Faith and Reason.

[Kaylia]

Can't deny my unicorn loving leprechaun either.

Nope, I can't. It's the beauty of indetermination in maths.

We can use the razor to strip away most of its physical attribute tho, since they aren't needed to answers your original question, but it would just leave us with the initial indetermination

Why would anyone want virgins? Straight people are so boring.

Fine, just need the Internet then.

[Melchiah]

How about if followers of a particular religion were immune to natural disasters, or had other forms of supernatural protection. For example, the bible says faith will protect you from deadly poisons. Anybody wanna bet their life on their faith?

I'm so glad someone brought this up. See, the really cool thing about the Judeo-Christian God is that he defies proof by his very nature, therefore it is impossible to test him.

If faith will protect you from deadly poisons, but you ingest them with the intent of testing God, then you really don't have faith, and thus God is not obligated by his word to protect you from those poisons anymore. It's such a neat, well packaged setup, it makes me fucking sick.

[Eratosthenes]

I'm so glad someone brought this up. See, the really cool thing about the Judeo-Christian God is that he defies proof by his very nature, therefore it is impossible to test him.

Actually, in the book of Judges, Gideon tested God three times before he finally believed, so I guess it's possible to test him, but only when he feels like proving his existence.

[_chuchu]

^ Reminds me of a chem teacher and another professor jokingly testing the existence of a god by asking to be struck by lightning (much like George Carlin, bless his heart, rip, etc.)

[Linliel]

*jumps in*

Well I'm an atheist too, I used to be a pretty "strong" Anglican Christian throughout high school but I never liked the evangelistic thing. I thought at the time it was important that people came to God through their own means, not through me shoving religion down their throats. Over time a lot of things that seemed kinda wrong about Christianity and particularly the church started to frustrate me, especially when my youth group leaders and other church people couldn't answer my questions satisfactorily.

Anyway, I'll state outright that I have a lot of respect for some of the teachings of religion, and there are many teachings that are very common across many religions: "judge lest ye be judged", "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you", etc. These are nice snappy little general moral imperatives that have a human base to them and have been acquired by religion as part of their set of morals. I'm all for that, as long as they're decent and not contradictory in their own right ("homosexuality is wrong" is not one of those that I agree with, for example).

I have a bigger problem with religion and belief in (the Christian) God, though, which I haven't seen really brought up (though admittedly I skimmed the last couple of pages, but I read fairly thoroughly the first half).

My problem is related to free will and the fact that God, being omnipotent, knows what is going to happen. Since he knows what's going to happen, he knows whether you or I or anyone else will ever become a Christian. So really, he's a dickhead, because according to Christian doctine he is *deliberately* condemning many many people to a horrible afterlife because he decided that they were or weren't going to become a Christian. I mean you don't get much jerkier than that. "Sup people of earth, you are my playthings because I'm omnipotent! Hell for you, heaven for you, not like you get to decide, lol! Oh yeah but I'll give you the impression you have free will, but since I'm everywhere, including the future, we'll just keep that little logical slip between us okay?"

Also, in my experience the Churches are horribly hypocritical when it comes to traditions and things they consider sacred... where is the "judge lest ye be judged", or the sermon on the mount when it comes to condemning others for their beliefs or genetics or whatever... so yeah. That's where I'm coming from Not sure I'll be able to keep up with this thread, it's pretty fast! But I'll try to jump in when I can becasue I find this stuff interesting.

[Rammses]

Furthermore, good luck wishing that religions stop existing, because i believe a belief in god or gods will always come up.

Why is that? Irreligion is increasing with increased secularisation and education. Given political stability, secularisation isn't going to be reversed, and as more and more processes are automated, education will play an ever more important role in future society.

Once a society has turned irreligious (it's happening/happened in at least some parts of Europe, Asia), I could still see some potential for (new) religious philosophies. But theism?

[0ni0n]

as much as I would like to say "assuming" isn't the right word, it probably is with a lot of theists. I think it's a wrong statement as well.

Believing, however, that god is the origin of everything is completely different concept

That reminds me of Nietzsche's quote, "Is man one of god's blunders or is god one of man's?" I am inclined to think it's the latter.

[Beckwin]

holy fuck how did I miss this

oh yeah no internets at mi casa.

anyway: lolreligion

[Acturus]

As a physicist, i work under the assumption that everything can be explained.

What a wonderfully ironic affirmation of faith.

Of course, out of context sentence is out of context.

[Melchiah]

Excellent contribution, as always Beckwin.

[kuronosan]

I do like that statement though. It's one of the many reasons I stopped going to church.

1) If God is all-knowing, and he knows I won't worship Jesus, then why did he create me only to send me to hell?

2) If there is going to be a rapture and war against Satan, and Jesus is really God, then why would God wait to take care of Satan, who is no where near as powerful as he is?

3) If confession is mandatory to cleanse your soul and enter into heaven, what happens to blind mutes?

4) For that matter, what happens to vegetables who can't confess?

5) Why would Jesus condemn the stoning of a prostitute but allow the hanging of blacks and homosexuals?

I pray for comfort. Not for deliverance. Yet everyone else out there really thinks that prayer is the answer to their problems. My stepbrother was laid off of his job recently and instead of being proactive and getting an education (he only has high school) he's praying every day in church for God to give him a job.

Seriously folks. That alone is testing God, isn't it? You're basically saying "Hey, if you're there and you exist, do this for me".

Most serious religious people I know that pray always pray for one thing, and that's inner strength and guidance to make the right choice.

This topic blew up since I bowed out of one of the previous discussions but someone had asked me what I do and why I do it in terms of religious belief.

The answer is that I don't do it because I want to be rewarded or get into heaven. I live my life the way I do because it's the right way to do it. I don't like it when people laugh at me and make fun of me all the time, so I try not to do it to other people. I wouldn't walk up to someone else and kill their father, so I wouldn't want it done to me. It's pretty simple. That's the religious ideal that I took away from the bible. Do unto others, etc.

I don't particularly care about Heaven or Hell but I welcome the idea of the existence of Heaven (a place purely conceived of peace). I simply live as a good man because that's how I want to live and how I would want others to live.

Sometimes we all get selfish, ignorant, foolish, and naive. It's in our nature. The problem comes when you do it intentionally and with bad motive (which is subjective, I realize).

That is why I said sometimes it is okay to believe what you're going to believe. Scientology, for example, is a load of shit. Everyone knows it's a made-up story. Everyone, of course, except for the people struggling to believe something. Scientology isn't designed to better your life. It's a business. It wants to make money and wants to control.

Religions such as Islam, Christianity, etc, all were designed to at least help better your life in some respect. Many denominations have become about money and tithing and other things that just don't make sense.

The idea of tithing makes sense - it inspires you to give to the community you are a part of in order to keep it going - but some people believe that if you don't give then you don't care. It's even written in the bible that you're supposed to give a certain 'percentage' of your earnings.

Hardly seems like 'voluntary' when so many rules govern it.

Anyway, I slid way off course there. Moving on...

[Meian]

This whole "predestination" isn't accepted by everyone in the Christian community. The way I tried to figure it, based on my understanding, is that each person is given their own unique labyrinth with several paths and possible exits. They are given only a lamp to help on their way. Their "sins" would darken the lamp and "confessing" (not like to a priest but like to God or even as little as just feeling guilt for what was done) would brighten the lamp back. Some marks on the walls are better viewed with a brighter lamp. Exits can lead to what I suppose would be your "destiny" and may very well enter another labyrinth but becomes easier.

In a way, if you want to call it predestination to have these unique labrinyths for each person but there are several exits and choices to be made. Perhaps these labyrinths could be based on talents etc who knows I never really finished tinkering with this theory (and I use the term loosely). I've told other Christians I know about this and they like the idea and it is a lot less darker than this whole "Omnipotent Puppetmaster" people tend to exaggerate in regards to predestination for Christians.

[Melchiah]

Your theory there argues against the Christian model of God.

The Christian God is at once Omnipotent and omniscient. This implies predestination, whether you want to accept it or not. I can work it out for you if you want.

[Meian]

Well, I can't prove that no one knows our fates predetermined ahead of time nor can anyone else here otherwise but it is nice to think of a less darker alternative

[Seraph]

Your theory there argues against the Christian model of God.

The Christian God is at once Omnipotent and omniscient. This implies predestination, whether you want to accept it or not. I can work it out for you if you want.

Not necessarily predestination, but at the very least, absolute knowledge of all possible outcomes based on human choice.

Does god know what you are going to do, or does he know all possible choices you can make and their ramifications? That might be nothing more than a technicality, but I think it's an important difference. Also, obviously, I'll never get a proven answer either way.

[Meian]

Not necessarily predestination, but at the very least, absolute knowledge of all possible outcomes based on human choice.

Does god know what you are going to do, or does he know all possible choices you can make and their ramifications? That might be nothing more than a technicality, but I think it's an important difference. Also, obviously, I'll never get a proven answer either way.

I assume you mean that if I do choice A he knows the outcome or if I do choice B he knows that different outcome but doesn't know if I'll pick A or B? If so, that was what I was getting at but trying to make it prettier and more romantic I guess lol

[Seraph]

I assume you mean that if I do choice A he knows the outcome or if I do choice B he knows that different outcome but doesn't know if I'll pick A or B? If so, that was what I was getting at but trying to make it prettier and more romantic I guess lol

I find existence rather pointless if human free will is predetermined. That is the only way I can really keep god 'all knowing' but also account for free will having any real meaning in the long term.

[Alleya]

Not necessarily predestination, but at the very least, absolute knowledge of all possible outcomes based on human choice.

Does god know what you are going to do, or does he know all possible choices you can make and their ramifications? That might be nothing more than a technicality, but I think it's an important difference. Also, obviously, I'll never get a proven answer either way.

Or the stronger possibility: There is no God waiting to pounce on you and condemn you to eternal torture for having the audacity to make the wrong choice, so just live your life going down the path of least resistance, as is the evolutionary imperative anyway.

[Stiker]

Your theory there argues against the Christian model of God.

The Christian God is at once Omnipotent and omniscient. This implies predestination, whether you want to accept it or not. I can work it out for you if you want.

No, not really. The Christian model of God must also include free will and predestination would imply the absence of free will.

The teachings that I have personally gotten in both Catholic schools and my own church (Methodist) much like what Meian put forth. God knows the all the possibilities that you can take with certain decisions in your life as well as the outcomes/further paths that branch out from that decision.

As far as when you hear things are all "a part of God's plan", I think that can be a gross simplification. Yes I do believe there is a general point A to point B thing going on, but I also believe that you can indeed go against the will of God and never reach point B and arrive at point C instead. Also I can't see the "ending" of point B set in stone either. You can arrive there at various points in your life depending on what you do.

[Kuya]

Why is that? Irreligion is increasing with increased secularisation and education. Given political stability, secularisation isn't going to be reversed, and as more and more processes are automated, education will play an ever more important role in future society.

Once a society has turned irreligious (it's happening/happened in at least some parts of Europe, Asia), I could still see some potential for (new) religious philosophies. But theism?

A progressive outlook on history is about as much a belief as a belief in Yahweh. If you've paid some attention, you'll notice that secularization as well as mysticism comes in waves. Waves inherently related to changes in political and cultural atmosphere.