Faith and Reason.

[Kaylia]

Yeah I know this is sarcasm. Kaylia got whooshed.

Wooshed by? Neosutra who contradict himself saying he has no beliefs, then later post his beliefs about what it is to be a rational being?

Where being "not violent" come from? You could rationalize violence in many situations. It's just a tool to control others.


I will ask you again. Where do you get those morals guideline of your? Is it "reason", or is it a "beliefs"?

[Cow_k]

Also, my position is agnostic rather than atheist. I won't discount the possibility of a creator or a designer.

Incoming "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AGNOSTICISM" to keep this going for another 20 pages despite the fact that once again it's just another 30 pages of regurgitation from the exact same people who've already written the exact same things twenty times over already. I really feel like people are trying to start some sort of anti-religion movement on an MMO board. Perhaps you guys should hit up some WoW boards to get a bigger audience.

[Neosutra]

Incoming "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AGNOSTICISM" to keep this going for another 20 pages despite the fact that once again it's just another 30 pages of regurgitation from the exact same people who've already written the exact same things twenty times over already. I really feel like people are trying to start some sort of anti-religion movement on an MMO board. Perhaps you guys should hit up some WoW boards to get a bigger audience.

Hence the reason to consolidate and have a place where people that enjoy this kind of debate can talk. So once again, here is the door Cow, get the fuck out if you dont like it. It isnt my problem you get your arguments torn apart every time you post. If you arent capable of keeping up, go play with the kids.

And no kaylia, you are still mis-representing the word belief for your own gain. And religious belief has nothing to do with entropic states, you cant equivicate my declaration of faith being bad with me stating that our physical system is a result of chaos and not diving intervention, they are unrelated.

[Eratosthenes]

Incoming "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AGNOSTICISM" to keep this going for another 20 pages despite the fact that once again it's just another 30 pages of regurgitation from the exact same people who've already written the exact same things twenty times over already. I really feel like people are trying to start some sort of anti-religion movement on an MMO board. Perhaps you guys should hit up some WoW boards to get a bigger audience.

Of course there's such a thing as agnosticism. I'm agnostic. I just recognize that theism and atheism ("not theism") are a true dichotomy, so you can't say you're neither of the two. So, a rhetorical question to those of you who say "I'm agnostic, not atheist": who's the god of agnosticism?

[Demosthenes11]

Hence the reason to consolidate and have a place where people that enjoy this kind of debate can talk. So once again, here is the door Cow, get the fuck out if you dont like it. It isnt my problem you get your arguments torn apart every time you post. If you arent capable of keeping up, go play with the kids.

And no kaylia, you are still mis-representing the word belief for your own gain. And religious belief has nothing to do with entropic states, you cant equivicate my declaration of faith being bad with me stating that our physical system is a result of chaos and not diving intervention, they are unrelated.

i don't think you will admit there is no argument that is logically sound that isn't yours, hence why you have arrived at your conclusions. nobody is going to show you a different light, nor are you willing to see that light

[Neosutra]

i don't think you will admit there is no argument that is logically sound that isn't yours, hence why you have arrived at your conclusions. nobody is going to show you a different light, nor are you willing to see that light

Oh snap, the "atheist are the close minded ones because they wont accept theories that dont hold up to any testing" card.

Nice play.

[Kaylia]

Neo proved me that agnosticism doesn't exist in our last argument. Just go read it. I'm sure it made sense.

And no kaylia, you are still mis-representing the word belief for your own gain. And religious belief has nothing to do with entropic states, you cant equivicate my declaration of faith being bad with me stating that our physical system is a result of chaos and not diving intervention, they are unrelated.

Way to dodge the question Neosutra.


From enthropy or logic, no possible concept of "egality" and "peace>war" can be deduced. You need to make another assumption, and that assumption IS a belief. If you seriously think moral is something rational, you're the one who doesn't understand the concept of belief.

[Neosutra]

Neo proved me that agnosticism doesn't exist in our last argument. Just go read it. I'm sure it made sense.




Way to dodge the question Neosutra.


From enthropy or logic, no possible concept of "egality" and "peace>war" can be deduced. You need to make another assumption, and that assumption IS a belief. If you seriously think moral is something rational, you're the one who doesn't understand the concept of belief.

You dont think morality is rational?

Really? (Also, it's entropy, not enthropy).

[Melchiah]

Incoming "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AGNOSTICISM" to keep this going for another 20 pages despite the fact that once again it's just another 30 pages of regurgitation from the exact same people who've already written the exact same things twenty times over already. I really feel like people are trying to start some sort of anti-religion movement on an MMO board. Perhaps you guys should hit up some WoW boards to get a bigger audience.

Seriously, what the fuck are you talking about? And why do you keep coming in here and shitting on a discussion you don't like? No one is forcing you to keep reading. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

[Melchiah]

Wooshed by? Neosutra who contradict himself saying he has no beliefs, then later post his beliefs about what it is to be a rational being?

Where being "not violent" come from? You could rationalize violence in many situations. It's just a tool to control others.


I will ask you again. Where do you get those morals guideline of your? Is it "reason", or is it a "beliefs"?

I understand that English is not your first language, which is why I'm giving you a free pass on this one. Neo was being sarcastic and ironic in that statement by implying that there is no morality without God. He knows it isn't true, it's just sarcasm and ironic language.

[Denchi]

The argument from you guys is always going to be "Well if we just become rational, reasonable beings that strive for knowledge through science and not faith, then the world would be a much better place."

After 31 pages, if you haven't figured it out yet.... it's a crock of shit. I'd be really, really surprised if you're still so narrow-minded in 10 years.

[Demosthenes11]

Oh snap, the "atheist are the close minded ones because they wont accept theories that dont hold up to any testing" card.

Nice play.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying people have their reasons for their own logic. You are not going to convince anyone using your own logic just like someone else isn't going to convince you using your logic

not to mention humans are illogical beings...

[Melchiah]

The argument from you guys is always going to be "Well if we just become rational, reasonable beings that strive for knowledge through science and not faith, then the world would be a much better place."

After 31 pages, if you haven't figured it out yet.... it's a crock of shit. I'd be really, really surprised if you're still so narrow-minded in 10 years.

I believe what I said was I propose that as we strip away feeble, unfounded excuses for being assholes to one another, over time we will discard these violent tendencies because eventually we won't be able to justify them to ourselves. At least, those of us who are reasonable, rational beings. The irrational among us will never see reason until they want to, and they will keep being assholes to their fellow man.

[Neosutra]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying people have their reasons for their own logic. You are not going to convince anyone using your own logic just like someone else isn't going to convince you using your logic

not to mention humans are illogical beings...

What part of us is illogical? Or is our nature to continually do illogical things such a damning factor that social/intellectual evolution will never overcome our primitive urges?

And no one here is suggesting that we apply just "logic" to everything. Logical deduction is indeed a matter of perpective and very subjective to the axioms you provide. However one would argue that a logical argument with fallable axioms is infact illogical (i.e. several theists here attempt to provide logical arguments with prestated false axioms which were refutted).

No sir, we are not attempting to "logic" our way past these superstitions. We are trying to test and validate our way past them. You see the scientific method (i.e. applying standards and tests to our hypothesis) is infact independent of the tester. What good is a standard if it is different for every observer? The scientific method therefore does not consist of a simple series of logical tests, and is not subjected to the difference in opinions of any given debater.

The two are very often confused because in a typical logical debate one proposes a premis, then provides evidence to support it, while the other side attempts to provide a counter-premis and refute his opponent's evidence with his own. As we move into the realm of discussing probabilities of supernatural occurances, it is quite obvious that we would start delving into specific testable scientific evidence (and thus the invocation of the scientific method to demonstrate the validity of our evidence over the evidence provided by the theist, or should I say lack of evidence provided by the theists).

Do you believe Demo, that a person should accept something to be true simply because they were told it was true, even if this 'truth' is unverifiable? Even if this 'truth' goes against evidence that you can comfirm yourself via experiment or observation?

If so, I have some beach front property to sell you here in Arizona, it is quite nice.

[Melchiah]

I just want my fucking beer volcanoes and stripper factories, fuck all this posturing.

[Neosutra]

I just want my fucking beer volcanoes and stripper factories, fuck all this posturing.

That's what I've been trying to say. If we can just get rid of all this sexually represive religion we can all get back to fucking everyone and be too busy to remember who we used to hate.

[Demosthenes11]

Do you believe Demo, that a person should accept something to be true simply because they were told it was true, even if this 'truth' is unverifiable? Even if this 'truth' goes against evidence that you can comfirm yourself via experiment or observation?

If so, I have some beach front property to sell you here in Arizona, it is quite nice.

who cares? you are not being forced to believe. the organized part of the religion may be bad, but the belief itself = who cares. god will never be disproven and so trying to bring science into it anymore is just stupid. Let people believe in the matrix if they want, or in disneyland. The scientific boom did not happen because a bunch of religious people were convinced their beliefs were wrong so they started doing science. It happened because those people naturally didn't believe the things so they did different things. Live your own damn life and don't tell people what they should or should not believe.

What part of us is illogical?

the brain and the way it works

[Melchiah]

Sexually repressive and hate-mongering. Don't forget the hate-mongering.

[Melchiah]

who cares? you are not being forced to believe. the organized part of the religion may be bad, but the belief itself = who cares. god will never be disproven and so trying to bring science into it anymore is just stupid. Let people believe in the matrix if they want, or in disneyland. The scientific boom did not happen because a bunch of religious people were convinced their beliefs were wrong so they started doing science. It happened because those people naturally didn't believe the things so they did different things. Live your own damn life and don't tell people what they should or should not believe.



the brain and the way it works

Here lies the problem. Religious people are the ones making the laws and thus by extension doing the exact same thing you are railing against in your post. You think theocratic governments don't tell their people what to believe?

[Demosthenes11]

Here lies the problem. Religious people are the ones making the laws and thus by extension doing the exact same thing you are railing against in your post. You think theocratic governments don't tell their people what to believe?

yes because the bad guys are doing it so must you. your logic is wonderful

I said the organized part of religion sucks. neo asked about the belief itself, not the religion