Faith and Reason.

[Neosutra]

News flash: Grand Unified Theory = Theory of Everything. Its just a another name for it in the community Kaylia, but im sure you knew that.

@Demo: It gets no probability because there is no reproducible evidence for it. Unless you happen to know of some?

[Kaylia]

Read my edit, I already adressed this, and yes, I knew that, that's why I used it.

[Demosthenes11]

@Demo: It gets no probability because there is no reproducible evidence for it. Unless you happen to know of some?

what is evidence for god? a rock that says "made in heaven" ?
To many, events are proof. The fact that some things took place and others didn't is enough. Because it is possible there is a grand architect of everything, it is possible everything is evidence of god.

[Vail]

to be honest, everytime I see Neosutra claim himself as a scientist I cannot help but not take him seriously.

irregardless of that, I think it's equally hypocritical to try to force people of faith to be faithless as the reverse. It's like trying to pound a square block into the circle hole of a Shape-O Toy.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA252_.jpg

Most people think differently, and no "answer" is gonna work for everyone, so stop having this silly notion that your answer is what everyone should have along side their wheaties.

You bring up society alot, what's your deal? upset that the majority vote decides which law goes into effect... well welcome to democracy. It's admirable to be passionate about whatever ideals you think should be present in laws, but that doesn't mean you have the right to supersede the majority.

on top of all that: even non-religious people vote for religious leaders, isn't everyone's favorite President a Christian?

what is it that you non-religious people want? abortions? stem-cell research? gay marriage?

all those will happen in time... don't tell me you're just upset cause we don't have them NOW!... typical spoiled american behavior if you ask me if that's what this is all about. Nothing worth having, isn't worth waiting for.

Social Behavior is interesting me but at the same time I'm completely up in arms about this "science vs religion" bullshit, it's just another way of people trying to feel superior to one another or simply another way of just straight hatred.

Myself and one other guy are religious in my inner circle of friends, the other dozen guys are atheist or agnostic. We never fight about this stuff, so why do so many of you?

[Kaylia]

Anyway, you have yet to refute the original statement. Explain everyone in this thread why you think it's possible to explain everything. Actually, define "everything". I bet you can't even do that.

[Neosutra]

I never said it was, I was refutting your statement stating that the Theory of Everything (the GUT) was unachievable, which only shows your ignorance in the field.

[Tristam]

I already addressed this. You can never recreate the same circumstances twice. The easiest example is that the universe is constantly expanding and moving. The universal gravitational forces on your experiment will be different each time you perform it.

I'm suggesting your theorem, for what you are trying to prove, is very flawed.

I think the really big problem with alot of people in the thread do not understand thermodynamics as it applies to biology. This adds the element of probability of something happening, but no probability is 100%, likewise it is decidedly not random.

[Tristam]

Myself and one other guy are religious in my inner circle of friends, the other dozen guys are atheist or agnostic. We never fight about this stuff, so why do so many of you?

Why do people fight over video games? This is a message board of semi-anonymous posters with less regard for one another as friends have in real life. Plus it's tough to recognize proper intonation and inflection over text, hence the whooshing in so many threads. Overall this thread has been relatively civil.

[Kaylia]

I never said it was, I was refutting your statement stating that the Theory of Everything (the GUT) was unachievable, which only shows your ignorance in the field.

Alleya: "Even if scientists finally come up with the theory of everything."

He was definitively not talking about the GUT here, so don't act like I'm the one who started this.

I reused "theory of everything" in my 2nd posts because you agreed with the original statement that refered to everything as in e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g, and like I said, I love the pretentious tone to this theory. I know what the GUT is, I know what Theory of Everything usually refer to (which btw, doesn't exclusively refer to the GUT and other unification theory)...I'm not sure why you're trying to make a case on this, when it's totally beyond the point.

You can play on semantic as long as you want, it doesn't make your argument less shallow.

-I WORK ON THIS 40H A WEEK, THEREFORE I KNOW
-YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING

to be honest, everytime I see Neosutra claim himself as a scientist I cannot help but not take him seriously.

Neosutra is the kind of physicist who turn sciences into a religion (despite hating it in the first place), but it's a common thing amongst theoretician who start believing the shit they put on paper without the experimental results.

[Tristam]

what is evidence for god? a rock that says "made in heaven" ?
To many, events are proof. The fact that some things took place and others didn't is enough. Because it is possible there is a grand architect of everything, it is possible everything is evidence of god.

It is also equally possible that lucky the leprechaun and wonder woman slide down a magic invisible rainbow and fellate a unicorn in my apartment every night while I go to sleep.

If you open the door for faith, you allow anything to be possible, because proof is simply not necessary. And when people decide to live parts of their life on faith based only on faith, they allow anything to be possible. The rules that require not working on Sunday are based on just as much reality and logic as the rules that say you will be met with eternal rewards by martyring yourself for the faith. The cultural density of this faith makes it so easy to control people to whatever end, good or bad. We are all born into a world where we are inundated with religion, most of us were not given a choice, as we didn't know better and everyone else was religious so it was a matter of going along with it and not knowing any better.

The counter argument is that reason can lead to bad decisions as well. Yet usually the scientific method (as a proxy for reason) self-corrects over time. It's been shown to do this on multiple occasions when people have abused perverted versions of science to promote an agenda based on ideology (see lysenkoism, nazi expts, etc.)

The current pope made his mark on "theology" with the "radical" notion that because an atheist cannot know with certainty that there is not a god, then they must have some measure of doubt. I reject that absolutely because every religion, every single religion, rejects some gods and not others. For some reason the rules do not apply to their version of god. In America it's been taken to an entirely new level, no longer must people ascribe to a particular faith, we shift our religions and dogmas faster than we do spouses.

Yet we live in a society where our leaders must fawn over a god in order to be elected. The teaching of evolution is constantly up for debate and creationists can get laws passed to allow credulous teachers to teach creationism. Homophobia and Islamophobia is rampant. Wars continue to be fought for "faith." Prosperity gospel preachers rob congregations blind. And faith healers kill people.

In light of the last paragraph, I think the reason vs. faith debate is valid and has real consequences.

[quannum]

what is evidence for god?

how about something that can create matter or energy? peer-reviewed, reproducable and verifiable. of course, this begs the question, "what is god" and im just supplying (1 or more) matter creator as the answer.

[Neosutra]

Kaylia, you got caught not knowing what alleya/me meant by the Theory of Everything, and have been back peddling for 2 pages, give it up. You tried to butt in your 2 cents on a topic that had nothing to do with your overly simplistic postulate, and were shown to again no know what you were talking about. You are just trolling for the sake of trolling, and have contributed nothing to this thread. Comment on your perspective of religion/reason/faith, your personal experiences, or go away.

Edit: As for the "science into a religion comment". Dont be absurb. If you want to state that I without a doubt hold a standard to what I consider fact, and ask that others do as well, then you are dead on. However I require no faith to do so, and believe no scientific tenants w/o proof. If any one of the principles of physics is disproven, I would happily discard it.

[Demosthenes11]

It is also equally possible that lucky the leprechaun and wonder woman slide down a magic invisible rainbow and fellate a unicorn in my apartment every night while I go to sleep.

If you open the door for faith, you allow anything to be possible, because proof is simply not necessary. And when people decide to live parts of their life on faith based only on faith, they allow anything to be possible. The rules that require not working on Sunday are based on just as much reality and logic as the rules that say you will be met with eternal rewards by martyring yourself for the faith. The cultural density of this faith makes it so easy to control people to whatever end, good or bad. We are all born into a world where we are inundated with religion, most of us were not given a choice, as we didn't know better and everyone else was religious so it was a matter of going along with it and not knowing any better.

The counter argument is that reason can lead to bad decisions as well. Yet usually the scientific method (as a proxy for reason) self-corrects over time. It's been shown to do this on multiple occasions when people have abused perverted versions of science to promote an agenda based on ideology (see lysenkoism, nazi expts, etc.)

The current pope made his mark on "theology" with the "radical" notion that because an atheist cannot know with certainty that there is not a god, then they must have some measure of doubt. I reject that absolutely because every religion, every single religion, rejects some gods and not others. For some reason the rules do not apply to their version of god. In America it's been taken to an entirely new level, no longer must people ascribe to a particular faith, we shift our religions and dogmas faster than we do spouses.

Yet we live in a society where our leaders must fawn over a god in order to be elected. The teaching of evolution is constantly up for debate and creationists can get laws passed to allow credulous teachers to teach creationism. Homophobia and Islamophobia is rampant. Wars continue to be fought for "faith." Prosperity gospel preachers rob congregations blind. And faith healers kill people.

In light of the last paragraph, I think the reason vs. faith debate is valid and has real consequences.

i think the difference between wonder woman and god is, at least to most, religion is grounded in history, tradition, and (again to some) prophets who have had something other-wordly occur to them. That is why if you started your wonder woman and leprechaun religion, it is seen as crazy. Jesus is followed as a prophet because of the things he did and the way he went about things which made him appear more than mortal. Other prophets are very similar as well.

[Neosutra]

Wonder woman saved alot of people, and was human before she found the amazon tribe. She also looks alot sexier in a bathing suite than jesus. Besides, you dismiss wonder woman for the same reasons we dismiss jesus.

[Seraph]

I'm sad noone answered my causality question, and it's implications on free will and predetermination.

/sadpanda

[Neosutra]

Got distracted by kaylia/demo tag team trolling. Ill check it out after dinner.

[Tristam]

I'm sad noone answered my causality question, and it's implications on free will and predetermination.

/sadpanda

Are you just asking why things exist? We don't know, we don't know why things have mass even, but that just means we're ignorant, it dosen't mean there's a god.

[Kaylia]

Kaylia, you got caught not knowing what alleya/me meant by the Theory of Everything, and have been back peddling for 2 pages, give it up. You tried to butt in your 2 cents on a topic that had nothing to do with your overly simplistic postulate, and were shown to again no know what you were talking about. You are just trolling for the sake of trolling, and have contributed nothing to this thread. Comment on your perspective of religion/reason/faith, your personal experiences, or go away.

Edit: As for the "science into a religion comment". Dont be absurb. If you want to state that I without a doubt hold a standard to what I consider fact, and ask that others do as well, then you are dead on. However I require no faith to do so, and believe no scientific tenants w/o proof. If any one of the principles of physics is disproven, I would happily discard it.

Your skill at dodging questions and making false accusation is on par with the best politicians. You should be proud.

And no, Alleya didn't meant "theory of everything" as in GUT, because his argument make no sense otherwise. He was talking about the event where everything was explained, which isn't the case of GUT.

I want to hurt you for repeating the same crap over and over about me not knowing what "theory of everything" is, when it's obviously wrong, and you're just using this as a scape goat to avoid answering my point.

[Tristam]

i think the difference between wonder woman and god is, at least to most, religion is grounded in history, tradition, and (again to some) prophets who have had something other-wordly occur to them. That is why if you started your wonder woman and leprechaun religion, it is seen as crazy. Jesus is followed as a prophet because of the things he did and the way he went about things which made him appear more than mortal. Other prophets are very similar as well.

I don't think prophets have had anything other-worldly happen to them, I think you're taking your texts a bit too literally there.

Also the only difference between wonder woman and god is what we make of them in our imagination. For the purposes of reality, they're both equally real. Just because comic books don't constitute as much of a tradition as your texts, it dosen't make one work more real than the other.

If Jesus didn't exist and there was no bible, and I just invented a bible and this Jesus dude, people would think I was crazy.

edit: I should clarify, I don't doubt the existence of a well-intentioned rabbi named Jesus, I doubt the miraculous nature of his conception and deeds.

[Kaylia]

Bolding it so you don't avoid the question once again.



Neosutra, is it possible to know everything about our world? To build a model that explains and predict everything physically, and leave out nothing?