Faith and Reason.

[Neosutra]

In recent topics over on this board we have seen a reoccurring theme of a continued set of debates on the archetypes of religion and faith, as well as a myriad of arguments for and against faith. Many people are tired of seeing the same arguments brought up in countless threads, and in a few recent threads it was deemed possibly prudent to create a single sticky where as the thick headed could endlessly debate each other on the topics of deities and falsities until they were blue in the face. Hopefully I am not overstepping my bounds and this topic can serve as the starting point for that conversation.

First, I would like to make a couple requests to anyone posting in this thread:

1. No insults. If you disagree with someone’s argument, quote the specifics and provide contradicting evidence. As in any debate, you are not here to convince your opponent, you are here to convince the people in the audience.

2. Read the thread before posting! If you are just joining the debate and we are on page 10, 20, or so on, read the previous pages before you repeat an argument that has likely already been put forward.

3. Provide sources if you quote a statistic or a “fact” to support your premise.

Now, as for my contribution to the debate, I would like to give a bit of background to myself to lend some perspective to my education/ideals/philosophy. Posters who decide to join into the debate can help others understand them by doing the same.

I was born and raised in the south, and as is typical of the area, was raised into the Christian faith, specifically Baptist at the time. Being a type A personality and never wanting to do anything half way, I took the words of the bible literally and believed there was no greater good than to spread the word of the lord. I believed I could only be happy through god, and eventually became a missionary, traveling to India, Africa, and South America doing civil service and mission work to lead the masses to god and thus save their souls. However, through my travels and my pursuit to understand the word of god more, I began to research the history of Christianity, the actual documents that we have available, and the origins of how this religion started. I also started my degree in physics, later branching out to biology, chemistry, and mathematics before going to graduate levels. As I learned more and more about the true history of not only Christianity, but all religions, I began to question many of the things I once took for granted. As my studies of the sciences grew, I began to gradually move away from the aspirations of improving my faith, and more into examining every tenant I once held dear, to determine their validity.

When I finished the search, I was shocked to find that there was not one tenant of faith that survived the logical analysis, that my philosophical metamorphosis from faith to reason had taken place gradually, and my perspective of life had been permanently altered. No longer was I the child of a benevolent god who personally loved me and provided answers to all of the questions I once labeled as unknowable. I was now a biological remnant of a universe following its entropic path. For the first time in my life, the universe was truly mysterious and most importantly knowable. Life was truly precious in its limited span, and my destiny was truly and without a doubt, up to me.

Now with that background, I wanted to specifically comment on a one premise brought up in every religion thread, and continue into other areas as they are brought up:

Q: Why debate religion? Even if it is all delusions, surely it can’t be bad for people to believe whatever makes them happy.

A: While an atheist should be the last person to attempt to influence others to believe as they do, one must realize that humanity functions as a society, and the information that is provided/accepted by the majority inevitably affects the minority. As a scientist, I state that there is a system of standards that must be applied to any premise, before we can call that premise and acceptable theory. That no idea is above examination, and that no dogma is beyond analysis. That there exists no definition of god that is not self contradicting, and that education is a responsibility.

The fact persists that if religion is indeed false, then we must accept that fact and grow past the superstitions that have plagued our species since we first looked up at the clouds and begged the rain god to rejuvenate our crops. The fact persists that regardless of how good a person may feel with the idea that a personal deity loves them, real world foundations and support will always provide a better foundation through good and bad times. The fact persists that one man working will get more done than a thousand people praying, and finally the fact persists that any idea that calls itself the truth, must be able to withstand any test, or it must be called out for what it is, a hoax.

In conclusion of this starting post, which will hopefully blossom into a decent debate between people whom enjoy this sort of thing, here is a few of my favorite quotes:

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours” – Stephen Roberts.

“The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church” – Magellen

“A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death” Einstein

“Which is it, is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's?” – Nietzsche

[Kaylia]

100 pages.

[Correction]

3 pages of Neosutra/Alleya trollbaiting anybody with a shred of religion in them, then a lock.

[Mizango]

Either way this will be epic...

I will get more into my past when I leave work. Most know it, kind of tired of rehashing it. It is much like Neo's seeing as how I was raised in a Christian/Southern Baptist. Life changed when I no one could answer my biblical questions and I realized that there was a complete absence of undeniable proof. Things for more complicated when my mother was murdered, after coming home from church and taking a mid afternoons nap.... etc

Got into physics, cosmology and biology hardcore in HS and college and never looked back....

[ZarakiKujata]

A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything. - Nietzsche

surprised you didn't include that. Ultimately though, I think the only position one can hold in regards to this minefield that has reason behind it is agnosticism. Since religionists can not disprove an atheists position and an atheist can ultimately never disprove the religionists position, the only logical position in my mind is one of doubt since there is nothing certain about either side of the argument.

[tyven]

noah's arc t/f?

[Dimmauk]

I just watched this the other day. I thought it was hilarious!

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u...religulous.jpg

I thought this was funny too. Good questions.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3208/...70c83b6626.jpg

[MrW]

So, I've read Neo's opening post. What exactly are we debating now? It was a nice little autobio with some good quotes by some respectable people. The mini Q and A section was enjoyable but I still don't know what we're comparing and contrasting.

"My God is an awesome God and your's sucks his unwashed chode."

(Does this work?)

[Mr. Flippy]

Religion is nothing more than mind controll for the ignorant masses

[Thistle]

http://www.hot-hot-hot-catlove.com/HouseMacro.jpg

[Mizango]

noah's arc t/f?

False.

Here is why I believe so. Let's for the sake of this argument say that Noah put 1 million animals on his legendary boat the boat he built out of wood would have been 15.7 miles long. A 15 mile long boat? of wood? Mind you we know of over 100 diff. species of insects, let alone animals. Again, we are talking as if EVERY animal on the boat were only a mere inch long. Were talking 2 of every animal on the Planet on ONE boat, no matter how minute. Ticks, fleas, lice, mites, bats, chiggers, Katydids etc...

Mind you, Elephants? Giraffes, Hippopotamus are all significantly larger than that. The size of this boat would make the entire Titanic seems like a rest room. Mind you, it was made of wood. Just one of the obvious flaws I found in this story, not to mention how its funny how everyone else on the planet forgot how to use a boat all of a sudden?

It just strikes me as odd.

[drwaffles]

The very idea of the existence of an entity greater than ourselves and beyond our comprehension, and the prospect of there being life after death is greatly comforting for many people. That's one of the main reasons that a religious person will rarely if ever conform to the view of an atheist - the knowledge in one's own mind that this is all there is and that once you die there is no enduring consciousness is comparatively bleak. I would like nothing more than to have the capacity to believe in a God and an afterlife, and there being more to my life than a series of highly complex biological functions. But unless I personally experience something truly paranormal, inexplicable by any possible understanding we may some day acquire, then that is never going to happen. And since nothing, in my mind, can ever be classified as being impossible to comprehend some day, there's no chance of this situation ever becoming a reality.

Many people write me off as cynical, intentionally awkward or simply someone who revels in misery and pessimism when it comes to my views on religion, but it's not the case at all - what I wouldn't give to be able to set aside rational thought and convince myself that there is some truth in it.

[Seraph]

I think anyone who thinks they know the answer for sure if full of shit. Science has yet to give me definitive answers to all things, and so has religion. They are both still racing to completely win me over. Let's not even begin the debate that religion and science may in fact be the exact same thing.

[Dimmauk]

False.

Here is why I believe so. Let's for the sake of this argument say that Noah put 1 million animals on his legendary boat the boat he built out of wood would have been 15.7 miles long. A 15 mile long boat? of wood? Mind you we know of over 100 diff. species of insects, let alone animals. Again, we are talking as if EVERY animal on the boat were only a mere inch long.

Mind you, Elephants? Giraffes, Hippopotamus are all significantly larger than that. The size of this boat would make the entire Titanic seems like a rest room. Mind you, it was made of wood. Just one of the obvious flaws I found in this story, not to mention how its funny how everyone else on the planet forgot how to use a boat all of a sudden?

It just strikes me as odd.

I asked this question in Sunday school when I was a kid. The answer I got was "You just have to believe"

If you haven't seen Religulous, then go do that now!

[Mizango]

I think anyone who thinks they know the answer for sure if full of shit. Science has yet to give me definitive answers to all things, and so has religion. They are both still racing to completely win me over. Let's not even begin the debate that religion and science may in fact be the exact same thing.

Place them side by side and go from there, not sure how deep your knowledge is of Science but that statement is not true. Science has a place to be wrong and is constantly correcting itself, Religion gets a free pass because of fear mongering.

[MrW]

False.

Here is why I believe so. Let's for the sake of this argument say that Noah put 1 million animals on his legendary boat the boat he built out of wood would have been 15.7 miles long. A 15 mile long boat? of wood? Mind you we know of over 100 diff. species of insects, let alone animals. Again, we are talking as if EVERY animal on the boat were only a mere inch long. Were talking 2 of every animal on the Planet on ONE boat, no matter how minute. Ticks, fleas, lice, mites, bats, chiggers, Katydids etc...

Mind you, Elephants? Giraffes, Hippopotamus are all significantly larger than that. The size of this boat would make the entire Titanic seems like a rest room. Mind you, it was made of wood. Just one of the obvious flaws I found in this story, not to mention how its funny how everyone else on the planet forgot how to use a boat all of a sudden?

It just strikes me as odd.

Who was rowing? Answer me this.

[ZarakiKujata]

False.

Here is why I believe so. Let's for the sake of this argument say that Noah put 1 million animals on his legendary boat the boat he built out of wood would have been 15.7 miles long. A 15 mile long boat? of wood? Mind you we know of over 100 diff. species of insects, let alone animals. Again, we are talking as if EVERY animal on the boat were only a mere inch long. Were talking 2 of every animal on the Planet on ONE boat, no matter how minute. Ticks, fleas, lice, mites, bats, chiggers, Katydids etc...

Mind you, Elephants? Giraffes, Hippopotamus are all significantly larger than that. The size of this boat would make the entire Titanic seems like a rest room. Mind you, it was made of wood. Just one of the obvious flaws I found in this story, not to mention how its funny how everyone else on the planet forgot how to use a boat all of a sudden?

It just strikes me as odd.

You know Ricky Gervais was telling that exact same story on the Daily Show last night. He explained why Noah's ark is preposterous in a much funnier way.

[Seraph]

Place them side by side and go from there, not sure how deep your knowledge is of Science but that statement is not true. Science has a place to be wrong and is constantly correcting itself, Religion gets a free pass because of fear mongering.

Religion changes, corrects itself, and evolves over time just like science does. They are really closer than you think. The easiest example I can think of is the branching off (evolution?) of Judaism into Christianity. Not saying one is better than the other, just making a point.

Religion and Science are both tools in a quest for better understanding and personal development. The religious person who doesn't improve is just as pointless as the scientist who doesn't improve.


Edit: There is an episode of South Park where Cartman freezes himself and goes into the future that touches on this in a comical way. The running joke is that people who don't cling directly to religion cling to 'belief' indirectly through science. I believe the direct quote was 'Science be praised!'.

[Mizango]

I asked this question in Sunday school when I was a kid. The answer I got was "You just have to believe"

That is EXACTLY what I was told as well Dimmy, it made no sense to me. I was once asked by by Mother's Pastor if I believed in life outside of our solar system to which I replied "yes". He laughed and said "Don't tell me you're one of these nutjobs that believes in little green men and ET?" I laughed and replied "Little green men? I'm not the one looting wallets telling tales of an imaginary wizard in the sky".

He subsequently told my mother who BEAT MY ASS when I got home lol. Needless to say that was the end of my church going days. The day I learned that they can dish it and condemn me to a fiery hell but cant take it when you laugh at their silly notions.

[Mizango]

Who was rowing? Answer me this.

It was being drawn by a line of hulking Porpoises.