Faith and Reason.

[Dimmauk]

Science makes a discovery, and religion always attempts to take credit for it. Like the discovery of life on Mars or Space rocks. "God put them there"

[Yuri-G]

I asked this question in Sunday school when I was a kid. The answer I got was "You gotta believe"

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Parappa aside, my only real feelings on the matter are: You do what you're gonna do, I'll do what I'm gonna do, and that's that - until we reach the point where what you're doing interferes with what I'm doing, and vice versa. Then we have a problem. And don't give me none of this "God is bringing down America because of the fags and the abortionists" crap to try and justify imposing your morals on me, if God can't tell you apart from your baby-murdering butt-fucking neighbor and sends you both to hell, well, then he's a pretty shitty God anyway.

[Seraph]

That is EXACTLY what I was told as well Dimmy, it made no sense to me. I was once asked by by Mother's Pastor if I believed in life outside of our solar system to which I replied "yes". He laughed and said "Don't tell me you're one of these nutjobs that believes in little green men and ET?" I laughed and replied "Little green men? I'm not the one looting wallets telling tales of an imaginary wizard in the sky".

He subsequently told my mother who BEAT MY ASS when I got home lol. Needless to say that was the end of my church going days. The day I learned that they can dish it and condemn me to a fiery hell but cant take it when you laugh at their silly notions.

Now wait a minute. Are we talking about religious belief, or religious institutions? Two totally different concepts. I think many people are anti-religion more because of the institutions, and not the teachings themselves.

[Cairthenn]

What if one of the two animals on Noah's Ark was gay? I guess that explains dinosaurs!!

Move on to a debate that isn't about some dumb ass giant boat.

I would like nothing more than to have the capacity to believe in a God and an afterlife, and there being more to my life than a series of highly complex biological functions. But unless I personally experience something truly paranormal, inexplicable by any possible understanding we may some day acquire, then that is never going to happen. And since nothing, in my mind, can ever be classified as being impossible to comprehend some day, there's no chance of this situation ever becoming a reality.

There, go on with that.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

I think anyone who thinks they know the answer for sure if full of shit. Science has yet to give me definitive answers to all things, and so has religion. They are both still racing to completely win me over. Let's not even begin the debate that religion and science may in fact be the exact same thing.

Science offers itself up for failure, so I don't think you can compare the two as one and the same. This is why any scientific theory, even when it can't be disproven as of yet, is still labelled a "theory."

Science in the end is absolute because it can be tested and proven wrong under a new set of circumstances or when new evidence comes to light, religion is absolute only because it says it is and expects it's followers to simply believe even in the face of contradictory evidence.

The two concepts couldn't be further opposites of each other, even if you have to make a decision in which you believe, science itself takes no leap of faith to understand you simply have to bear witness.

[zoobernut]

Now wait a minute. Are we talking about religious belief, or religious institutions? Two totally different concepts. I think many people are anti-religion more because of the institutions, and not the teachings themselves.

This is a very important distinction. I personally am agnostic however I am very against established religious institutions based on personal experiences as well as historical events. I feel like if people want to believe something on faith that helps them get through their life then they can believe it and live their life in a good way without an established institution telling them how to believe.

[ZarakiKujata]

Now wait a minute. Are we talking about religious belief, or religious institutions? Two totally different concepts. I think many people are anti-religion more because of the institutions, and not the teachings themselves.

The thing is when you separate the moral teachings from all the jealous god bullshit, you aren't left with much. Most anything of importance (not killing or stealing) has to be in place for society to function at all according to Aristotle so clearly if he could figure that out we don't need religious teachings at all.

[Mizango]

I have no problem with others believing, just the imposing part. I have a back ground in religion, I know the spiel, I just tend to gravitate towards facts as opposed to a 2 thousand year old book. We might as well say Homer wrote the Iliad and Odyssey based on absolute fact.

I am just one to believe that I'd have to see Scylla, Charydbis and/or Harpies to believe them. Bigfoot may exist, so may Champ, The Lochness monster and the Cupacabra. But until I see them then they are nothing more than myths to me. I like Cryptozoology and read up on it as a hobby and it stays just as that until I see proof.

To each his own though, I mean whatever it takes for you to life a fruitful and productive life without stepping on my toes is fine by me. Like I pointed out yesterday, when my daughter comes home from school upset because some bible thumping kid tells her that "She is going to hell because she does give God any money on Sundays", that crosses the line in more ways than one. Keep your shit to yourself. When I am looking for Ribs from a cookout, don't ask me if I'm saved. Fuck you, I just want some goddamn ribs, not a sermon and some homeless guy telling me my fate.

[Seraph]

Science offers itself up for failure, so I don't think you can compare the two as one and the same. This is why any scientific theory, even when it can't be disproven as of yet, is still labelled a "theory."

Science in the end is absolute because it can be tested and proven wrong under a new set of circumstances or when new evidence comes to light, religion is absolute only because it says it is and expects it's followers to simply believe even in the face of contradictory evidence.

The two concepts couldn't be further opposites of each other, even if you have to make a decision in which you believe, science itself takes no leap of faith to understand you simply have to bear witness.

I'd counter the popular scientific "theory" label with the religious "belief" one. They get revised over time as evidence is discovered.

Maybe we need to make a distinction between 'religious history' and 'moral belief'? I'll be the first to admit, in religion there is a great deal of bullshit thrown in with what I often consider is good life advice. I don't care whether there was a dude named Noah and whether he had a boat or not. I do like the lesson that assholes get what's coming to them. Very closely related to the principle of Karma. People often take these lessons out of context though, and it causes a whole buttload of problems. That's just me though, and I'm more of a 'spirit of the law' kind of dude.

[Kwijiboe]

People forget about scientific racism and how science was also used to guide and direct our beliefs--to give a specific and recent example, for the justification of slavery. Craniology was the study of human skulls to determine intelligence, evolution was used to suggest black people were the missing link to apes (Look up Ota Benga, he was also featured in Ben Button--for almost no reason it seems). Science changes overtime, and so does religion. People point out that the bible says we should kill homosexuals, but we obviously don't do that anymore. The problem here is man.

I really like how Seraph put it. No need for me to repeat everything else.

[Seraph]

To each his own though, I mean whatever it takes for you to life a fruitful and productive life without stepping on my toes is fine by me. Like I pointed out yesterday, when my daughter comes home from school upset because some bible thumping kid tells her that "She is going to hell because she does give God any money on Sundays", that crosses the line in more ways than one. Keep your shit to yourself. When I am looking for Ribs from a cookout, don't ask me if I'm saved. Fuck you, I just want some goddamn ribs, not a sermon and some homeless guy telling me my fate.

Absolutely agree with you on this stance. I always thought 'lead by example' was better than 'lead by force'. Sad to see many religious don't agree with me on that front. Also sad to see that people only go to church to donate money and get their name marked on some attendance sheet. In the absolute worst situation, for an intelligent person, church attendance should provide time for personal reflection, even if you can't pull substance from the specific sermon. One could also make the argument this could be done in the comfort of your own home though.

Maybe you need to move somewhere else, man. >_>

[Dimmauk]

Bill Maher: Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings who don't have all the answers to think that they do. Most people would think it's wonderful when someone says, 'I'm willing Lord, I'll do whatever you want me to do.' Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions and limitations and agendas.

[Kwijiboe]

As does science.

And you should really not be quoting a documentary. Especially one done by Bill Maher.

[ZarakiKujata]

I'd counter the popular scientific "theory" label with the religious "belief" one. They get revised over time as evidence is discovered.

Maybe we need to make a distinction between 'religious history' and 'moral belief'? I'll be the first to admit, in religion there is a great deal of bullshit thrown in with what I often consider is good life advice. I don't care whether there was a dude named Noah and whether he had a boat or not. I do like the lesson that assholes get what's coming to them. Very closely related to the principle of Karma. People often take these lessons out of context though, and it causes a whole buttload of problems. That's just me though, and I'm more of a 'spirit of the law' kind of dude.

The problem with what you are saying though is that when science theories get revised, the old ideas are thrown out completely. The same is not true of religion, because despite the revised lessons, the old fairy tales are still presented as fact. Religious people pick and choose what they want out of the Bible, but half the shit thats in there is down right repugnant and since there is not revised Bible, we are still led to believe that everything in the 'good' book is right.

[Saphirea]

To each his own though, I mean whatever it takes for you to life a fruitful and productive life without stepping on my toes is fine by me. Like I pointed out yesterday, when my daughter comes home from school upset because some bible thumping kid tells her that "She is going to hell because she does give God any money on Sundays", that crosses the line in more ways than one. Keep your shit to yourself. When I am looking for Ribs from a cookout, don't ask me if I'm saved. Fuck you, I just want some goddamn ribs, not a sermon and some homeless guy telling me my fate.

If that's the case, then I don't want Bill Mahr in my face saying how much of an idiot I am for having my beliefs, nor the Oscar speeches from people continually saying how Catholic priests are nothing more than child molesters. Or how nothing good has ever game from people with religion.

Me personally, I am Catholic and I'm quite proud to be Catholic and have my religion to ground me and faith to use as a moral compass. I'm sure though this will be tossed aside with some comment about how I can have an opinion but it's wrong or something like that. So whatever; lent started today and as a penance, I'll pray for the souls of people who continually think that I'm nothing more than just an idiot.

"If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is...." Pascal

[Dimmauk]

As does science.

And you should really not be quoting a documentary. Especially one done by Bill Maher.

Should be quoting Ben Stein or Al Gore instead? I agree with what Bill Maher was saying.

[Seraph]

As does science.

More that the institutions created in science (see a pattern here?) are easily corruptible as well. Are science institutions doing research for the sake of discovery, or profit? Are drug companies sincerely trying to cure disease, or just relieve symptoms to create eternal customers?

Both science and religion have been and continue to be tainted by money. That doesn't make either inherently evil, or destructive. That doesn't mean you can't personally benefit from both. "It is what you make of it" I suppose.


Edit: Let's not forget, there are plenty of idiots in every faith, just as there are plenty of idiots who are atheists and agnostic. Idiocy known no religious boundaries. Don't forget kiddies, Bill Maher wants your money just as bad as any greedy church.

[Mizango]

As does science.

Except science can be tested, right or wrong it can be tested. Give me one reason you believe, other than the fact that this oral tradition was handed down to you from your parents grandparents?

Not attacking you or anyone else, since most of your comments are simply "Science also", show me otherwise? One last question, what is your science background? Simply wondering how deeply you've delved into the subject is all.

[Dimmauk]

People forget about scientific racism and how science was also used to guide and direct our beliefs--to give a specific and recent example, for the justification of slavery. Craniology was the study of human skulls to determine intelligence, evolution was used to suggest black people were the missing link to apes (Look up Ota Benga, he was also featured in Ben Button--for almost no reason it seems). Science changes overtime, and so does religion. People point out that the bible says we should kill homosexuals, but we obviously don't do that anymore. The problem here is man.

I really like how Seraph put it. No need for me to repeat everything else.

Why is it ok to group all Sciences together including the crack pot Sciences, and it not ok to do the same to Religion?

[Mizango]

If that's the case, then I don't want Bill Mahr in my face saying how much of an idiot I am for having my beliefs, nor the Oscar speeches from people continually saying how Catholic priests are nothing more than child molesters. Or how nothing good has ever game from people with religion.

Completely agree with you there.

Why is it ok to group all Sciences together including the crack pot Sciences, and it not ok to do the same to Religion?

This was what I was going to ask depending on the answer to my previous post. There are plenty of scientists I don't care for and think their work is hog wash.