Faith and Reason.

[Kaylia]

There is no way to assume that it can answer everything. However, there is also no way you can assume that anything is unanswerable. You have no way to know what is and isn't answerable. You are making the assumption that we will never understand our existence outside the realm of god. I'm simply rejecting that position. I can't say we will ever know the truth, but there is no reason to assume that your position is true. Until you can meet the burden of proof, this will remain unchanged.

It's not an assumption, we will never be able to understand why the exist instead of the opposite.

[kareface]

Kareface, if you don't want to argue with logic, I'm out of here. All you say is "it doesnt make sense", but you don't even attempt to attack the logic behind the argument.


You bold thing like they are statement of truth, but those truths only work for you and your specific set of beliefs. Too bad you don't realize this, because it could be an interesting discussion otherwise.

Because if I use your definitions, I can explain anything, in anyway I see fit. You can pretend that it's all a matter of how I view the world. If I change axioms to allow for the existence of god, there is no limit to what I could make claims to. Anything that I'd have to change to allow for god, would open the door to any other fantasy I could come up with. The argument would degrade in to who has the more elaborate fantasy. You are running back to redefine words because you can't actually defend your position with out doing so.

It's not an assumption, we will never be able to understand why the exist instead of the opposite.

There's no way you can possibly know that. You don't know how our understanding of the world will evolve, how our brains and senses will change in the future. There is no way to know what we will or won't be capable of understanding.

[kareface]

Ok, I'll accept the same Axioms that you must accept to define your god. IN that case god can't exist, because in my opinion the magic water buffalo in the sky is mistakenly responsible for everything. You can't prove me wrong. From now on the rest of the thread is God vs MWB.

WHAT NOW!?

There's no point is using your "view" because we might as well break out the dungeons and dragons after that.

[Demosthenes11]

Ok, I'll accept the same Axioms that you must accept to define your god. IN that case god can't exist, because in my opinion the magic water buffalo in the sky is mistakenly responsible for everything. You can't prove me wrong. From now on the rest of the thread is God vs MWB.

WHAT NOW!?

There's no point is using your "view" because we might as well break out the dungeons and dragons after that.

god and MWB are the same thing, as i said earlier

[kareface]

god and MWB are the same thing, as i said earlier

No, because MWB exists inside of nature, but no ones ever seen him.

[Demosthenes11]

that doesn't meet the criteria for existing in our reality

[kareface]

that doesn't meet the criteria for existing in our reality

Nether did Bactria until a little while ago. He's there, and you can't prove he's not. Oh, and you know those times when women are mad at you, but they refuse to tell you why, that's caused by him as well. AND MWB could kick the shit out of god anyway.

[Demosthenes11]

not worth the time, i'll stop now

[kareface]

not worth the time, i'll stop now

That's what atheists think about god. You are now a AMagicWatterBuffaloist. You're so dumb, look at all the proof. He's out there, every time a woman gets mad and doesn't tell you the reason why she's upset, it makes my case. Also, my god tastes like beef, but contains much less fat. He's the healthy alternative to Jesus.

See how much more fun it is to argue with people using your axioms.

[kareface]

You can't have it both ways. You can't expect me to dump my axioms for yours, only to not allow me to use them to define things as I see fit. If there is no need for evidence, then I can define it however I please. If you expect me to argue using the axioms that prevent this absurdity, you can't define a god at all.

What I'm saying, to accept the existence of god, is to really accept insanity. There is no sane reason to believe in god, and if you start to redefine things, then there's no sane reason not to accept the MWB.

[Linliel]

http://images.shoutwire.com/pic_full...1fcf83e4cd.jpg

I just found and liked this picture ^^

[thatwasnifty]

There are Christians that believe in predestination, and that some people are saved, and some people aren't, and that's the way God wanted it. It's a lot like what Jews believe. It's called Calvinism, you can look it up if you want to.

This is false. There is nothing remotely akin to predestination in any form of Judaism. There's no concept of Hell, for that matter. There's the idea of Gehenna, which only Orthodox and Hasidic Jews accept, which is a realm of purging that all people must go through before they can enter Heaven. I'll give Judaism one thing, it doesn't focus at all on the afterlife but rather stresses the important of living in this world and doing good things here to make it a better place, which Christianity forgot when it separated.

The burden of proof is never on the axioms, it's on the conclusion. Sciences is the only domain that require observable results. Basically, you're asking for a scientific proof that God exists, which is ridiculous.

This is also false, and Dawkins actually goes into detail about this in The God Delusion, too. Even if God is defined to exist outside our realm of existence, all three Abrahamic faiths still describe his direct intervention in our world, which makes him something at least temporarily material, and all materials can be observed, measured, and experimented upon. Furthermore, all of the evidence directly contradicts the existence of God. Praying for sick people to recover doesn't work, the world is more than 6000 years old, all life evolved from a common ancestor and are far from being "perfect" creations, etc. Therefore, it is incredibly unlikely the God exists, and natural explanations describe the evidence much better.

[Bingbong]

Just a question, maybe someone with a large vocabulary can help to confuse me more, but isn't the idea of applying man-made logics, reasonings, and processes to try and define the existence of something that made-man a little naive?

[kareface]

Just a question, maybe someone with a large vocabulary can help to confuse me more, but isn't the idea of applying man-made logics, reasonings, and processes to try and define the existence of something that made-man a little naive?

Man wasn't made by god tho. We were made by a process called evolution. That process, along with life, were both created by the Magic Water Buffalo.

It's another non-argument. If you make a change to the axioms of logic, then you can use them in the same way to justify anything.

You only have 2 options:

Accept the idioms the rest of the world has, and come to the conclusion that there is no rational reason to believe in god.

Or.

Continue to redefine words to justify a delusion, which is no more or less likely to be true then anything else I could pull out of my ass. My fictitious being doesn't even need to explain creation. I could say that MWB only explains the difference between matter and energy. It would still be as valid of an argument as the idea of a god that created the universe. Because it would meet the 2 major criteria. 1) Unable to prove or disprove its existence. 2) Explains something that currently doesn't have an explanation through its existence. You are simple rehashing the argument, god exists, but we are incapable of understanding him. To believe that is to also validate every insane persons ramblings. As there would be no way to differentiate between them.

Speaking of which. I'm openly recruiting for a new church. Any who wish to join may simply add my signature to theirs. You are welcome to add any quotes or pretty much anything to it. Under my church, if when you die, your faith is rewarded with a cookie. Knowing that when you die, if you don't believe you won't get a cookie, can you really afford to not believe?

[Tristam]

I love how the best argument people in this thread can come up with for the existence of god is something that's outside the realm of reality, experience, and observability.

He's the meaningless unreal floating nothing! And you can't prove it dosen't exist, so it might!

Wow.

[MrW]

God bless all of you.

[Tristam]

Again, where do you get the beliefs that science can answer everything?

Noone is saying this, but god is an equally poor answer for anything else we've come up with.

[Neosutra]

God damn you all.

And yes I will join the church of the MWB, how can I afford not to?!

[Bingbong]

So by your logic, we came from evolution...
So what is man made from, well, carbon-based molecules.
Ok, so those molecules are made of atoms, ok, so those atoms are made of protons neutrons, electrons etc, ok, so those particles are made up of sub-atomic particles, and so on and so, until you get to well, we're made of energy. Ok, where's that energy come from? Eventually, in your scientific viewpoint you run into a question of origin that your answer has to be "I don't know".

Is that now not something that exists without an explanation, yet still exists?

Is the idea then, that "yes it exists, but we can't understand it because we haven't found the explanation yet" something that can be used in both logic/science/reasoning and faith/religion?

When we all come to our ends, which helps to comfort more... that your atoms are all done with and you cease to exist as anything ever again, or something larger may be waiting for you?

I don't condone the nutjobbery that comes with religious zeal. I don't think pushing a belief (or non-belief) on someone that is not using their beliefs in the name of nutjobbery. I also don't believe that any manmade text is any account of any god's actual doing, but somewhere along the line of questioning, science runs out of answers, and the thought that we're all here because the primordial ooze dripped down the proper side of the volcanic rock isn't a thought that's comforting.

[Tristam]

God damn you all.

And yes I will join the church of the MWB, how can I afford not to?!

Heathen! The FSM will strike you down with his noodly appendage!