Burgeoning WHM/NIN gear questions

[Shinryuu]

Toss your suppa. I dare you. I double dare you motherfucker, say "DW sucks" one more goddamn time.

(Kraken means you'll 'overflow' 100 TP quite often, making the point exceptionally moot. Going from 20% DW to 23% DW is a very nice increase)

[FailureMidgard]

Toss your suppa. I dare you. I double dare you motherfucker, say "DW sucks" one more goddamn time.

(Kraken means you'll 'overflow' 100 TP quite often, making the point exceptionally moot. Going from 20% DW to 23% DW is a very nice increase)

Turban (5), Bl.Hands (5), S.Belt (4), Bl.Legs (3), Bl.Feet (2), Goliard (4), Haste (15)

That's 38% haste with Goliard body. 34% without Goliard.

34>38 haste :
1/(1-.38) - 1/(1-.34) = 1.61 - 1.51 = .1/1.51 = 6.6% increase in swings.

Going from 20>23 Dual wield:
1/(1-.23) - 1/(1-.2) = 1.30 - 1.25 = .05/1.3 = 3.8% increase in swings.

You're giving up a 2.8% increase in swings for 10 accuracy. It's not an awful tradeoff, but I think you'll get more gain in a better WS piece.

[Shinryuu]

I know. What I figured is, a melee WHM will carry both reverend mail and goliard saio. There is stuff where reverend simply wins on. Upgrading the reverend to have 3% DW (which I think is the best out of all the options) wouldn't hurt, but you're not going to toss the saio or anything. There's just a few more situations where the new body is even or better than saio. As for this tradeoff versus getting a better weaponskill piece... no clue, that's up to the actual melee WHM. Izzy, what's a common total TP damage/total WS damage ratio on average for you?

[Ultimagi]

I didn't get a Suppanomimi, because, guess what? Dual Wield sucks.

[Shinryuu]

But hasso doesn't work with certain types of (inferior) weaponry

[Izzy]

This is from the last Einherjar run we did. For reference, it was Skeletons and they were doing that AoE blind shit which explains the shitty accuracy:

Damage Summary
Player               Total Dmg   Damage %   Melee Dmg   Range Dmg   Abil. Dmg  WSkill Dmg   Spell Dmg  Other Dmg
Izzy                     27400     8.79 %       10572           0           0       16828

Melee Damage
Player            Melee Dmg   Melee %   Hit/Miss   M.Acc %  M.Low/Hi    M.Avg  #Crit  C.Low/Hi   C.Avg     Crit%
Izzy                  10572   38.58 %    521/176   74.75 %     0/206    18.53     40     8/167   41.43    7.68 %

Weaponskill Damage
Player                 WSkill Dmg   WSkill %  Hit/Miss   WS.Acc %   WS.Low/Hi   WS.Avg
Izzy                        16828    61.42 %      30/0   100.00 %     159/946   560.93
 - Hexa Strike              14903    88.56 %      26/0   100.00 %     159/946   573.19
 - Randgrith                 1925    11.44 %       4/0   100.00 %     360/586   481.25

As you can see, the majority of WHM/NIN damage will always come from your WS. Hexa Strike is a broken WS, that if given to any other job would be 3x as strong as Rampage due to it's modifiers. That's basically the only reason WHM/NIN is even viable.

[Izzy]

I know. What I figured is, a melee WHM will carry both reverend mail and goliard saio. There is stuff where reverend simply wins on. Upgrading the reverend to have 3% DW (which I think is the best out of all the options) wouldn't hurt, but you're not going to toss the saio or anything.

As for this comment, sure there's a few situations where a Rev. Mail with 3% DW would be nice (Mamool Ja Meriting etc.), but a new WS piece is better in ALL situations.

[Kriz]

Rather than create a new topic or ask this where the discussion will get lost, I'm bumping this now that the bodies are out.

So I did it, I went with http://homepage.mac.com/bobkiwi/.pictures/redingote.jpg

I'd like to just rationalize why I did it, and why I don't recommend it unless you are 3/3 Blessed+1 -

FM noted the going from 19 to 23% haste in gear, combined with spell, is a 6.6% increase in swings versus the 20 to 23% increase from DW garnering 3.8%. I think, even with 10 acc, that the speed increase here is more important for TP. This is why I suggest any lolmelee WHM who wants a RR for melee to make a WS piece.

That noted, in the case of capped haste, the math (should?) be:
Turban (5), Bl.Hands+1 (6), S.Belt (4), Bl.Legs+1 (4), Bl.Feet+1 (3), Goliard (4), Haste (15)
That's 40% haste with Goliard body. 37% without Goliard (due to cap).
37>40 haste :
1/(1-.4)- 1/(1-0.37) = 1.666666667 - 1.587301587 = 0.079365079/1.587301587 = 5% increase in swings

and

Going from 20>23 Dual wield:
1/(1-.23) - 1/(1-.2) = 1.30 - 1.25 = .05/1.3 = 3.8% increase in swings.

At this point the difference is much smaller. So I looked at what you would gain lose by opting to TP in RR and WS in TJ+1 versus TP in Goliard and WS in RR with 10acc/10att. I've zero'd out similar stats to only leave the remainder behind.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...liard_Saio.pnghttp://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...pon_plus_1.jpg

Cons for TP:                 Pros for TP:
4% Haste loss                10 Accuracy
Enmity -5 loss               3% Dual Wield
42 HP loss
22 MP loss
3% DW Penalty

Cons for WS:                Pros for WS:
2 Accuracy                  2 STR
5 MND                       2 DEX
9 Attack                    Whatever boost to crit lol2dex gives
                            Q_Q I signed my TJ+1

I submit that the acc boost on your TP body is worth the slowdown (again, in a currently capped haste scenario) and the potential loss of power on your WS. You could technically ws in RR and just be losing 10 attack, as well.

If the Dual Wield penalty hurts your tp gain to 100, you can swap in a Rajas over an acc ring, and even if your acc ring was +7, you're still gaining acc. And it is from the Acc boost and the related hitrate increase that I feel makes this worth it. Unless you are capping acc that is, wherein I'd use Goliard again.

Please, discuss. Since it's so easy to replace this body, I feel like if I change my mind it's not the worst thing to happen. Also, all I need is some haste augmented backpieces/ammo to make this perfect. That or some N.sash. :/

tl;dr - IMO, RR with Acc/DW for DD WHMs at 26% now (like what, all 5 of us?), Acc/Att for every other DD WHM. Swap to Goliard if you capped acc.

[Izzy]

Still plan on doing acc/atk. I really don't think in a realistic merit/endgame situation you're going to be eating anything but sushi. In that case, you don't need 10 accuracy or DW on the body piece since you can use your Saio to TP in. The acc/atk will help you in every situation because it will become your full time WS piece (it would be anyways if you didn't have a relic) where as that 10 acc/DW is only useful when you for whatever reason can't wear your Saio.

All this is assuming you're not a moron and are trying to melee in some NQ gear and a Fenrir's Torque. If you are trying to melee in NQ gear, you should definitely go with what Kriz is saying as you're going to need the accuracy.

[Akairyu]

I'm kinda wishing I'd gone with the acc/att Redingote but since my BLM's been seeing more and more use lately at LS events I ended up opting for the Macc/MAB to replace my NQ weskit and get me a nice nuking body for SCH in advance.

On the melee WHM side, my gear's progressed fairly well given my horrible lack of gil and luck in Nyzul (yay floor 80 Hydra with no WS). I'm still in the market for some important stuff like the Tiphia Sting, trying to pick up some HQ blessed pieces and waiting for the Swift Belt NM to stop being stingy, but at least I don't disgrace myself when I go a-clubbing.

I may even get to go WHM/NIN to a Bv2 cause my LS leader had me take the orb and I don't have anything else useful atm hah!

[Izzy]

I may even get to go WHM/NIN to a Bv2 cause my LS leader had me take the orb and I don't have anything else useful atm hah!

I tried that once!

It was somewhat embarrassing for me . I haven't done it recently though! haha

[Akairyu]

We've got enough heavy DD that my going WHM/NIN shouldn't result in a loss (i hope). At least I've got Auspice to help my acc now

I think someone said they were going to parse it to see how I do... I hope I don't flop too hard >.<;




hmm... who can I drag to do one of the Morgenstern KSNMs...

[whackwhackwhm]

just a thought...

when you have an off hand kclub... I would suggest focusing on TP gain. I cant actually do the math atm but with an off hand kclub a whm dd would normally take about 3 rounds of swing to get full tp. If you can take it down to two round of swings consistently then so much the better. With current available gears it is within reach to get to two rounds of swing (initial tp from ws + 2 rounds of swing). This is within reach even without outside support.

Is it possible for a whm to get full TP in one round of swing? I believe that this is the holy grail of all whm dd. The day whm will do self-skillchain faster than a SAM lol. With the introduction of the new augmented body piece, whm is closer to getting there.

how close? Let's do some tinkering

white tathlum +2 tp
chivalrous chain +1 tp
royal redingnote +4 tp
ecphoria ring +1 tp
rajas ring +5 tp
--------------------------------
+13 tp
ambrosia +7 tp
--------------------------------
+20 tp
samurai roll +40 tp
--------------------------------
+60tp

any comments? lol

[Izzy]

I barley ever get 100 in two rounds. I have to get basically 8+8 or close to it. Three is a better goal. With SAM roll that happens almost every time.

[deivi]

didn't want to make a new thread for this, but solo/melee aside if you ~had~ to make a RR for casting what would it be?

[Kriz]

Well, let's look at what bodies a WHM would probably end a spell in-

Cures/refresh- Nobles, Regen/refresh- AF2, Dark- Nashira, Enhancing- Goliard, Enfeebling- AF, hMP- Errant, Barspells/Max MP- Blessed, Fast Cast- Marduk

So the RR isn't a great body for any of the above. You could maybe make a case for nuking Holy/Banish body with MaB/Macc... But I wouldn't.

Honestly, your best bet is probably to get Fast Cast (unless you have Marduk, I sure don't) and make it equipped pre-cast on all your spells, before swapping to a real body. And, um, I guess you could use Avatar Perp-2 if you for some silly reason like to /smn more than /sch and you keep Carby out.

A lot of WHMs are maining the body for everything except cures with Enmity- and Fast Cast. That's certainly an option if you don't have all the bodies above.

[Avarghaladion]

(Kinda a mini-necro bump I guess but this seemed like a good topic for it)

I've always <3 whm melee but since mystic boon AND hax misery i've been using it a lot end game and i am liking the results. Aside from it being amazing in merit pt, I've been going melee style to einherjar t1-t3 (including bosses), salvage, limbus, and dynamis and busted out a /war bahamut v2 ftw.

I've only tried CoP dyna zones since that's all my shell does but it worked pretty well. The only boss I'd outright not melee is lolbubu just becuz of petrification. Also... while it -worked- in Dynamis-Tavnazia, it didn't work well like it did outdoors lol

WHM/NIN pwns hard in einherjar.

Just started using /NIN in Salvage. Went once Perdu offhand and the 2dn time I went KC offhand. Both times worked rly well but KC was just hax. With auspice i was even able to melee gears with it and there really wasn't a big difference in tp move usage.

Bahav2 /WAR was fun. It died too fast for me to get TP for a 3rd hexa but did 900+ with it and i forgot to use berserk ._. I'm anxious to finish Mjollnir.

Edit: RR Accy + Att ftw