Faith and Reason.

[Mizango]

Completely random aside/slight derail but this just hit me...anyone else find this somewhat ironic/funny this thread is made on Ash Wednesday? lol

I noticed that as well lol. Someone asked me this morning what I was giving up. I said "hope for humanity". They hadn't talked to me since. Awesome.

[Stiker]

Wanted to see if anyone wanted to give up religion for Lent.

Well played.

[Dimmauk]

My issue with Religion and Science is when it gets involved with policies and Politics.

[Darus Grey]

I was shocked to find that there was not one tenant of faith that survived the logical analysis

Faith is the polar opposite of logic and rationality. Why is that surprising? Logic is truth, so in regards to faith *at best* you can hope for Bang (!) Contradiction when doing a logic proof.

Rationality is making sound(valid logical arguments that are also sound) choices based on available data.
Faith is making un-sound un-valid arguments based on no data, i.e. a leap of faith.

[Acturus]

It's interesting that the only supporting document that seems to be used to condemn religion is the Bible, when the concept of Religion is slightly larger than an old book that was put together by some Roman Emperor centuries ago.

I'm sure I can go to Amazon.com and find several "religious" texts that attempt to update, expand, or further define the Bible.

It's like saying the entire field of modern Physics references nothing but Thales' philosophical notes.

Religion, even Christianity specifically, is a little more robust than that.

[Seraph]

Religion does not change. The words in the bible do not change, except when the Pope finds political reasons to do so.

I'm assuming that you are referring specifically to Catholicism since you mentioned the pope, but the fact that the books have been translated literally contradicts what you have said. That doesn't even include the fact that there are many different versions and additions to the Bible depending on which version of Christianity you are talking about. In addition, by virtue of people dying and passing on the information, the information and how it is acted upon change as well, since you have new individuals using these tools and knowledge.

Not all religious evolution happens as a result of those in power in a religion.

[Mizango]

Wanted to see if anyone wanted to give up religion for Lent.

Real life trolling, well done sir.

[Dimmauk]

Wanted to see if anyone wanted to give up religion for Lent.

My mom called me and asked what I was giving up for lent. I told her I was giving quitting using the phone.

[Melchiah]

It's interesting that the only supporting document that seems to be used to condemn religion is the Bible, when the concept of Religion is slightly larger than an old book that was put together by some Roman Emperor centuries ago.

I'm sure I can go to Amazon.com and find several "religious" texts that attempt to update, expand, or further define the Bible.

It's like saying the entire field of modern Physics references nothing but Thales' philosophical notes.

Religion, even Christianity specifically, is a little more robust than that.

The reason is that you don't find Buddhist monks kicking down your door and shoving their bullshit down your throat, OR getting themselves elected and writing/passing legislation based on their bullshit. Bible-beaters do both of these things, and it pisses people off.

[Seraph]

Wanted to see if anyone wanted to give up religion for Lent.

I gave up lenten sacrifices years ago for lent. I may have divided by zero on that one.

[Stiker]

I'm assuming that you are referring specifically to Catholicism since you mentioned the pope, but the fact that the books have been translated literally contradicts what you have said. That doesn't even include the fact that there are many different versions and additions to the Bible depending on which version of Christianity you are talking about. In addition, by virtue of people dying and passing on the information, the information and how it is acted upon change as well, since you have new individuals using these tools and knowledge.

Not all religious evolution happens as a result of those in power in a religion.

To add on to this, the books in the Bible were even decided in the Council of Nicea (I know I spelled it wrong...). There were many different accepted versions of what the Bible was before that. Plus there are currently a multitude of different translations and it is shocking how much they can differ.

[Seraph]

I guess as a counter question, do people actually have a problem with others believing in a higher power? I don't mean the silly details and traditions that religions often get into, but I mean religion for the sake of religion?

I often wonder how true the saying 'The devil is in the details' often is.

[Alleya]

I'm assuming that you are referring specifically to Catholicism since you mentioned the pope, but the fact that the books have been translated literally contradicts what you have said. That doesn't even include the fact that there are many different versions and additions to the Bible depending on which version of Christianity you are talking about. In addition, by virtue of people dying and passing on the information, the information and how it is acted upon change as well, since you have new individuals using these tools and knowledge.

Not all religious evolution happens as a result of those in power in a religion.

Look...you're making logical points. Perfectly logical. Except it's about nothing.

Let me break it down.

Ask any door-to-door religious person if their religion is the truth.

Yes.

Is it THE truth?

Yes.

Is it the ultimate, final truth?

Yes.

Then by definition, it cannot change. The fact that it does change means that it's not the truth. And if it's not the truth, but claims to be the truth, that makes it bullshit.

PS I'm aware of the nature and history of the bible. Its sordid past only lends strength to my argument.

[Zieara]

I think the situation in Israel, where children are being murdered for having the poor taste to be born arab or israeli is proof enough that not everyone sees it as you do.

Kinda sad when you can be killed for having the wrong belief/parents, even today. Guess the world still needs a heaping helping of understanding, with a side dash of forgiveness for good taste.

Only thing I can really do to help the situation, is the same thing my mother did. Give my children a clean slate to decide what they believe. Hopefully this will foster the open-mindedness for things like this to stop happening.

Sorry if I sound sappy, I kinda am though huh? lol

[drwaffles]

At least we've established that the Bible most certainly is not "God's Word". One core belief down, thousands more to go.

[barber2006]

I will chime in with my usual offering in posts like this and say this.....

If theists were actually concerned about furthering their viewpoint they would pick up a book by Kant and Hume and really search out the premises they make.

Likewise, if atheists were concerned about challenging their presuppositions it wouldn't take long to read through contemporary apologists such as Alvin Plantinga (I would suggest contemporary thinkers over scholars such as Anselm and Aquinas for ease of reading and a more thorough approach due to advances in science).

But instead of growing people will argue semantics back and forth picking apart each others quotes not for personal growth, but to prove they are right. Already page 3 (perhaps 4 by the time I type this) and no mention of any of the primary theological/metaphysical topics that are the true meeting points of classic believer/non-believer discussion.

--The problem of evil (Hume and Plantinga)
--The historical 'proofs' of God (cosmological/teleological etc)
--The question of 'why there is something rather than nothing'
--Ambiguity in Religious experience
--The principle of credulity
--What the anthropic principle means for a debate of creation
--Rationalism and its faults
--Free agency vs determinism and how this interplays with the problem of evil
--Science as a descriptive force vs a prescriptive force
--The massive difference in Hebrew vs Greek philosophy and how that affected the bible
--etc etc etc


I'm not trying to sound condescending, but if you are looking for truth then go to your nearest university and ask their philosophy of religion professor to give you some reading material instead of chirping back and forth in a debate with someone who may very well be 12 years old.

[Neosutra]

I guess as a counter question, do people actually have a problem with others believing in a higher power? I don't mean the silly details and traditions that religions often get into, but I mean religion for the sake of religion?

I often wonder how true the saying 'The devil is in the details' often is.

Nice question, and Im sure there are plenty that dont.

I'll however have to reach above this and state that I do disagree with it. However that doesnt mean I feel I should force these people to not believe that way. I believe that assigning a creator or grand designer takes away from the true physical mystery that is our universe. One of our greatest biproducts of self awareness is the ability to ask the great questions of life. What good does it serve us to quickly answer these questions with the first thing that comes to mind?

Curiosity and the human spirit of imagination are our greatest traits, why subdue those qualities with limitations in the form of celestial dieties that are beyond our understanding.

Edit: Barber, why dont you go into one of those premises yourself, and offer some material to ponder/debate. Simply posting the top 10 religious debate topics doesnt lend any weight to either side. However I would state many of those meeting points are rather trivially removed.

[Mizango]

I guess as a counter question, do people actually have a problem with others believing in a higher power? I don't mean the silly details and traditions that religions often get into, but I mean religion for the sake of religion?

I personally don't have an issue in what people believe, as long as it doesn't not infringe on my well being. The random knocks on the doors inviting me to church, my daughter coming home upset, approaching me in the store asking me if I am prepared for the rapture etc.....

Those are things I take personal.

[Stiker]

Curiosity and the human spirit of imagination are our greatest traits, why subdue those qualities with limitations in the form of celestial dieties that are beyond our understanding.

Well, personally, if you are religious and never really question what you believe, you aren't doing it right. If we are supposed to grow spiritually, I can't see how you do that without asking questions.

[MrW]

Amen! Your views are your views. Don't press the issue with me. If I want to partake in what you believe in, I'll show up. If not, stay away from me. Don't come to my door, don't talk to my children and don't pester me when I'm trying to decide if I want Starcrunches or swiss cakes.

Like those jackasses selling phones in those kiosks. I have a phone. Yes, I know you sell them too. If I need a new one I'll let you know.