Faith and Reason.

[Mizango]

I used to have this quote on the wall of my dorm...

"I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." -Albert Einstein

[Dimmauk]

Did you miss my entire post to you Kwijiboe? You keep referring to science as some existential entity that controls people just like religion does.

Science is -nothing- more than applying standards to what you beleive. Science hasnt led anyone to do horrible acts, it hasnt led anyione to do anything. Science isnt a motivator, it isnt a mover, it doesnt have agendas, nor can it be held responsible for the dealings of man anymore than we can hold the constitution responsible for the current economic crisis. "Science" isnt a theory, it is the method that we deal with theories, before we consider them fact.

Religion uses Science too

Proposed abortion bill would require woman to hear heartbeat of fetus
By Ray Gomez

Bills are already being filed for the 2009 legislative session, which begins January 13th in Austin.
Among those bills is an anti-abortion proposal.
The proposal says women who want to terminate a pregnancy would be required to listen for the heartbeat and get ultrasound images of the fetus before having the procedure.
Abortion is a highly controversial topic dealing with a number of moral, ethical, and legal issues.
Many people say it’s the woman's right to choose whether or not she wants to have the baby.
"We have the right to do whatever we want to its a free country."
"She doesn’t have to take an exam she can do whatever she wants every woman has a right to do what she wants with her body."

[Stiker]

Name one. Im sure you can come up with a few atrocious acts that you will blame the scientific method for, but I just need to get an idea of what you are talking about before I can comment.

I am not blaming science for anything. I am saying that people will use science as their crutch to defend what they are doing.

Example: Nazi experiments on Jews.

Am I blaming science for what they did? No of course not, that is absurd. Claiming science was the reason for such horrid experiments is a perversion of science.

The parallel that I am drawing is that people do the same thing with religion. The Crusades and selling of indulgences were an absolute perversion of religion. The blame here lies with man, not the belief in which they perverted.

[Seraph]

Name one. Im sure you can come up with a few atrocious acts that you will blame the scientific method for, but I just need to get an idea of what you are talking about before I can comment.

You don't even really need specific examples. Are you suggesting people don't use new scientific discoveries to their advantage or for personal gain?

Smallpox, gun powder, atomic power, etc. Abuse of the field doesn't make the field the problem though.

[FNH]

Name one. Im sure you can come up with a few atrocious acts that you will blame the scientific method for, but I just need to get an idea of what you are talking about before I can comment.

tuskegee syphilis experiments?

[Acturus]

Science = Method of applying a standard to hypothesis presented by mankind.

Religion = Set of beliefs that require a suspension of that standard.

One tells you what to believe, the other simply applies a filter to these beliefs.

So then, where is the equity between the two that would yield to positive discussion?

If one only exists as a definition of restrictions placed upon the other, we have no legitimate grounds for debate.

[Dimmauk]

tuskegee syphilis experiments?

Salem Witch Trials.

[FNH]

Salem Witch Trials.

I don't think anyone was claiming religious crazies weren't responsible for horrendous acts. We were giving some to neo who claimed science wasn't.

[Neosutra]

tuskegee syphilis experiments?

Thats not a problem with the scientific method, but rather the way the method was enforced.

None of the examples listed show any problem with applying a standard to beliefs, but rather display the fact that mankind will do horrible things, wether motivated by logic, or superstition. I would rather kidnap me for ransom, than a man kidnap me for his god's will. One can be reasoned/bartered with, the other will not.

This merry-go-rouind still goes back to the same premise that atrocities commited in the name of superstition are far harder to prevent/stop than atrocities commited in the name of some physical motive.

We can teach our children that the experiments on the tuskegee men were horrible due to their inhuman treatment of the victims and our children would grow up to hopefully not make the same mistakes. However when a person teaches their child that black people are "lesser people" because god made them that way, then the process of removing this prejudice goes beyond the simple tools of education.

[Stiker]

I don't think anyone was claiming religious crazies weren't responsible for horrendous acts. We were giving some to neo who claimed science wasn't.

Actually, Neo specifically asked where science and science alone could be blamed. You can't blame science alone, you can place blame on those that abused it. Just as you pointed out, the religious crazies are to blame and not religion itself.

[Seraph]

Science = Method of applying a standard to hypothesis presented by mankind.

Religion = Set of beliefs that require a suspension of that standard.

One tells you what to believe, the other simply applies a filter to these beliefs.

I don't think religious believe or scientific fact has to always filter or replace the other. I have yet to believe in any religious teaching that invalidates any scientific discovery, and yet to find a discovery that invalidates any of my beliefs.

Unless you think creation actually happened and was measured by the point of reference 'days' that are measured by things that didn't even exist yet. How can the first day happen when the earth hasn't even gone around the sun yet? That's getting far too literal for my tastes for a book that has been translated and updated a number of times. Doesn't mean things weren't created in that approximate order though. Maybe 'age' would have been a better word, but that's just semantics and not what the point is. So, if anything, science has shown to me personally that the creation story isn't a complete load of bull, which is impressive considering the lack of scientific knowledge when these tales were written. (You know, not counting the way too specific Garden of Eden story.) This is obviously just a single example, but it's generally where I sit on the subject.

[Mizango]

Actually, Neo specifically asked where science and science alone could be blamed. You can't blame science alone, you can place blame on those that abused it. Just as you pointed out, the religious crazies are to blame and not religion itself.

Beat me to it, well said.

[Alleya]

Great thread. I just wanted to comment on this one since it's an argument I haven't made already.

People forget about scientific racism and how science was also used to guide and direct our beliefs--to give a specific and recent example, for the justification of slavery. Craniology was the study of human skulls to determine intelligence, evolution was used to suggest black people were the missing link to apes (Look up Ota Benga, he was also featured in Ben Button--for almost no reason it seems).

Yes. The bible also maintains that non-israelites and women are inferior beings, and it is the truth and the word of THE LORD. Science has moved beyond such notions and no longer repeats its disproved arguments. Which one is more appealing now?

Science changes overtime, and so does religion.

No, religion is the one truth. It changes over time because people cherry pick their beliefs based on modern secular philosophy, NOT religious text. This is why religion is ultimately petty and useless--even the people who claim to follow it simply don't.

People point out that the bible says we should kill homosexuals, but we obviously don't do that anymore. The problem here is man

Someone's never heard of a Fag Drag. Or maybe godhatesqueers.com?

[Seraph]

Great thread. I just wanted to comment on this one since it's an argument I haven't made already.

No, religion is the one truth. It changes over time because people cherry pick their beliefs based on modern secular philosophy, NOT religious text. This is why religion is ultimately petty and useless--even the people who claim to follow it simply don't.

I'm sort of confused, because you said religion doesn't change, and then gave me an example in which it does. I don't think belief has to be limited to current society, or religious text. I think it is really a combination of both.

[Melchiah]

Let us examine some of the things that are promoted by the Bible as being pleasing to God:

In the Book of Joshua, the sacking of Jericho is described in all it's disgracefulness and barbarism:

Joshua 6:16-17:

16 And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the Lord hath given you the city.

17 And the city shall be ∥ accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the Lord: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because * she hid the messengers that we sent.

Joshua 6:21:

21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

The city of Jericho was "given" to the Jews by their God, for no other reason than it was full of people who were not Jews and did not bend their knee to Yahweh. Joshua told the Jews they were to put to death every living thing in that city; man, woman, child and animal because they weren't believers. This is the most vile, unacceptable and disgraceful behavior I can think of, to commit genocide for no reason other than an idea. And this behavior is lauded by Christians and Jews as championing God's will.

I refuse to worship any God who would tell me to murder people who don't believe in him.


Religion can never admit fallibility, otherwise the entire foundation of this concept of a God who is infallible crumbles. This is where the church, as it is now, fails utterly. All three religions regarding the God of Abraham are based on this idea that God's will is absolute and that God is never wrong. The problem arises because no one has seen this God since Moses, if he even really spoke to God. It all makes for a very convenient method of controlling people. God speaks through the church, and thus good followers will do exactly that, and follow without ever stopping to think for themselves.

Science on the other hand, is self-regulating. Nothing is accepted as fact unless subjected to rigorous testing and analysis. Also, the scientific world thrives on error being proven and eliminated in favor of correctness. It won't fall apart to admit or discover error.

Finally, my last issue with religion, specifically Judeo-Christian religion is the ruthless oppression of knowledge. This goes directly back to Joshua and the Jews slaughtering a city full of people who disagreed with them. Throughout history the church has aligned itself against the scientific pursuit of knowledge, because it naturally questions any imposed order that does not stand up to analysis.

[Alleya]

I'm sort of confused, because you said religion doesn't change, and then gave me an example in which it does.

Religion does not change. The words in the bible do not change, except when the Pope finds political reasons to do so. People cherry pick what they want to believe. Oh we can keep this stuff about love thy neighbour, but God was just kidding when he said to commit genocide on non-believers. Except in the bible, if you don't burn that city to the ground and murder all the women and children, you are a blasphemer.

So ultimately, people are just adopting the values of their society and saying "God totally told us to do this", when he most certainly did not. In other words, religion is useless and only provides excuses for extremists to practice their hate.

[Stiker]

Completely random aside/slight derail but this just hit me...anyone else find this somewhat ironic/funny this thread is made on Ash Wednesday? lol

[Zieara]

tbh I think when it comes to faith and religion, people need to mind their own damn business. I see it more as a personal choice. I think the best way to decide your faith, is to look deep within yourself. Relying on others for informed decisions on what you believe is foolish. I was lucky though, my mother never forced me into religion. She let me discover it on my own as I got older. Turns out, she's Catholic and I'm a Buddhist. We don't fight or argue about it, and often we have open discussions about what we believe. Most of the time, we realize that our beliefs aren't as different as we thought.

My 2 cents have been deposited into the thread. Thanks for listening BG

[Alleya]

tbh I think when it comes to faith and religion, people need to mind their own damn business. I see it more as a personal choice. I think the best way to decide your faith, is to look deep within yourself. Relying on others for informed decisions on what you believe is foolish. I was lucky though, my mother never forced me into religion. She let me discover it on my own as I got older. Turns out, she's Catholic and I'm a Buddhist. We don't fight or argue about it, and often we have open discussions about what we believe. Most of the time, we realize that our beliefs aren't as different as we thought.

My 2 cents have been deposited into the thread. Thanks for listening BG

And if everyone was like you and your mum, crusty anti-theists like me would be content and have no reason to complain about it.

I think the situation in Israel, where children are being murdered for having the poor taste to be born arab or israeli is proof enough that not everyone sees it as you do.

[Neosutra]

Completely random aside/slight derail but this just hit me...anyone else find this somewhat ironic/funny this thread is made on Ash Wednesday? lol

Wanted to see if anyone wanted to give up religion for Lent.

Edit:

To go one step further Alleya, I would have to say that even if no religion ever imposed itself on society, I believe there would still be a battle between faith and reason. Eventually, wether during a child's education, or during normal development, a person will come across these conflicts, these irreconcilable tenants that challenge their faith.

Whatever the belief is, there will always be a point where that faith is challenged. Wether it be creationism/evolution, "let their be light" or big bang cosmology, Dinosaurs or Talking snakes. There is no tenant of faith that isnt contradictory to the scientific method, else it wouldnt be faith.