Faith and Reason.

[Devolver]

Quick question:

Does it bother you (make you mad, irritate you, frustrate you, etc) when people believe in Christianity? Or people believing in any higher deity for that matter?

Now to try to add something to the conversation
------------------------------

I personally am a Christian(eh, iffy), but I also see the point in Christianity. Easily put, it gives people hope. Especially older people who are 'old school'. When they talk about Jesus, or go to church, they are happy. They love the stories, and to a further extent, the community feel a church can provide.

So I mean, if it makes em happy, I'm not going to call them out on it, to each their own I suppose. Im not going to look down on someone who is 100% shoulder-deep into the God thing (as long if they dont push their beliefs on me, which is HIGHLY frustrating, and ive met people from both sides of the spectrum like this).

I know when I meet an atheist, I'm actually interested on what their views are, which is why ive enjoyed reading this topic so far.

[Neosutra]

This is Meian's Friend again and this is my last post ^^

I see, for a man who has "finished searching," it is difficult to see you changing your opinion and in honest truth it isn't my position to achieve that anyways. When Jesus was supposedly around, He was crucified by the same people that He tried to bring into the Kingdom and I am in no way more knowledgeable or a better teacher than Jesus Himself. I wish you can find that answer. With your abundant Biblical knowledge, I am sure you are aware that this debate is all part of what is to happen as stated in the Bible.

I may be blind, but I can now approach my life knowing that I have a set of foundations taught to me that I can rely on. I appologize for not reading the first post; my pride let me jumped the gun and not sincerely think about what is going on. What you, Neosutra, has gone through to get to where you are today must have been painful and I hope you do not need to go through that again.

Actually it wasnt painful in the least. Never been happier than when I got off the opaite of religion. My life actually means something now, instead of some incredible set of tests until I finally die. I am responsible for my own happiness, sadness, successes, and failures. I dont coware behind the idea of a big brother that controls my destiny, and I dont look forward to an enternity of being on my knees in worship.

My life is more precious now, because it is all I have. You waste yours preparing for an afterlife that doesnt exist. Which one of us is making the bigger mistake?

Edit: @ Devolver: Re-read the thread and take a look at the "real foundation vs. foundations in delussion" before you bring back the "but it gives people hope" argument. The things that keeps people from drinking again during AA is a physical support group and friends/family, NOT magical beings turning alchohol into water.

[Dimmauk]

Quick question:

Does it bother you (make you mad, irritate you, frustrate you, etc) when people believe in Christianity? Or people believing in any higher deity for that matter?

Now to try to add something to the conversation
------------------------------

I wonder why that would bother someone? Most get bothered by the people trying to convert, inject the belief system into the government, etc...

I could careless if Bruce Springsteen was your God. Just don't bother me.

[Mizango]

I don't get how being anything other than being a devout Christian equates to being miserable, cantankerous and bitter lol. I've been told that about 4 times in the past year here, I know Neo has as well.

I live a wonderful, naturally optimistic, fruitful life and would not trade it where I am today for anything. Bitter? Angry? Nah, it's not worth it in the slightest

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Quick question:

Does it bother you (make you mad, irritate you, frustrate you, etc) when people believe in Christianity? Or people believing in any higher deity for that matter?

Now to try to add something to the conversation
------------------------------

I personally am a Christian(eh, iffy), but I also see the point in Christianity. Easily put, it gives people hope. Especially older people who are 'old school'. When they talk about Jesus, or go to church, they are happy. They love the stories, and to a further extent, the community feel a church can provide.

So I mean, if it makes em happy, I'm not going to call them out on it, to each their own I suppose. Im not going to look down on someone who is 100% shoulder-deep into the God thing (as long if they dont push their beliefs on me, which is HIGHLY frustrating, and ive met people from both sides of the spectrum like this).

I know when I meet an atheist, I'm actually interested on what their views are, which is why ive enjoyed reading this topic so far.

It's not so much a beef with believers, it's just a question of ^ Faith and Reason. It takes a person of reason a considerable amount of faith to believe in _____________. Whether it's a talking snake, an elephant god, reincarnation.

At this point in time no one has seen the wonders proclaimed in those ages that rose people to the status of prophet. Anyone that claims this status or to have performed these acts are scoffed at and paid no mind, and the charlatans that claim these things can never prove they can.

What changed in 1,000, 2,000, 5,000 years that these miracles were performed that they can't be performed now?

I like how Kuronsan (sp?) explains it that it wasn't a rabbit being pulled out of a hat but a slowly, but somehow designed, process that did involve science at it's core. I'd like to think there is something, but I'm pretty sure that something wasn't told to one or two people to tell the rest of the world.

[Seraph]

I am responsible for my own happiness, sadness, successes, and failures. I dont coware behind the idea of a big brother that controls my destiny, and I dont look forward to an enternity of being on my knees in worship.

I'm curious, specifically, why you didn't think this was true back when you were religious. In my religious understanding, free will and choice are _huge_ components and focuses in daily life. Any other assumption presumes that people are forced into salvation or damnation before they even started (which is a crock of horseshit, by the way).

[Neosutra]

I wonder why that would bother someone? Most get bothered by the people trying to convert, inject the belief system into the government, etc...

I could careless if Bruce Springsteen was your God. Just don't bother me.

Goes back to what I stated in the OP about us living in a society. Even if the entire theist populous didnt -ever- attempt to convert or push their view onto the rest of society, they would still effect us. Their votes on issues, financial support, and political followings shape the way the rest of us live.

I for one would be alot happier if half the voters in the US voted on things like the economy, foreign policy, and the environment, and not on wether 2 dudes can marry.

The "it doesnt effect me" line stopped working the moment we started building our huts next to each other.

Edit: @ Seraph: You cant have an omnipotent god that controls everything w/o predestination. And if you are truly in control of your own life, then what need do you have for a god?

[Seraph]

Edit: @ Seraph: You cant have an omnipotent god that controls everything w/o predestination. And if you are truly in control of your own life, then what need do you have for a god?

Omnipotent doesn't imply that power or control has to be exercised, just that the ability potentially exists. I think that goes against the concept of 'divine intervention'. If god has to intervene, does that mean he wasn't directly controlling things in the first place? How would a 'miracle' be any different than any other event in all of existence?

I guess your dilemma then, is that either you are being controlled, or being tested. I will admit, neither is a necessarily pleasant concept. I'll spin my little applicable slogan generator here and pull out..."Life's a bitch" I guess.

For me personally, even though I believe I am in control of my actions and destiny, that doesn't mean I cannot appreciate my own ignorance. If I can learn a few life lessons from religion, and become a better, more developed individual because of it, I can't possibly be any worse off. Maybe that's just one path to a destination, though.

[Neosutra]

Omnipotent doesn't imply that power or control has to be exercised, just that the ability potentially exists. I think that goes against the concept of 'divine intervention'. If god has to intervene, does that mean he wasn't directly controlling things in the first place? How would a 'miracle' be any different than any other event in all of existence?

I guess your dilemma then, is that either you are being controlled, or being tested. I will admit, neither is a necessarily pleasant concept. I'll spin my little applicable slogan generator here and pull out..."Life's a bitch" I guess.

For me personally, even though I believe I am in control of my actions and destiny, that doesn't mean I cannot appreciate my own ignorance. If I can learn a few life lessons from religion, and become a better, more developed individual because of it, I can't possibly be any worse off. Maybe that's just one path to a destination, though.

2 Major problems with your statements:

1. You stated you cant be worse off from religion. I think there have been a multitude of posts in this thread to the contrary.

2. An omnicient omnipotent god implies predestination, infact it requires it. When he/she/it was creating the universe, that being had to have known exactly how every atom would lay out, all the way out to your birth. Known what chemical balances would be in your body and how you would react to each stimuli. Known what location and time perioud you would be in (and thus what religion you would choose, hope you got lucky and was born on our side of the planet!). Knowing all this, this being supposively created the universe in that way, and thus the charade was played out. There is no free will if there is a god, only dellusion.

Edit: A quote relevant to meian:

"Be thankful that you have a life, and forsake your vain and presumptuous desire for a second one." - Richard Dawkins

[Devolver]

I don't get how being anything other than being a devout Christian equates to being miserable, cantankerous and bitter lol. I've been told that about 4 times in the past year here, I know Neo has as well.

Blah, I didnt mean to insinuate that everyone that doesnt have a faith in a religion is miserable lol.

Ill compare it to this. Someone who gets drunk for their buzz, and dont smoke weed. But, they never have tried weed, but still refuses to try it, because beer/liqueur is all they know. Both sides are happy, just different ways of getting there, etc etc

[Denchi]

To clarify a small point, since it's obvious I haven't had time to post anything really worthwhile.

I can tell you for sure, that myself and most Christians I know never thought they "Needed" God. I think I could have a lot more fun in life if I disregarded religion and just did what I wanted. I hang out with some really lame Christians (I also hang out with normal people too), and sometimes it's really boring. I didn't decide to be a Christian because I was sad about the void, or I thought life would be easier believing in a God. Quite the contrary. I believe in God because I think he exists, and there's nothing I can do about it. I think there is an absolute, objective morality that exists in the world, and I think that came from a higher being. I don't think "living" is the reason we're on this earth, because there are plenty of examples where giving up a life or taking a life is justified. I think there are higher goods in this world other than hedonism and physical life. As I stated earlier, science doesn't address normative claims. It just doesn't, it isn't ethics, and it doesn't tell us how we ought to live. Most atheists keep saying "Well LIFE is how we ought to live. Whatever allows us to have good lives, and not die." Which, to be honest, is quite absurd, and if you really think "Life" is morality, then I just think you're lying to yourself, because I'd bet a lot of money you don't live like that, and you don't expect people to live like that. Also, "Life" is not a moral claim, fyi.

But that's just me.

[Seraph]

2 Major problems with your statements:

1. You stated you cant be worse off from religion. I think there have been a multitude of posts in this thread to the contrary.

2. An omnicient omnipotent god implies predestination, infact it requires it. When he/she/it was creating the universe, that being had to have known exactly how every atom would lay out, all the way out to your birth. Known what chemical balances would be in your body and how you would react to each stimuli. Known what location and time perioud you would be in (and thus what religion you would choose, hope you got lucky and was born on our side of the planet!). Knowing all this, this being supposively created the universe in that way, and thus the charade was played out. There is no free will if there is a god, only dellusion.

By your argument, whether the universe was set in motion by god, or just always was, you have no free will because the events have already been set in motion. My question becomes how this can be used somehow in justification either for, or against religion? Assuming your decision making is influenced by your brain composition and chemistry, you are predestined to make your choices based on the applicable input you receive, which is already set to occur because of how the forces in the universe operate. The only exception to this is if somehow, some other outside force handles this operation of your decision making process. A soul, divine intervention, whatever.

I guess the logical counter question you would ask is 'If it's all the same, why should I care?'. My counter would be 'If it's all the same, why did you switch?' I generally don't see people do things just because. I'm just wondering if there was another motivating force.

[Alleya]

Blah, I didnt mean to insinuate that everyone that doesnt have a faith in a religion is miserable lol.

Ill compare it to this. Someone who gets drunk for their buzz, and dont smoke weed. But, they never have tried weed, but still refuses to try it, because beer/liqueur is all they know. Both sides are happy, just different ways of getting there, etc etc

I think I would compare religion to the beer/weed, and people who don't partake of it are the sober ones who actually see the world more clearly, instead of through the lens of a willfully altered reality.

[Dimmauk]

Goes back to what I stated in the OP about us living in a society. Even if the entire theist populous didnt -ever- attempt to convert or push their view onto the rest of society, they would still effect us. Their votes on issues, financial support, and political followings shape the way the rest of us live.

I for one would be alot happier if half the voters in the US voted on things like the economy, foreign policy, and the environment, and not on wether 2 dudes can marry.

The "it doesnt effect me" line stopped working the moment we started building our huts next to each other.

Edit: @ Seraph: You cant have an omnipotent god that controls everything w/o predestination. And if you are truly in control of your own life, then what need do you have for a god?

YouTube - Bad Religion - Voice of god is government

[Neosutra]

Not exactly Seraph, as the lack of free will is directly arived from the premise that there was a creator. If this is all random chance, then I am not bound by predestination.

And the answer to your second questions: It isnt all the same. You know as well as I do there are big differences between someone of faith, and someone not of faith. Specifically what you consider to be factual. The way you live your life. Things become a bit differently when you start asking yourself what the right thing to do is, and not the invisible man. If you think that a person who beleives in santa clause will have no degrading effects from this form of schizophrenia, then you wont understand the ill effects of someone that beleives in a supreme being.

"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of the astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." - Carl Sagan

[Seraph]

Not exactly Seraph, as the lack of free will is directly arived from the premise that there was a creator. If this is all random chance, then I am not bound by predestination.

And the answer to your second questions: It isnt all the same. You know as well as I do there are big differences between someone of faith, and someone not of faith. Specifically what you consider to be factual. The way you live your life. Things become a bit differently when you start asking yourself what the right thing to do is, and not the invisible man. If you think that a person who beleives in santa clause will have no degrading effects from this form of schizophrenia, then you wont understand the ill effects of someone that beleives in a supreme being.

"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of the astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." - Carl Sagan

For bold comment one, assuming there are no magical forces in the Universe, once matter existed there is a predetermined set course for all particle motion because of the forces present in the Universe. My question would then be (and there is another thread about this) do you think consciousness and choice are determined by things outside of the laws of physics?

For the second bold, I would claim that both religious and non-religious people _should_ do this. No faith or religion has all the applicable answers all the time. This comes back to people thinking for themselves. If some people use religion to feel better, I think others shun religion because it gives them the exact same security blanket. Either you feel safer supposedly having someone else in charge, or you feel safer supposedly calling your own shots. Both stances are both potentially delusional, and just boil down to personal preference I suppose.

[Neosutra]

For bold comment one, assuming there are no magical forces in the Universe, once matter existed there is a predetermined set course for all particle motion because of the forces present in the Universe. My question would then be (and there is another thread about this) do you think consciousness and choice are determined by things outside of the laws of physics?

For the second bold, I would claim that both religious and non-religious people _should_ do this. No faith or religion has all the applicable answers all the time. This comes back to people thinking for themselves. If some people use religion to feel better, I think others shun religion because it gives them the exact same security blanket. Either you feel safer supposedly having someone else in charge, or you feel safer supposedly calling your own shots. Both stances are both potentially delusional, and just boil down to personal preference I suppose.

Agree with your second paragraph, so will comment on your first:

Not quite sure what you are asking. Are you asking me wether choices in life are predestined by some physical constant? Or are you saying these choices are based on these random entropic occurances?

Just because you flip a coin and it lands heads, doesnt mean it was destined to land heads. Predestination requires aprior knowledge of the outcome, and no, physics doesnt suggest this in any tenant.

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"

[Seraph]

Just because you flip a coin and it lands heads, doesnt mean it was destined to land heads. Predestination requires aprior knowledge of the outcome, and no, physics doesnt suggest this in any tenant.

Assuming the exact same event happens twice, the exact same outcome should result. The reason a coin doesn't always come up heads is because coin flips are not all identical. The force of the flip, the air resistance, gravity of the ever changing positions of all matter in the universe, etc. At the initial start of the coin flip, assuming you were able to take every force into account, you should be able to predict the result with 100% accuracy. I'm not saying we have the ability to do this yet, but science has never shown me anything to the contrary.

So, unless 'life' causes some special exception to the laws of physics (assuming all physical relationships are eventually explainable), being composed of matter we are bound by the laws and forces governing it. Based on some initial reference point (I guess you could use the Big Bang if you want), once things were set in motion, how could they not happen in a manor fitting what forces were applied on them?

This is why I asked if you are assuming human choice is more than a complicated logic engine, supported by the physical matter and electrical charge that 'hold' it, which is based on the laws of physics. Unless there is either some force we are not aware of, or some sort of outside 'interference', my statement would be your choices _are_ already determined.

[Shinryusan]

Assuming the exact same event happens twice, the exact same outcome should result. The reason a coin doesn't always come up heads is because coin flips are not all identical. The force of the flip, the air resistance, gravity of the ever changing positions of all matter in the universe, etc. At the initial start of the coin flip, assuming you were able to take every force into account, you should be able to predict the result with 100% accuracy. I'm not saying we have the ability to do this yet, but science has never shown me anything to the contrary.

So, unless 'life' causes some special exception to the laws of physics (assuming all physical relationships are eventually explainable), being composed of matter we are bound by the laws and forces governing it. Based on some initial reference point (I guess you could use the Big Bang if you want), once things were set in motion, how could they not happen in a manor fitting what forces were applied on them?

This is why I asked if you are assuming human choice is more than a complicated logic engine, supported by the physical matter and electrical charge that 'hold' it, which is based on the laws of physics. Unless there is either some force we are not aware of, or some sort of outside 'interference', my statement would be your choices _are_ already determined.

Not to belabor the point, but where did you learn your physics, the 17th century? What you just stated hasn't been considered correct in, what, 80 years?

[Seraph]

Not to belabor the point, but where did you learn your physics, the 17th century? What you just stated hasn't been considered correct in, what, 80 years?

What part specifically? I'm simply asking if he thinks human choice falls outside of causality. Even though there are forces at work that humanity has not modeled, that doesn't mean that they don't exist and aren't all, relatively speaking, constant.