media pressure, yanno? I'm not saying there was zero pressure on him what so ever. He carried the team at the end, and without him, they'd finish probably in a distant third. I just think there will be more pressure on him with the Yankees as he IS their #1 pitcher coming into the season, and people will expect him to perform as he did at the end of last season.

[Penthesilea]

Here's the thing. With the Brewers, it didn't matter if he was THE guy. It's the Brewers, Haha. It's not like there's a ton of pressure to perform there when compared to New York, and playing for the Yankees. I do think CC will fit in well, but I do not think it'll be as easy as he thinks. His record should be better though, considering the offense he'll have.



Uh.. you're also suggesting that all the pitchers will stay healthy for the Braves, lol. Hudson will have a spot open when he comes back. I can almost guarantee it.

Well yeah, but it doesn't matter if a spot doesn't open up because he's our only legit ace on that team. I think injuries will give us a glimpse at tommy hanson and more jorge campillo. By the way, I thought Tommy John was like a 18 month recovery thing, that'll put Moylan and Hudson at a year if they return when they project to return.

[Melena]

I don't think with the Yankee's he's going to have the post season problems he had the last couple of years. What he put himself through to get the Brewers into the playoff's pretty much single handedly would have killed just about any other pitcher. And though I don't follow Cleveland as much as I used to, I think they had him pitch a bunch on short rest as well?

[Bregor]

Second best hitters park to the second worst, Hudson's "numbers" aren't gonna be very good.

Edit: Actually, this is a horrible signing. They gave up the 17th pick of the draft for one year of Orlando Hudson, what the fuck.

I don't think Hudson's game is gonna be hurt by playing in LA that much. Sure, he'll never hit 15 home runs again, but he's an on-base/defense guy. If you'd rather have 600+ plate appearances by Casey Blake, be my guest. As for giving up the 17th pick, yeah that sucks but it's not like that's a sure-fire top prospect.

As for CC, I really don't think the label of playoff bust is appropriate. He's had, what, like three bad starts? He had a pretty shitty April for Cleveland last year too but he turned it around just fine. I think he'll handle New York well, including the playoffs if he's lucky enough to pitch in October.

[fren.]

I don't think CC will handle postseason play if the Yankees make it. He's the past two performances he's put up an ERA of like 10+.

.

He pretty much pitched on 3 days rest his last 3-4 starts of the season and was still dominant. His struggles are probably due to pitching so many damn innings.

He's arguably the best pitcher in the game going forward (and the numbers do back that up)

I don't think Hudson's game is gonna be hurt by playing in LA that much. Sure, he'll never hit 15 home runs again, but he's an on-base/defense guy. If you'd rather have 600+ plate appearances by Casey Blake, be my guest. As for giving up the 17th pick, yeah that sucks but it's not like that's a sure-fire top prospect.

As for CC, I really don't think the label of playoff bust is appropriate. He's had, what, like three bad starts? He had a pretty shitty April for Cleveland last year too but he turned it around just fine. I think he'll handle New York well, including the playoffs if he's lucky enough to pitch in October.

First round picks are pretty damn valuable, the Brewers traded their top prospect for Sabathia knowing they weren't gonna retain him, but they figured they were gonna get a 1st round pick. That didn't happen and their entire offseason hit the shitter.

Hudson has no bat, so you're essentially giving up a first rounder for defense and he's coming off wrist surgery to boot.

[Penthesilea]

His last three post season games were losses, 2 of which were coming on days rest >= to 5. Those games he lasted on average 4.4 innings, that's not saying a lot. He's flat out pretty shitty in the post season. And playing in the East, I can see him getting shelled come WC games.

I mean seriously, you WALK THE BASES LOADED against a pitcher? The guy won't be able to keep his head in the playoffs unless he's playing at home.

[Ensam]

small sample sizes are small sample sizes

[Penthesilea]

Peoples explanation for those bad starts were because he hadn't had rest which is what I proved wrong. His bad performances were because of the pressure. Just watch, he'll do the same this year if they make it and he's playing away.

[archibaldcrane]

But saying "the pressure" alone doesn't ring true either. I'd say his last 3 regular season starts for the Brewers were more pressure-filled than his playoff start. Putting an entire team on your back for back to back to back 3-day rest starts that are all must-wins to put a franchise in the playoffs for the first time in 25 years -must've- been more high-pressure than his playoffs start. I know it was more nervewrecking for me as a fan.

I think you have to chalk it up to small sample sizes and bad, well, luck. We're talking about a grand total of 3 games in which he underperformed.

Sorry, I'm a CC fanboy, even though he's on the Yankees now. What he did for the Brewers last season was amazing.

[Viq]

Small sample sizes aside, in 2007 he imploded against the Red Sox. Last time I checked, he's going to do a lot of pitching against Boston this year, and some of it will likely be in October. Ask John Lackey how much things change facing the Sox in October compared to the regular season.

[Cephius]

Wang gets bombed in the postseason too, it doesn't mean he's a bad pitcher or succumbs to postseason pressure. Judging CC/Arod/Lackey/<insert talented player here> on such small sample sizes and concluding they fail in the playoffs is:

Retarded.

[Penthesilea]

I guarentee that Boston/Whoever plays the Yanks in the playoffs will get into his head. It's as simple as that. While I wasn't at that game, Citizen's Bank Park was the reason he fared terribly last year in the one game he played. We get terribly loud, and that park isn't really designed to make us seem louder.

Not to mention the good Ceeeee Ceeeee chants going on.

With that said, I can't wait for postseason baseball, heh.

[Akiyama]

This is all assuming the Yankees make the Playoffs.

...what? xD I'm kidding, I think. God, if the Yanks don't make the playoffs this year, am I allowed to tease? I know there's like.. no way they won't, but still. That'd be interesting.

I do think CC's just been unlucky with both lack of run support. If I remember right, the Indians scored a ton against the Sox, but in CC's starts, he didn't get the run support. I do know he got bombed too, though. I don't really put that on him being a shitty post-season performer as much as I think the pressure really did get to him, along with some awful luck.

[Penthesilea]

I didn't see the Boston games, but it's pretty much inexcusable to walk a pitcher who's down 0-2. Especially when they guy has a .069 BA. That is fail right there. Oh do I need to mention that he then goes and walks the next batter to load the bases?

Those are things that define your post season play, and if you let pressure/bugs/whatever get to you, that'll be who you are.


*Hey, don't come running back here to make me eat my words if he does win a game or two. I'll just say "Small sample size is small" and laugh at you.

[fren.]

Ask John Lackey how much things change facing the Sox in October compared to the regular season.

Or you could ask Matt Garza. Playoffs a complete crapshoot, even Beckett shat the bed last October. The more chances you get, the more you can claim anything.

I'll take my chances with the best pitcher in the game

and Pent, you're using BA to further prove you point, seriously.

[Cephius]

Since we're now judging pitchers based on one at-bat, didn't some pitcher hit a HR off Santana last year? Yeah boy, Santana sucks. He shouldn't pitch ever again. I could give up a HR to a pitcher, why is Santana so great!

[Melena]

Livan Hernandez says hi to you all. Fuck that 2005 world series. All we heard in the news is that he never loses in October, Hernandez is clutch in October, and he goes and shits up the joint in his last two starts. Why they let him pitch Game 7 I have no clue.

Moral of this: Just cause someone dominated before or sucked before doesn't mean they can't turn it on eventually. Bonds was Mr. Choke till 2005 when he hit something like .460 with a 700 obp that series.

[Penthesilea]

Or you could ask Matt Garza. Playoffs a complete crapshoot, even Beckett shat the bed last October. The more chances you get, the more you can claim anything.

I'll take my chances with the best pitcher in the game

and Pent, you're using BA to further prove you point, seriously.

You mean to tell me that when up 0-2 in the count against a guy who's, sorry I had it wrong earlier, batting .059 and you can't pitch to contact and then go and walk the next guy that he's been great at postseason play?

If that's all you've got is that I'm using stats from a terrible hitter and "small sample size", then I hope the Yanks play at home against their opponents whenever CC is pitching.

So I can't use stats because they're lolable and I can't use annecdotal evidence, then I guess I'm just supposed to believe he's a stellar postseason pitcher!

I'll sum it up right here for you. 2-3 postseason record, past 4 postseason games played with an ERA above 4.00 (7+ the past 3 games), strike to walk ratio just above 1:1 for a "strikeout" pitcher, and only won his games due to massive run support (as evidenced by him only going 5 and 6 innings prior.)

Enjoy him in the postseason, but like I said, you'd better hope you guys are scoring lots, otherwise he's liable to fall apart.

Livan Hernandez says hi to you all. Fuck that 2005 world series. All we heard in the news is that he never loses in October, Hernandez is clutch in October, and he goes and shits up the joint in his last two starts. Why they let him pitch Game 7 I have no clue.

Moral of this: Just cause someone dominated before or sucked before doesn't mean they can't turn it on eventually. Bonds was Mr. Choke till 2005 when he hit something like .460 with a 700 obp that series.

I don't think he can't turn it around, but I find that his situation hasn't changed for the better, other than getting a few more bats to do his work.

[Soa]

Since we're now judging pitchers based on one at-bat

Actually Myers had 2 really good at bats against CC that game. The first was obviously the 9 pitch walk he drew that led to the game winning grand slam by Victorino. The second was a 10 pitch at bat where he ended up flying out, but flustered CC so bad that he gave up hits to the next 2 batters before finally getting yanked.

Anyone that watched that game knew CC was starting to come unraveled because of Myers, and it also happened against the Sox like Viq mentioned. I'm not willing to call him a playoff choker just yet, but "small sample size" is a weak argument considering its damn near impossible to get a large sample in the postseason.

[Bregor]

Hey if the Yankees thing doesn't work out, Sabathia can always play QB for the Carolina Panthers amirite?

Judging CC/Arod/Lackey/<insert talented player here> on such small sample sizes and concluding they fail in the playoffs is:

Retarded.

^ Finally, a voice of reason emerges. It's not impossible to get large sample sizes in the postseason, especially when debating playoff-caliber teams. Josh Beckett has 87 innings in 13 postseason games under his belt, more than a third of a season's worth. Derek Jeter has almost a full season's worth of PAs in the postseason, with a .309/.377/.469 line, 17 HRs, 49 RBIs and a whopping 85 runs scored. You can absolutely judge players based on their performance in the postseason, but Sabathia has pitched only 25 innings, and ARod has had just 94 ABs since he left Seattle and was given the "choker" label in the Bronx, despite his exceptional 2004 postseason. Sometimes the numbers don't back up the clutch/choke debate.