Glanzfaust Preliminary Testing

[Tadghostal]

Yea, You only need to completely beat einherjar, salvage, nyzul isle,assaults ZNMs and every damn HNM in the entire TOAU expansion except for PW. Once again, another bad post and it you failed at it.

No, you don't. Only place Glanzfaust is obviously amazing is when you have 300% tp, and if you're saving 300% tp in Assault, Einherjar, Salvage, Nyzul Isle, ZNMs or any of the HNMs in the TOAU universe, your linkshell leader needs to punch you in the ovaries. Hell, you need to not even be there as monk on half those fights.

Glanz wins if you're about to zerg Bahamut or Kirin since you should be able to get 300% tp before those fights with no problem. And there's very little chance of the random in-game situations that can absolutely nerf the weapon occurring.

HOWEVER...

You'd have to be retarded to lose those fights in the first place.

[TummieGaruda]

The aftermath requires using a weaponskill that's pure shit instead of asuran, it's not worth it.

Actually, Ascetic's Fury isn't as bad as people think. As stated before, it ignores a portion of the mobs defense and has the ability to critical. It is pretty much situational and somewhat of a side-grade to Howling Fists with a chance to do some really good damage under certain circumstances (Double Crit, Double attack, or a combination of both).

[LD]

Honestly the reason has to be that the person that said these wouldn't be as strong as relic, said basically in the same sentence they were easier to get as well, so people wrote that statement off as being clueless. Not saying I think they're right to think that, just that I'm pretty sure that's why this idea seems to have stuck.

It's worse than that. The devs have been all over the place when describing the potency of the weapons and the ease with which they're obtained. "Weaker, yet easier to obtain" was definitely one of their first lines, but I distinctly remember them back-peddling by saying they were meant to be as powerful (though not in straight damage). Probably as a means to placate the people who realized they were much harder to get.

Once we make a big enough stick STINK, they'll take the easiest action to get us to stfu.
That's one of two things: They'll either make the quest line significantly easier or make the Mythics essentially better than Relics. Any worthwhile adjustment would do exactly that, the question is which takes the least time and man-power.

[Alistaire]

Once we make a big enough stick STINK, they'll take the easiest action to get us to stfu. That's one of two things: They'll either make the quest line significantly easier or make the Mythics essentially better than Relics. Any worthwhile adjustment would do exactly that, the question is which takes the least time and man-power.

Your first option would piss off the people who have completed them already, the second one would definitely be better. You might get some relic users QQing over that but the fact would remain: more work to get should result in more reward. This would be ignoring the fact that SE doesn't understand that concept at all so I kind of doubt there'll be any change in these at least for a long time. They should be changed, too bad it doesn't mean they will be.

[Tadghostal]

Actually, Ascetic's Fury isn't as bad as people think. As stated before, it ignores a portion of the mobs defense and has the ability to critical. It is pretty much situational and somewhat of a side-grade to Howling Fists with a chance to do some really good damage under certain circumstances (Double Crit, Double attack, or a combination of both).

Parses show that a 300% TP Ascetic's does about 60% of the damage as a 100% Asuran. That's a shitty weaponskill, especially when a 300% DragonKick can do 1.5x the damage as a 100% Asuran.

Ascetic's has its' place against high def mobs that you're not zerging, but monk isn't exactly optimal in those fights anyway. And the ignores def bit isn't even relevant in most of situations Trolly McTrollerson listed - most notably merits, where it absolutely fails.

[LD]

Your first option would piss off the people who have completed them already, the second one would definitely be better.

People are pissed off already. If they really cared about our opinion (listened to us, instead of just trying to get us to shut up), they would have made all the mage Relics/Mythics superior to HQ staves, like we've been asking them to since 2004. As I said, they'll do whatever's easier for them. If it's easier to make Aftermaths work like Dancer steps and build potency/increase duration with every use, they'll do that. If it's easier to alienate the few people who have Mythics so hundreds or thousands more will have a better shot at them, they'll do that.

[pchan]

Parses show that a 300% TP Ascetic's does about 60% of the damage as a 100% Asuran. That's a shitty weaponskill, especially when a 300% DragonKick can do 1.5x the damage as a 100% Asuran.

Ascetic's has its' place against high def mobs that you're not zerging, but monk isn't exactly optimal in those fights anyway. And the ignores def bit isn't even relevant in most of situations Trolly McTrollerson listed - most notably merits, where it absolutely fails.

Noone cares about Ascetic's fury, you don't need to have a mythic to know it's shit. It's known since september. Everyone has it, except those that fail at claimbing Nyzul. If you go for aftermath 3 you do like 1 ascetic's fury followed by 6 asuran fists. Whenever I play monk I do more than 7 weapon skill.

[TummieGaruda]

Parses show that a 300% TP Ascetic's does about 60% of the damage as a 100% Asuran. That's a shitty weaponskill, especially when a 300% DragonKick can do 1.5x the damage as a 100% Asuran

fTP remains a static 1.0 based on TP, the only thing that changes is your Critical Hit chance. 300% TP will not magically make the WS critical 100% of the time though it would be nice. When you don't critical on the WS or double attack, yes the amount of dmg is lower than Asuran on squishies/low evasion mobs. This is basically what the WS has against it - the fact that it will either do good damage (900-1000+), or you just end up doing ~600 Dmg. Ascetics has a chance to do pretty crazy spike damage, but other weaponskills such as HF, DK, and Asuran tends to be more consistant. To me, I look at it as just another tool added to our arsenal: not the best, not the worst, but not entirely useless.

Paired with Glazenfaust we can all agree that it is defiantly situational, being that you do fights where you store 300% TP, use the mythic WS for the double attack bonus, and then from there do what you normally would do for the next 120 seconds.

It's worse than that. The devs have been all over the place when describing the potency of the weapons and the ease with which they're obtained. "Weaker, yet easier to obtain" was definitely one of their first lines, but I distinctly remember them back-peddling by saying they were meant to be as powerful (though not in straight damage). Probably as a means to placate the people who realized they were much harder to get.

Not only that, but when they first opened up about the Mythics back at Fan Fest 2007, they said the Nyzul Isle weapons are new relics, and that their true power would be released in the past or some obscure statement. This started speculations that WoTG somehow was tied into the mythic quest.

But you are right about them being all over the place..

What can you tell us about the forthcoming Bahlran's weapons? How difficult will they be to obtain compared to the existing relic weapons?

MI: While it's really hard to compare the two, it'll probably be about the same level of difficulty.

Source

[Neosutra]

Noone cares about Ascetic's fury, you don't need to have a mythic to know it's shit. It's known since september. Everyone has it, except those that fail at claimbing Nyzul. If you go for aftermath 3 you do like 1 ascetic's fury followed by 6 asuran fists. Whenever I play monk I do more than 7 weapon skill.

Subtract a few AFs from there for having to store TP to 300 again. You wont be getting of 6 Asurans for everyone 120seconds.

Subtract constant 6% crit hit from destroyers, or a constant 10 counter/20 attack from spharai.

Subtract 30%~ damage from WS every time you have to use Ascetic's Fury over Asuran Fists.

Id be suprised if these consistantly outparse destroyers.

[Demosthenes11]

Subtract a few AFs from there for having to store TP to 300 again. You wont be getting of 6 Asurans for everyone 120seconds.

Subtract constant 6% crit hit from destroyers, or a constant 10 counter/20 attack from spharai.

Subtract 30%~ damage from WS every time you have to use Ascetic's Fury over Asuran Fists.

Id be suprised if these consistantly outparse wagh baghnakhs.

yep, pretty much

[Tadghostal]

fTP remains a static 1.0 based on TP, the only thing that changes is your Critical Hit chance. 300% TP will not magically make the WS critical 100% of the time though it would be nice. When you don't critical on the WS or double attack, yes the amount of dmg is lower than Asuran on squishies/low evasion mobs. This is basically what the WS has against it - the fact that it will either do good damage (900-1000+), or you just end up doing ~600 Dmg.

I understand just fine how it works. What you don't seem to grasp is that, even with the occasional double attack and crit mod, over time Asuran Fists will do something like 70% more damage. There are extensive parses from when the weaponskill came out that show as much.

Ascetics has a chance to do pretty crazy spike damage, but other weaponskills such as HF, DK, and Asuran tends to be more consistant.

Not really - HF and DK can both spike higher than Asuran, and both are nearly as inconsistent as Ascetic's. Asuran wins primarily because it's the most consistent weaponskill in the game; 8 rounds, no Double Attack, no Crit bonus, no Zanshin, low attribute mods.

To me, I look at it as just another tool added to our arsenal: not the best, not the worst, but not entirely useless.

I think that's fine, and if I was in a situation with limited support and no other melee to take to a high-def mob, I'd probably give Ascetic's a shot and eyball it against Asuran. But with the number of bards and cors around for endgame events and the addition of marinara pizza, those specific situations don't occur with any great frequency.

Paired with Glazenfaust we can all agree that it is defiantly situational, being that you do fights where you store 300% TP, use the mythic WS for the double attack bonus, and then from there do what you normally would do for the next 120 seconds.

Agree with this 100%, and pretty sure everyone else here would as well.

[TummieGaruda]

I understand just fine how it works. What you don't seem to grasp is that, even with the occasional double attack and crit mod, over time Asuran Fists will do something like 70% more damage. There are extensive parses from when the weaponskill came out that show as much.

Ascetics is not going to win out on any merit mobs to be honest, but comparing it to non merit high def/eva mobs, it's a different story. I used Ascetics Fury for a month after I first obtained it just to get an idea of it's usefulness. In merits, Asuran outperformed it by a large margin which was to be expected. At merit camps when you have a BRD or COR or a combination of both, Asuran is going to get a large benefit from the +Attack from rolls/songs whereas Ascetics Fury will not see a boost due to the WS ignoring a % of mob defense (As if the pdif was capped or close to the cap). If there is a boost, the amount is very minimal. Even without songs/rolls on merit mobs, the result is the same, Asuran will top it in total damage, though Ascetics might have some random criticals that will spike it's damage, over time Asuran will still beat it. Not arguing that point all. But against mobs where acc was an issue (not being able to at least land 5 hits on asuran) or mobs with higher defense where Asuran dropped off in damage, Ascetics in my testing, actually performed better (Dynamis NM's come to mind).

Not really - HF and DK can both spike higher than Asuran, and both are nearly as inconsistent as Ascetic's. Asuran wins primarily because it's the most consistent weaponskill in the game; 8 rounds, no Double Attack, no Crit bonus, no Zanshin, low attribute mods.

Not disagreeing with Asuran's consistency. I am speaking more to situations where you are up against a mob where:

A) The mob that has high Def or Eva and

B) You don't want to feed the mob extra TP and you are able to use a WS that beats out Asuran in this particular situation.

All in all, it's situational as there isn't one WS for mnk that is the end all WS that you will use on every single thing in the game.

[Ratatapa]

Noone cares about Ascetic's fury, you don't need to have a mythic to know it's shit. It's known since september. Everyone has it, except those that fail at claimbing Nyzul. If you go for aftermath 3 you do like 1 ascetic's fury followed by 6 asuran fists. Whenever I play monk I do more than 7 weapon skill.

Only Way to get 300TP is for zerg USUALLY or when you get Shikikyo or blah lbha rare occasion.

On a zeg if you need to do more then 7WS as MNK, your zerg team fails

[Keyln]

Only Way to get 300TP is for zerg USUALLY or when you get Shikikyo or blah lbha rare occasion.

On a zeg if you need to do more then 7WS as MNK, your zerg team fails

Actually, I hear that there's this amazing thing called an Opo-opo necklace, and paired with sleeping potions, can actually get up to 300% TP without fighting.

The best part about it is that any job can use the two.

[pchan]

Subtract a few AFs from there for having to store TP to 300 again. You wont be getting of 6 Asurans for everyone 120seconds.

No. with aftermath 3, you can do 6 asuran fist+a 300 tp assuming acc is capped, if you get 80 ish accuracy aboviously it's worse but this penalty applies to any weapons. Basically with stadard buffs it takes you ~44 second to get 300 tp during aftermaths and 13 sec (4 rounds) for 100 tp asuran fists which returns you ~18-19 tps most of the time.

Subtract constant 6% crit hit from destroyers, or a constant 10 counter/20 attack from spharai.

But add the assumed 5% crit 2/3 of the time, counter & atack bonus. At the very least this counters lol-6% critical hits. Also add 2 more base damage.

Id be suprised if these consistantly outparse destroyers.

I wonder if they outparse those godly H2H faith barghnaks though..

[Vodou]

No. with aftermath 3, you can do 6 asuran fist+a 300 tp assuming acc is capped, if you get 80 ish accuracy aboviously it's worse but this penalty applies to any weapons. Basically with stadard buffs it takes you ~44 second to get 300 tp during aftermaths and 13 sec (4 rounds) for 100 tp asuran fists which returns you ~18-19 tps most of the time.

Not completely.

Glanz' value decreases faster as accuracy and haste decreases. It's value as a weapon directly relates to having AM3 active as much as possible AS WELL as having a high% of WS NOT being ascetics.

The lower the accuracy and the lower the haste, the higher proportion of WS will be ascetics. This affects Glanz more than other weapons because other weapons will be using other WS.

What troubles me is the implicit assumptions that A) mnks will be zerging with max haste and B) mnks will be zerging HNMs with capped accuracy.

Again, lower haste and lower accuracy hurt Glanz MORE than other weapons.

Amnesia, unintentional kiting, holding tp for skillchains (lol), petrify, paralysis, blindness, slow affect Glanz more than other weapons because those conditions hurt what Glanz excels at disporportionately to other weapons.

This is indeed an outstanding weapon under some very rare circumstances, but when people mention its value as correlated to hundred fists, its nor a promising start.

Any analysis that disregards these is superficial imo.

[Neosutra]

Were are you getting 100tp in 4 attack rounds pchan? Or am I misunderstanding you?

[Ratatapa]

Actually, I hear that there's this amazing thing called an Opo-opo necklace, and paired with sleeping potions, can actually get up to 300% TP without fighting.

The best part about it is that any job can use the two.

and when do youy use opo? OH RIGHT IN ZERG !!!!!!!

[Nattack]

this is the most boring argument ever. But I will note: Spharai > Glans Fist, except maybe for solo.... those dodge bonuses arent bad.

[Neosutra]

this is the most boring argument ever. But I will note: Spharai > Glans Fist, except maybe for solo.... those dodge bonuses arent bad.

Because I would want my 10 counter to only be active during dodge right, because having it active all the time would suck?