Looking for some insight on Thief.

[Thorny]

I already did run math that shows contrary to their OP, since their later calculations all use the given numbers from their first assumption(and you only have 1.0 PDIF on SA or TA if you somehow managed to have 0 attack.. 2 is the very least you'll ever have in any reasonable situation). Since they make such a big point of knowing who they are, if I knew they had a vagina I obviously wouldn't have bothered arguing or posting corrections, that makes them infallible anyway D;

They also didn't take into account that you'll always be SA or TAing your WS, which compounds ftp mods and ws mods with the SA/TA mods on the first swing, all of which is effected by X's. They mention having a weak WS build as something in favor of X's, when in reality having a better DEX build is getting you more out of your first hit in relation to the other ones and comparatively lowering the benefits in total ws damage that blau/sirocco gets through quantity.

[Cream Soda]

I already did run math that shows contrary to their OP, since their later calculations all use the given numbers from their first assumption(and you only have 1.0 PDIF on SA or TA if you somehow managed to have 0 attack.. 2 is the very least you'll ever have in any reasonable situation). Since they make such a big point of knowing who they are, if I knew they had a vagina I obviously wouldn't have bothered arguing or posting corrections, that makes them infallible anyway D;

Message delivered.

[Starr]

Hurray for Alla bashing.

Why do BG people hate Alla anyway? If they're so lol-worthy, then why keep bringing it up? It's almost as if people are threatened or don't want to admit that some (even if it's only very few) people there do actually know what they're talking about. After all, some of the better posters post here anyway, see: VZX. Is he an allatard?

Just because you post on BG does not make you better than someone who posts on any other fansite. Afterall, there's a lot of retard here aswell, see: OP.

/tangent

oh shit I used to troll your ass on Alla about 100 years ago, posting here is gonna end in tears for you dear

[Spider-Dan]

They also didn't take into account that you'll always be SA or TAing your WS, which compounds ftp mods and ws mods with the SA/TA mods on the first swing, all of which is effected by X's.

Um, no you won't.

If you are waiting on SA/TA timers to use WS (and you are not using Mercy Stroke) then you already lost. Even the "allatards" know this much.

[Thorny]

Um, no you won't.

If you are waiting on SA/TA timers to use WS (and you are not using Mercy Stroke) then you already lost. Even the "allatards" know this much.

ftp and mods compound with the guaranteed crit and if you have X's they compound with that as well, you can't realistically TP faster than SA or TA timers come back with mob switches, slow pulls, and whatnot(1 timer every 27.5 secs average if you use the remaining 5 merits on SA and TA timers), unless your acc is trash enough to need the guaranteed lands from SA and TA then you're going to do much better compounding your WSes with SA and TA

[Raen Ryong]

SoloSA and soloTA, soloDE will produce you the most overall damage in merit parties at least. The only time I stack my WSs with one of those in merit parties is if one timer happens to be up when I'm gonna WS (or within ~5s) or if I'm going for epeen. In terms of overall damage, not soloSA/TAing is very inefficient (and with a proper build, they are very strong)!

More endgameish stuff, it's often best to always stack your WS with one of the two.

[Thorny]

SoloSA and soloTA, soloDE will produce you the most overall damage in merit parties at least. The only time I stack my WSs with one of those in merit parties is if one timer happens to be up when I'm gonna WS (or within ~5s) or if I'm going for epeen. In terms of overall damage, not soloSA/TAing is very inefficient (and with a proper build, they are very strong)!

More endgameish stuff, it's often best to always stack your WS with one of the two.

Timers should be up at the same time pretty frequently, you're acting as if you don't ever run out of mobs and have to wait a second on a repop or anything like that.. there's no reason not to stack WS with SA/TA if they're up as you're getting all the same benefits a plain hit gets in addition to ftp mod and forcing a crit with WS mods :/

[Spider-Dan]

This argument was resolved circa 2005.

You will do less damage if you attempt to SA/TA every WS than if you go as soon as timer/TP is up. Feel free to do the math on the chances of hitting 0:00 remaining at the precise instant that you break the 100 TP threshold. The more you wait, the bigger the gap.

Mercy Stroke gets a pass because it's so incredibly buff that it overpowers any lost damage while waiting. DE (and EV) do not enjoy the same benefit.

I strongly suggest you drop this line of argument if you intend on continuing to play the "allatard" card. You will embarrass yourself.

P.S. That being said, if you do happen to hit 0:00 and 100 TP at the same time, go nuts. And obviously you want to stack JA+WS on HNM.

[Thorny]

This argument was resolved in like 2005.

You will do less damage if you attempt to SA/TA every WS than if you go as soon as timer/TP is up. Feel free to do the math on the chances of hitting 0:00 remaining at the precise instant that you break the 100 TP threshold. The more you wait, the bigger the gap.

Mercy Stroke gets a pass because it's so incredibly buff that it overpowers any lost damage while waiting. DE (and EV) do not enjoy the same benefit.

I strongly suggest you drop this line of argument if you intend on continuing to play the "allatard" card. You will embarrass yourself.

Hitting 0:00? Pretty low. Being between 0:00 and 0:03 and losing one attack round of tp toward next tp round to compound your ftp mod with SA's buff -OR- being one attack round away from 100 tp when your timer is up? Should happen a decent percentage of the time. If you lose more than one attack round to do it, you're losing out on potential damage.. but if you're losing 0-1 attack rounds then you're better off waiting the second or 2 and buffing up your WS.

[Raen Ryong]

I'll WS with it if they are up on time cause it would almost be a waste not to, but I definitely don't hold timers very long to WS; soloSA and soloTA are REALLY strong if geared properly. If we're waiting on repops I tend to fire them off anyway so I can soloSA => another soloSA shortly thereafter for instance.

[Spider-Dan]

It's reasonable to say that if you are within 1 round of WS and your timer hits 0:00, you can wait a round and probably break even. (I say "probably" because missed hits, which delay you another round, will probably give back as much as you gain from slightly stronger WS.)

However, there are two major nails in the coffin of stacked JA+WS:

1) How many seconds does it take for you to hit 100 TP? I encourage you to try to present a mathematical scenario in which the answer to this question is "30 seconds." If it is not, then no matter what you do, your TP/timers will desynch more and more as time progresses. You won't even have the opportunity to stack without sitting on one or the other.

2) Do you have SA/TA recast merits? If you can't even keep SA/TA timers synched, you're doomed from the start.

[Thorny]

It's reasonable to say that if you are within 1 round of WS and your timer hits 0:00, you can wait a round and probably break even. (I say "probably" because missed hits, which delay you another round, will probably give back as much as you gain from slightly stronger WS.)

However, there are two major nails in the coffin of stacked JA+WS:

1) How many seconds does it take for you to hit 100 TP? I encourage you to try to present a mathematical scenario in which the answer to this question is "30 seconds." If it is not, then no matter what you do, your TP/timers will desynch more and more as time progresses. You won't even have the opportunity to stack without sitting on one or the other.

2) Do you have SA/TA recast merits? If you can't even keep SA/TA timers synched, you're doomed from the start.

The problem with calculating time to 100 tp and assuming it'll continually unsync is that there is no situation where you're constantly engaged and in melee range for a long enough period of time for it to happen bar mobs where you need them stacked anyway. You can have the best BRD ever, but you'd need both bird camps open for mobs to continually be at camp. I used poor phrasing in the first post, but the point you're missing is that you do have timers coincidentally up pretty often and each time that happens you're adding more benefit to x's/blau in comparison to blau/sirocco.

[Spider-Dan]

And the point I'm making is that statistically, it's not worth discussing.

Going forward with the baseline presumption that you never stack WS is fine because, at worst, you're going to roughly break even with someone who aims to stack.

Going forward with the baseline presumption that you will always stack WS is auto-fail for reasons already discussed.

If you have an idea for a method of calculating how many WS should be expected to be stacked, by all means. But unstacked DE is generally the standard, for the same reason we don't include EV + darkness damage in comparisons: it's not reliable or easily quantifiable.

If a DRG uses Drakesbane and I have TP and JA available, I'll probably JA+SB+Light. But that doesn't mean I'm going to say X's is better because of JA+SB+Light damage.

[Thorny]

If you have a timer up every 27.5 seconds on average and have ~50% haste and 20% DW delay reduction, the end result is 2 1/6 second attack round for blau/sirocco and 2 1/3 second attack round with x's/blau. If you give an attack round of leeway either way, you're looking at roughly 4.5/27.5 or around 1/6 of your weaponskills combined with a SA or TA at the cost of less than one attack round assuming equal distribution of TP/timers which obviously will fluctuate. It's nothing huge, but it's another thing in favor of X's that was skipped over, certainly has more impact than a fabricated couple points of crit rate that melphina claims make her point proven better.

[Cream Soda]

More from alla

I'm going to do an actual comparison of these dagers with live stats, similar to deadgye. But I'm going to use my actual gear and stats, so let's see just how "lol worthy" my math is.

Target mob == level 81 greater colibri

Notes: dexterity is merited 5 times, dagger skill is merited 8 times, food == coeurl subs. Crits are merited 4 times.

----------------------
TP gear setup

blau/sirocco fire bomblet
turban, love torque, brutal, suppa
antares harness, homam, toreador's, rajas
cuchulain's, swift, homam, dusk

Gear haste == 17%
Gear accuracy == 41
gear attack == 21

I will add magic haste of 15% as the only buff for simplicty
----------------------------
Calculating Hitrate

85 (base dex with 5 merits) + 22 (gear) == 107 dex

accuracy == 282 from dagger skill, 53 from dexterity, 41 from equipment. Total accuracy == 376

Hitrate on level 81 birds will be 84%
------------------------------------------
Calculating fSTR

Strength == 62 + 5 (meat) + 9 (gear) == 76 strength.
76 - 67 == 9
dSTR == 9
9 + 6 == 15
(15/2) == 7.5.
7.5/2 == 3.75.
fSTR == 3

-----------------------
Calculating pDIF

attack == 8 + 292 (dagger skill) + 36 (str) + 21 (gear) == base attack of 357. 357 x 1.2 (meat) == 428 attack.

Level 81 greater colibri defense == 322.
428/322 == 1.329
1.329 - 3.0 == 1.029 cRatio
Max pDIF == 1.234
Min pDIF == 0.734


Average pDIF == 0.984
Average Critical pDIF == 1.984
Average critical pDIF with X's knife equipped == 2.284

-------------------------------
Calculating crit rate

The proposed notion is that once dex is 40+ over the mobs agility you get 10% + 1% for each point of dex capping at 20% base crit rate. 107 - 67 == 40, thus

10% base rate of crits + 4% with crit merits == 14% crit rate
-----------------------------------------
Calculating number of swings per round

Triple attack is merited 5 times, and I have brutal thus in 100 rounds

100 x 0.05 == 5 extra attacks from brutal
95 x 0.1 x 2 ==== 19 extra attacks from triple attacks
(100 x 2) + 5 + 19 == 224 attacks per 100 rounds
2.24 attacks/round



----------------------
Part A:Blau/Sirocco calculation


Blau/sirocco delay == 328.
328 x 0.8 x 0.68 == 178.432
rounds/hr == 1210.547

1210.547 rounds/hr x 2.24 attacks/round == 2711 attacks/hr
2711/2 == 1355.5 attacks per hand per hour

Blau
------------------
0.14 x 36 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 1.984 == 11,385 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 36 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 34,687 damage in melee non crits

Sirocco
------------
0.14 x 29 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 1.984 == 9,171 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 29 x 1355.5 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 27,942 damage in melee non crits

Total melee DoT of blau/sirocco (ignoring wind procs) 83,185

Calculating tp accrual

2711 attacks x 0.84 x 4.7 == 10,703 tp/hr
----------------------------------------

Part B: X's/blau calculation

x's/blau delay == 379
379 x 0.8 x 0.68 == 206.176
rounds per hour == 1047.648

1047.648 rounds/hr x 2.24 attacks/round == 2346 attacks/hr
2346/2 == 1173 attacks per hand per hour

X's
------------------
0.14 x 37 x 1173 x 0.84 x 2.284 == 11,657 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 37 x 1173 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 30,851 damage in melee non crits

Blau
------------------
0.14 x 36 x 1173 x 0.84 x 2.284 == 11,342 damage in melee crits
0.86 x 36 x 1173 x 0.84 x 0.984 == 30,017 damage in melee non crits

Total melee DoT of X's/blau 83,867


Calculating tp accrual

2346 attacks x 0.84 x 4.9 == 9,656 tp/hr

a difference of 682 ACTUAL melee damage at a cost of 1047 TP
---------------------------------

Unstacked ability useage

Trick attack and sneak attack base damage was ~~185-190. Since x's gets its biggest increase here I'll use 190

These abilities get 1.125 uses every minute at 1.984 averaged critical pDIF without x's and with x's 2.284 average critical pDIF

Blau/sirocco
190 x 1.125 x 1.984 x 60 == 25,444 if I apply all unstacked

X's/blau
190 x 1,125 x 2.284 x 60 == 29,292 if I apply all unstacked

This is a difference of 3848 ACTUAL damage
----------------
Stacked Ability useage

My stacked weaponskill set has 85 + 51 == 136 dex, and 46 chr. I also have capped fSTR
(136 x 0.3) + (46 x 0.4) == 59.2 wsc, floored to 59
59 x 0.83 alpha == 48.97, floored to 48 WSC

With X's knife
(( 34 + 10 + 48) x 1.1875) == 109 base damage first saws hit + 136 (dex) == 245 base damage first hit of DE

thus
245 x 2.284 x 60 == 33,574 if I apply all stacked


Blau/sirocco
((33 + 10 + 48) x 1.1875) == 108 base damage first hit + 136 == base 244 damage first hit of DE

thus
244 x 1.984 x 60 == 29,045 if I apply all stacked with DE

a difference of 4529 maximum damage, which when combined with melee DoT is a maximum difference of 5211 damage/hr

The price to pay is 1047 TP, or at minimum 9 weaponskills

The difference that I would have to make up in weaponskills would be an average of 579 damage in each weaponskill minus the difference the base damage between x's/blau and blau/sirocco. I would hope to hell my dancing edges average more than this (trust me, they do). If I gave this the full 10 weaponskill range I would need only 452 averaged actual damage. I also considered this difference with the MAXIMUM where I stacked ALL weaponskilsl with sneak attack + de, when in reality this will also not be the case.


And as a final note, this STILL does NOT consider the wind proc of sirocco, which if you take 1355 attacks/hr x 0.84 == 1138 connecting rounds of sirocco, which if you average wind damage low to only 6 damage that's

6 x 1138 == 6828 actual damage.

I just did a live calculation with all the factors involved, and the blau/sirocco still came out on top. The margin of gain was a bit smaller than I expected, but unless my figures are grossely off this is the result of it.

I will admit however that with rogue's roll the x's knife can probably win this one. I will change my stance on that in lieu of what was calculated above. In light of this if you have rogue's roll you will probably see a greater increase with x's/blau overblau/sirocco, most definately so if the target is birds where wind does not proc. However without Rogue's Roll I still stand by my OP in that blau/sirocco is suuperior to x's/blau in tp burn.

For the record since the poster on BG didn't post his numbers in an actual pDIF live scenario, I posted an example of mine.

Thanks for the comment mikes, It's appreciated. But honestly I'd post what I do whether people agree with me or not. This is the internet, really that's all that has to be said. Where you can comment without being face to face with no real world ramifications there is bound to be negative interaction on a gaming form, as we have seen in the past many times and many places. Human nature is never inescapable, whether in game, on the board, or any other place in life, and competitiveness is a natural part of us (I won't lie, I'm competitive as hell too, it's why I keep pushing to make my thief better). I take everything said with a grain of salt. If someone can post numbers contradicting mine I'll change my stance, I care more about accuracy than winning, but in this case I honestly believe my conclusion is the correct one.

At any rate I think this discussion is more or less over. Before turning this thread into a dead horse I'll let it go at that. I don't think I can add any more constructive comments to the discussion at hand, and I'm not going to be able to present any more thoughts that will change any minds beyond where they stand now. I posted my OP and the post just above this one, and others have chimed in with their own thoughts. I'll let this thread go at that. The rest is up to you guys to take the informatuon presented as you will and make your own conclusions. Ultimately that is the most important thing anyway.

Peace =^..^=

LOL I just checked the BG thread and now they're making a pointless argument on whether or not it's worth it to always stack sa and ta with weaponskill or just fire the ability off ASAP. Thorny made the argument that fTP amplifies the difference in a stacked weaponskill and that you will ALWAYS be stacking sa and ta weaponskill, but Mel just accounted for the ftp bonus in her above post too. I wonder how many of those guys are actually gonna check the posts just made here or accept Thornys info as truth.

Either way, it's funny as hell to see BG get sparked like that over something posted here, because considering that all of them know everything there is to know, they sure as hell do argue a lot about the stuff that's already known as "correct". BG is no different than alla, and as much as they like to think so they don't all know as much as they think they do, they just have more people with elitist attitudes. Really they're no different than us though. Dare I say lolbg or at least, some of their posters who believe they are gods ultimate gift to the world?

[Thorny]

except they're assuming your tp over 100 carries toward next set of tp and you never disengage, both of which favor blau/sirocco not X's/blau.. an hour long example is pretty worthless because in the course of an hour any half decent party will have you disengaging dozens of times because you run out of mobs very frequently, each time resetting delay

[Deadgye]

Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Thief

In a perfect world, blau/sirocco will be about equal/almost equal to X's/blau in a lolibri merit party. Since we don't live in a perfect world, I'll be using X's/blau over blau/sirocco if I get myself an X's.

[Tradition]

This thread is going places.

[Thorny]

Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Thief

In a perfect world, blau/sirocco will be about equal/almost equal to X's/blau in a lolibri merit party. Since we don't live in a perfect world, I'll be using X's/blau over blau/sirocco if I get myself an X's.

♫ In a perfect world
This could never happen
In a perfect world
You’d still be here
And it makes no sense
I could just pick up the pieces
But to you this means nothing
Nothing at all ♫

Emo lyrics aside, X's is awesome for anything higher level as well since a larger fraction of your damage is coming from your JAs compared to damage generated by weaponskills themselves. Blau/Sirocco is by no means gimp, but this math is no excuse to stop trying X's BC.

[Magnus5557]

I stack TA with every DE I can and only use DE otherwise when it's the killing blow on the mob or I have Hide up, all so I can conserve food. Because I'm a cheap piece of shit.

Also, Raen, if you let me die again I'm kicking you.