RNG stuff, couple questions.

[FailureMidgard]

Do you even know how to calculate TP given to mob? Monks have just as much subtle blow than NIN and attack at about the same rate (though with higher damage). Not to mention two MNKs providing full time Penance will lower everyone's TP feed to mob. MNKs usually feed TP to mob at about the same rate as they gain TP. And anyways, if you have more than one or two melees on a mob at a time, TP feeding doesn't really matter anyways, since they will always have more than enough TP. Stop propagating old misconceptions.

/endderail

Yes, I do, but you clearly don't. I'll go ahead and make it clear for you.
Mob TP gain = Base Player TP Gain + 3.
Base TP is before Store TP.

So a monk with destroyers is giving a mob 15.8 for 2 punches, pre subtle blow. With Subtle Blow4, that is 12.64 for the 2 hits, @ 348 delay (5.8sec). 12.64/5.8 = 2.17 TP/sec

A samurai with a Hagun is giving a mob 14.5 TP per swing pre subtle blow @ 450 delay (7.5sec). 14.5/7.5=1.93 TP/sec ... if said Samurai is actually /nin for Subtle Blow2, that's only 1.74 TP/sec

Penance is good, great even, but sorry, the "old misconception" here is that a mnk feeds less TP to a mob because it has subtle blow. Subtle Blow -almost- makes up for the fact that fast weapons feed more TP than slow weapons (because there is a constant that is added per hit to the TP gain by mobs), it doesn't lower TP fed.

Rangers give a very small amount of TP/sec if they are standing back and firing.

Edit: I do agree that if you have more than a couple melee on a mob, it's close to irrelevant because the mob gets more than enough TP.

[Valisk]

Yea, it's a pretty bad idea to go up against FailureMidgard or Thorny when it comes to math and calculations lol. Especially if you don't have any numbers of your own to present.

[Ruuz]

Yes, I do, but you clearly don't. I'll go ahead and make it clear for you.
Mob TP gain = Base Player TP Gain + 3.
Base TP is before Store TP.

So a monk with destroyers is giving a mob 15.8 for 2 punches, pre subtle blow. With Subtle Blow4, that is 12.64 for the 2 hits, @ 348 delay (5.8sec). 12.64/5.8 = 2.17 TP/sec

A samurai with a Hagun is giving a mob 14.5 TP per swing pre subtle blow @ 450 delay (7.5sec). 14.5/7.5=1.93 TP/sec ... if said Samurai is actually /nin for Subtle Blow2, that's only 1.74 TP/sec

Penance is good, great even, but sorry, the "old misconception" here is that a mnk feeds less TP to a mob because it has subtle blow. Subtle Blow -almost- makes up for the fact that fast weapons feed more TP than slow weapons (because there is a constant that is added per hit to the TP gain by mobs), it doesn't lower TP fed.

Rangers give a very small amount of TP/sec if they are standing back and firing.

Edit: I do agree that if you have more than a couple melee on a mob, it's close to irrelevant because the mob gets more than enough TP.

I still disagree with your math (not the actual calculations, just the gear/subjob assumptions). On any mob where TP feed really matters, MNK will have at least a few Subtle Blow pieces on (I personally give MNK at least 10 additional sTP from Black Belt and either Rajas or Usukane Hands). I can give you the SAM/NIN, but all other 2h (in their right mind) will be subbing /SAM.

Using Thalassocrat as an example (492 delay, close to DRK and WAR options), you have 16.3 TP/492 delay = 1.99 TP/sec.

Redoing calculations for MNK with 30% SB, 11 TP/348 delay = 1.89TP/sec.

I still dont know a reliable way to calculate delay/sec for Ranged attacks, so I'm not going to debate the relative merits of Ranged attack to Melee TP given. Though it should be noted that Hellfire+1 gives 20TP/hit.

Still, don't beat on Monks without substantiating it. Too many idiots read things like "Monks feed TP" without understanding the exact magnitude or relative factors involved.

[Konda]

... if said Samurai is actually /nin for Subtle Blow2

why on earth would SAM sub nin on HNM? subtle blow 2 is a very very poor excuse.

Meditate doesnt give the mob TP, and StoreTP works in similar ways to Subtle Blow in the player TP gained vs Mob TP gained.

Use /war or /thf and actually do something with your SJ, or go ask the guy in selbina for your Magic'd Skull back.

[FailureMidgard]

I still disagree with your math (not the actual calculations, just the gear/subjob assumptions). On any mob where TP feed really matters, MNK will have at least a few Subtle Blow pieces on (I personally give MNK at least 10 additional sTP from Black Belt and either Rajas or Usukane Hands). I can give you the SAM/NIN, but all other 2h (in their right mind) will be subbing /SAM.

Using Thalassocrat as an example (492 delay, close to DRK and WAR options), you have 16.3 TP/492 delay = 1.99 TP/sec.

Redoing calculations for MNK with 30% SB, 11 TP/348 delay = 1.89TP/sec.

I still dont know a reliable way to calculate delay/sec for Ranged attacks, so I'm not going to debate the relative merits of Ranged attack to Melee TP given. Though it should be noted that Hellfire+1 gives 20TP/hit.

Still, don't beat on Monks without substantiating it. Too many idiots read things like "Monks feed TP" without understanding the exact magnitude or relative factors involved.

I left off gear for a reason - you're being very unfair here. Why does the Dragoon not have a Rajas? Let's assume the drg/sam has a Rajas, 1.99*.95=1.89 tp/sec
So, the monk with 30 Subtle Blow pre Kicks equals the Dragoon with 5 SB. What happens when you add kicks and haste? Well, the fact is that the MNK has more haste and has kick procs, both which increase the TP/sec gained by the mob. Meanwhile, the dragoon has jumps, which give 0 TP to the mob afaik.

A dragoon has what, ~19% haste on gear (9 homam, 6 belt, 4 head), say 1 march and haste spell for 45% total haste. 1.81x swings.
A monk has ~24% (5 byakko, 5 turban, 12 belt, 2 feet) [25 if full usu], for 50% total haste. 2x swings.

Kicks give a 15% chance per 2 swings to give an extra swing, or roughly 7.5% more hits.

So, with 30 Subtle Blow, now adjusting for haste and kicks, the monk is doing: 1.89x1.075x2=4.06 tp/sec (this is assuming no /war for DA...which will actually up this even more)
And the Dragoon with 5 Subtle Blow is at 1.89x1.81=3.42 tp/sec

I'm not sure what you're out to prove here...I'm also not sure when you say that any 2h DD is going to be /sam, what you mean. I know people use Drk/nin and War/nin at least as tanks in Salvage. Are you talking about in merit camps? Has anyone ever cared about TP feeding in merit parties?

Monks -do- feed more TP than other 2h DD as a general rule that encompasses most all situations that you care about TP feeding.

[FailureMidgard]

why on earth would SAM sub nin on HNM? subtle blow 2 is a very very poor excuse.

Meditate doesnt give the mob TP, and StoreTP works in similar ways to Subtle Blow in the player TP gained vs Mob TP gained.

Use /war or /thf and actually do something with your SJ, or go ask the guy in selbina for your Magic'd Skull back.

People definitely use Sam/nin in Salvage, which is a place people care about Subtle Blow. Nowhere in my post did I advocate subbing nin on Sam, perhaps you should re-read it. Even without /nin, the Sam still feeds less TP than the monk. For academic purposes, I added what it would be /nin. Oh, and I think I wasn't clear on my statement, nobody subs for Subtle Blow (frankly, the entire idea of Subtle Blow is kinda silly outside of soloing), but people do /nin for shadows, and get Subtle Blow.

[Raineer]

Why does the Dragoon not have a Rajas?

Because dragoons need all the accuracy they can get, obviously.


or, "a dragoon must have rajas because they can't wear accuracy gear", choose your meme

[Day]

why on earth would SAM sub nin on HNM? subtle blow 2 is a very very poor excuse.

Meditate doesnt give the mob TP, and StoreTP works in similar ways to Subtle Blow in the player TP gained vs Mob TP gained.

Use /war or /thf and actually do something with your SJ, or go ask the guy in selbina for your Magic'd Skull back.

Are you trying to tell Failure what sj to use? I'm confused.

[Konda]

I see.

even in salvage, /nin doesnt have much place over /war, with seigan and an Oshit macro, you're going to be doing better than /nin.

and in salvage, when Subtle Blow does matter (on bosses etc), there should be penance on at all times.


/on topic: Ebow isnt the highest DMG bow in the game, but the high Ratk rating with the very low delay make it the best outside of relic in my experience.

[Konda]

Are you trying to tell Failure what sj to use? I'm confused.

I was suggesting that /NIN is a usless SJ for SAM outside of Nyzul and maybe some Dynamis runs.

[FailureMidgard]

I see.

even in salvage, /nin doesnt have much place over /war, with seigan and an Oshit macro, you're going to be doing better than /nin.

and in salvage, when Subtle Blow does matter (on bosses etc), there should be penance on at all times.


/on topic: Ebow isnt the highest DMG bow in the game, but the high Ratk rating with the very low delay make it the best outside of relic in my experience.

I don't really feel like debating the differences between /war and /nin for a Samurai in salvage, there are benefits to both, and which is better really depends on what else you have in your group, and how good your support is. I agree that /war has more _Potential_, but I think it is stupid how much people here spout that /war is the only way to go, not knowing anything about the groups and mages that people that read these forums actually run.

Personally, I've seen firsthand all sorts of different tank combinations in Salvage. Monks are overrated, Subtle Blow is overrated, /war vs /nin is situational based on who and what you run with.

The only absolute truth I am arguing here is the math behind subtle blow, and the fact that subtle blow does not make dual wielders feed less TP, it attempts to make up for the fact that they feed more.

Edit:

I was suggesting that /NIN is a usless SJ for SAM outside of Nyzul and maybe some Dynamis runs.

Thanks, I know what subs to use where...I have every potential sub I could ever want to have leveled. I use /nin occasionally when I think it is good, I use it sometimes when I think it is bad but a group/shell asks me to sub it.

/thf and /nin are both overrated by many shells/people for Sam. They are both huge losses to damage for some random utility that people think is worth it, that really can be made up by having other people perform better.

[Konda]

I don't really feel like debating the differences between /war and /nin for a Samurai in salvage, there are benefits to both, and which is better really depends on what else you have in your group, and how good your support is. I agree that /war has more _Potential_, but I think it is stupid how much people here spout that /war is the only way to go, not knowing anything about the groups and mages that people that read these forums actually run.

I agree with this.

If you're in a group fighting HNMs where TP moves can spell disaster when spammed, you're more than likely to have good support and a Decent tank who can hold hate from you.

When lowmanning stuff, /thf is excellent for the hateless weaponskill.

/nin is good for absorbing some AOE dmg that wipes Third Eye and can leave you Defenceless.

going /nin doesnt make you on par with a real Tank, so using this to avoid damage when you take hate is pretty pointless, most of the time Seigan is going to serve you better.

anyhoo, this isnt the place for this.

[Ruuz]

I left off gear for a reason - you're being very unfair here. Why does the Dragoon not have a Rajas? Let's assume the drg/sam has a Rajas, 1.99*.95=1.89 tp/sec
So, the monk with 30 Subtle Blow pre Kicks equals the Dragoon with 5 SB. What happens when you add kicks and haste? Well, the fact is that the MNK has more haste and has kick procs, both which increase the TP/sec gained by the mob. Meanwhile, the dragoon has jumps, which give 0 TP to the mob afaik.

I'm not sure what you're out to prove here...I'm also not sure when you say that any 2h DD is going to be /sam, what you mean. I know people use Drk/nin and War/nin at least as tanks in Salvage. Are you talking about in merit camps? Has anyone ever cared about TP feeding in merit parties?

Monks -do- feed more TP than other 2h DD as a general rule that encompasses most all situations that you care about TP feeding.

You are right, I forgot to include Rajas on DRG (silly of me really). However, all of this is relevant to gear. You really can't make a comparison of jobs without also including gear available (and gear used). Sure, building for Subtle Blow is epic fail, but in a discussion of TP feeding, you must factor it in.

In general, none of this argument matters, because the theoretical only matters as much as it interferes with your reality. In large-group situations with many melee pounding away, TP feeding is irrelevant (though Penance is good for everyone), all that matters is dealing out large amounts of damage but as controlled as possible. Other times, you have dangerous AoE that prevents almost everyone from even being in melee range (aside from tank(s)). In these situations, you will just use BLM (or have melee store up TP on sidelines and run in for WS). In situations like this, sure MNKs are weak due to our relatively low dmg WS and slower TP gain.

In small group situations, MNK is very strong. Due in large part to rapid CE gain (for salvage tanking), but also due to low TP gain using Subtle Blow gear and Penance (and near cap on Haste from gear). I'm not saying other jobs cant also do well, but last I checked 2h (aside from SAM) are much lower dmg when not /SAM, thus limiting their overall potential.

And as for the /SAM, I really have not seen any 2h use anything but /SAM in ages, and I very very rarely see SAM/NIN.

[FailureMidgard]

You are right, I forgot to include Rajas on DRG (silly of me really). However, all of this is relevant to gear. You really can't make a comparison of jobs without also including gear available (and gear used). Sure, building for Subtle Blow is epic fail, but in a discussion of TP feeding, you must factor it in.

In general, none of this argument matters, because the theoretical only matters as much as it interferes with your reality. In large-group situations with many melee pounding away, TP feeding is irrelevant (though Penance is good for everyone), all that matters is dealing out large amounts of damage but as controlled as possible. Other times, you have dangerous AoE that prevents almost everyone from even being in melee range (aside from tank(s)). In these situations, you will just use BLM (or have melee store up TP on sidelines and run in for WS). In situations like this, sure MNKs are weak due to our relatively low dmg WS and slower TP gain.

In small group situations, MNK is very strong. Due in large part to rapid CE gain (for salvage tanking), but also due to low TP gain using Subtle Blow gear and Penance (and near cap on Haste from gear). I'm not saying other jobs cant also do well, but last I checked 2h (aside from SAM) are much lower dmg when not /SAM, thus limiting their overall potential.

And as for the /SAM, I really have not seen any 2h use anything but /SAM in ages, and I very very rarely see SAM/NIN.

I'm fine with including gear, if you include all of it. That includes haste (and really, kicks should be factored, as I did). If you look at the large picture, monks -still- feed more TP than a 2h DD (assuming no /nin on the 2h, and assuming 30 SB on the monk).

[Ruuz]

I'm fine with including gear, if you include all of it. That includes haste (and really, kicks should be factored, as I did). If you look at the large picture, monks -still- feed more TP than a 2h DD (assuming no /nin on the 2h, and assuming 30 SB on the monk).

I still think it is very close. Also, in situations where a Monk wants to gear for Subtle Blow, they can get to 35% with no sacrifices at all (Rajas, Usukane Gote, and Black Belt), or they can get to 50% with quite a bit of sacrifice (AF2). You are right though that Kick Attacks are almost more pain than gain (seeing as they amount to <5% of total damage with good gear and merits. I guess they do slightly speed up TP gain though, so .....

Either way, its not like Monks get to melee HNMs anyways.

[Kyo]

For the bucc/scouts belt question, personaly I prefer the af 2 belt.

[FailureMidgard]

I still think it is very close. Also, in situations where a Monk wants to gear for Subtle Blow, they can get to 35% with no sacrifices at all (Rajas, Usukane Gote, and Black Belt), or they can get to 50% with quite a bit of sacrifice (AF2). You are right though that Kick Attacks are almost more pain than gain (seeing as they amount to <5% of total damage with good gear and merits. I guess they do slightly speed up TP gain though, so .....

Either way, its not like Monks get to melee HNMs anyways.

...how can you not think it's very close after I did the #s for you, here goes again, I'll even go with 35% SB for you and 0-10% for a 2h DD.

Monk: 7.9 TP per hit, 348 delay, 15% chance to kick, 35% Subtle Blow, 25% haste, 5% DA (Full Usu, BB, Rajas, Brutal).

Dragoon/Sam: 16.3 TP per hit, 492 delay, 5% Subtle Blow, 19% haste, 9% DA (Askar Body, Brutal, Pole, 3 Homam, VBelt, Aces, Rajas).

Sam/War: 14.5 TP per hit, 450 delay, 10% Subtle Blow, 19% haste, 17% DA (Full Usu, Rajas, VBelt, Brutal, Pole).

All are getting 1 march + haste for 26% more haste. Here's how fast they are swinging:

Monk: 2 swings/5.8 seconds base * 1/(1-.51) * 1.075 * 1.05 = 4.61 swings/5.8 seconds = .96 swings/sec
Dragoon: 1 swing/8.2 seconds base * 1/(1-.45) * 1.09 = 1.98 swings/8.2 seconds = .24 swings/sec
Samurai: 1 swing/7.5 seconds base * 1/(1-.45) * 1.17 = 2.13 swings/7.5 seconds = .28 swings/sec

Now onto the Subtle Blow Part:
Monk: .96 swings/sec * 7.9 TP/swing * .65 = 4.93 TP/sec with 35% Subtle Blow (3.70 TP/sec with 35% Subtle Blow + Penance up [that's assuming Penance bypasses the SB cap, and is multiplicative], 3.79 TP/sec with 50% Subtle Blow)
Dragoon: .24 swings/sec * 16.3 TP/swing = 3.91 TP/sec with 0% Subtle Blow (3.72 TP/sec with 5% Subtle Blow)
Samurai: .28 swings/sec * 14.5 = 4.06 TP/sec with 0% Subtle Blow (3.86 TP/sec with 5% Subtle Blow, 3.65 TP/sec with 10% Subtle Blow)

Look, it isn't even remotely close. A monk with 50% subtle blow (which is the cap to my knowledge) is feeding more TP than a dragoon with 5%. A monk with a realistic amount of Subtle Blow is feeding way more TP to a mob than any 2h DD.

I'm not trying to argue against monks really, I just get annoyed when people post that a slow weapon feeds more TP, because it just isn't the case. Monk is a fine job for a salvage tank, so are many other jobs, but lowering enemy TP gain is -not- one of their strengths. Take your best geared DD for the best damage you can get, don't take a monk because you think he is feeding less TP to a chariot.

[Shinryuu]

Monk's roll works better when there's a MNK!

[_chuchu]

For the bucc/scouts belt question, personaly I prefer the af 2 belt.

for the numbers, buc belt or gtfo

[Rilu]

for the numbers, buc belt or gtfo

Nooooooooo, Scout's Belt ftw. Agi helps boost the slugshot modifier and raise damage cap, Ranged Accuracy cancels out (Same on both belts) and i'll take the +7 Ranged attack over the -emn since I can easily get -enm on Novia earring, but there isn't a +7 ranged attack earring. Plus, when using meat, you generally get +Str modifiers on that.