Validity of an AV strategy?

[FailureMidgard]

It does an actual double each time.

If you assume all the scholars have 5/5 MV merits, it was decided you could get something like 11-12 MVs in and still have enough time on the Helix for it to tick once (MV doesn't force another tick, afaik). One scholar goes Sch/Blm, ES Helixes AV, then all the scholars MV as soon as it's up, and you watch AV die in a single tick. If the helix gets resisted or something, you wipe and try again.

[Ultimagi]

I think I remember reading a test on this, and the results were that Modus Veritas doesn't double the damage dealt per tic. It instead uses the damage remaining in the Helix and divides that by the new duration caused by Modus Veritas, capping the total damage dealt at what it was at the time of the initial cast.

[FailureMidgard]

I think I remember reading a test on this, and the results were that Modus Veritas doesn't double the damage dealt per tic. It instead uses the damage remaining in the Helix and divides that by the new duration caused by Modus Veritas, capping the total damage dealt at what it was at the time of the initial cast.

I'd like to see said test, I am fairly certain it is incorrect though. For 1, that reading makes MV merits do absolutely nothing, for 2, with MV merits, I've watched the % taken per tick almost exactly double.

[Ultimagi]

Just to explain further...
If you casted Cryohelix for 100 damage, and it lasted 10 tics, you would deal 1100 total damage.
If you used Modus Veritas after casting, the damage remaining would be 1000 since 1 tic is already gone, the new duration would be 5 tics and damage/tic would be 200, totaling 1100 damage. The only difference is that the damage is dealt twice as fast.
If I understand how the merits work, with 5/5 merits, in the above example, the new duration after using Modus Veritas would be 7.5 tics (floored), totaling 1500 damage.

Edit: If 18 fully merited Scholars used Modus Veritas on 1 Helix immediately after casting, assuming the same 1100 damage base as above, it would theoretically deal 2647 damage instantly then wear off.

[Araelus]

Increases damage done by helix spells while lowering spell duration by 50%. Duration reduction is lowered by 10% each upgrade.

If it works the way I think it's supposed to work from reading this, normally it's just decreasing the time it takes to do the same amount of damage. With merits it actually does more damage because it decreases the duration less while still boosting damage. With 5/5 duration merits the Helix does 2x damage over the normal duration period (whatever that may be, since it varies?)

But if when a second SCH uses MV, it doubles the already double-damage 100% duration Helix, and then another SCH makes that 2^2 and then 2^3 etc. and the total duration is never reduced but the damage keeps doubling, then it's incredible and yes you could one-shot AV.

This assumes a Helix lands for some initial damage, since e.seal will land it but it won't reduce AV's INT which could be huge and floor helices to 0. If it lands for 1 damage though, exponential destruction follows.

(Remember the guys with the rice and the chessboard?)

[Ultimagi]

With 5/5 merits, Modus Veritas reduces the duration by 25% but keeps the damage/tic as if it were reduced by 50%.

[Yugl]

Too bad SCHs are as rare as 2004 DRGs. At least on my server.

[FailureMidgard]

Just to explain further...
If you casted Cryohelix for 100 damage, and it lasted 10 tics, you would deal 1100 total damage.
If you used Modus Veritas after casting, the damage remaining would be 1000 since 1 tic is already gone, the new duration would be 5 tics and damage/tic would be 200, totaling 1100 damage. The only difference is that the damage is dealt twice as fast.
If I understand how the merits work, with 5/5 merits, in the above example, the new duration after using Modus Veritas would be 7.5 tics (floored), totaling 1500 damage.

Edit: If 18 fully merited Scholars used Modus Veritas on 1 Helix immediately after casting, assuming the same 1100 damage base as above, it would theoretically deal 2647 damage instantly then wear off.

I'd like to see your math on this, because even using your logic, I see it doing more damage than that after 3 MVs.

7.5ticks for 1500 total damage>
5.6ticks for 2250 total damage>
4.2ticks for 3375 total damage>

That being said, unless it has been changed in the last 4-6 months, I did test stacking 2 MVs, and it did -not- work how you are claiming, it doubled on both MV uses.

[Araelus]

1500 → 3000 → 6000 gets out of control fast. SCH is rare enough I can't find more than one of them right now who will help... which does nothing.

[Ultimagi]

Sorry, trying to do too much at once at work.

Initial damage dealt : 100
Total damage left : 1000

10 ticks of 100 damage totals 1000.
7 ticks of 200 damage totals 1400.
5 ticks of 400 damage totals 2000.
4 ticks of 800 damage totals 3200.
3 ticks of 1600 damage totals 4800.
2 ticks of 3200 damage totals 6400.
1 tick of 6400 damage totals 6400.
1 tick of 12800 damage totals 12800.
1 tick of 25600 damage totals 25600.

At that point the duration reduces below 1 tick, meaning the Helix would wear off before dealing any damage. That's a sizable chunk of damage, but it doesn't "double" the total damage dealt every time you use Modus Veritas.

Edit: 2647 was supposed to be 25647 I think, deleted the spreadsheet for it, anyway, its a typo.

[Araelus]

1 tick of 25600 damage totals 25600.

That's with eight MV uses.
AV has ~66,000 HP.

Doing two rounds of eight MV gets that down to ~14800 but then a seven MV doesn't pick up the slack.
So I guess we need 24 fully MV merited Scholars.

[Ultimagi]

At that point the duration reduces below 1 tick, meaning the Helix would wear off before dealing any damage.

I think you missed this part.

[Spekkio]

i can say from some of my testing that
a.) helix duration when landed without resists lasts somewhere between ~50 seconds and ~70 seconds. iirc, it never exceeded 71 seconds and outside of some very scarce low numbers was never below 50some seconds.
b.) modus veritas CAN reduce the remaining damage on a helix by preventing the next damage tick from happening. this was tested on a spider outside of AU. one sch hit the mob w/ a helix using ES to ensure at least 50 seconds of duration. initial damage proced then the first tick. after that all 3 of our sch there used modus veritas. the effect failed before the next tick proced.
c.) modus veritas does indeed double your damage for each use. this was tested in diorama with 2 sch and me the guinea pig. a helix was cast on me and 2 sch activated modus veritas on me. the result was a short lived helix that did 4 times the initial damage. this demonstrates that the formula for helix damage is initial*2^n for n uses of MV and NOT initial*(n+1) for n uses of MV.

future testing is required to determine if timing can be accomplished to trigger modus veritas precisely enough to sustain the helix effect until the final tick procs for massive damage. in addition, demonstration must be made that there is not a cap on helix damage/tick. eg, one possibility to cause this design to fail is if the maximum damage per tick on helix spells is fixed at 1,000 damage or something like that to prevent this kind of doubling down to extreme numbers.

[FailureMidgard]

So Spekkio and I both have tested it at some point, and gotten different results than what you are claiming Ultimagi. We have both seen x4 damage from 2 MVs.

Furthermore, the first "tick" after the initial damage is ~1-3 seconds in, then further ticks are ~9-10 seconds later. I'm not sure what #s you are using, but the "# of ticks" is not a good way to look at it.

Assume 50 seconds.

0 MV = 50 sec
1 = 37.5
2 = 28.1
5 = 11.8
10 = 2.81

Assume 60 second base MV
0 = 60
1 = 45
5 = 14.2
10 = 3.3

Depending on how soon it ticks (that first tick is definitely variable), you can get 10-12 MVs in and not lose the first tick.

[Araelus]

I think you missed this part.

What I mean by "24 Scholars" is
Helix, 8 MV. It does 1 tick.
Helix, 8 MV. It does 1 tick.
Helix, 8 MV. It does 1 tick.
Absolute Virtue has no more HP.

If what I meant was to use one Helix and then 24 MV... umm...

2^8 is 256.
With base damage 100 and eight MV,
that's 25,600 damage.

2^24 is 16777216.
With base damage 100 and twenty four MV,
that's 16,777,21,600 damage.

JIMINY JILLICKERS!

[Ultimagi]

Based on your numbers, you still come out to the same conclusion as I wrote, you're just wording it differently. You still get only 1 tick of 25k damage, with a possibility of maybe doubling it 1 last time to 50k before you can get it to tick instead of just wearing off.

[FailureMidgard]

Based on your numbers, you still come out to the same conclusion as I wrote, you're just wording it differently. You still get only 1 tick of 25k damage, with a possibility of maybe doubling it 1 last time to 50k before you can get it to tick instead of just wearing off.

Huh, you had 8 MVs, I'm saying you can go to 10 easily. I'm saying the ticks aren't uniform if you include the first tick (which is the only 1 we care about). 10 is going to multiply your value by 4, which will 1 shot AV. There is a significant difference between what you are saying and what I am saying. Also, I am saying you have a possibility of going to 11 or 12 with a high duration on the Helix roll (which is getting into the 200-400k range, that's 3-7 times AV's HP).

[Ultimagi]

You said yourself that the time before the initial tick varies. You can't assume that you can land 10-12 Modus Veritas without the effect wearing off before the first tick, unless you assume the first tick happens at the latest possible moment.

There's no point in arguing over this, nobody will ever get 9-12 fully merited scholars together to try it anyway.

[FailureMidgard]

You said yourself that the time before the initial tick varies. You can't assume that you can land 10-12 Modus Veritas without the effect wearing off before the first tick, unless you assume the first tick happens at the latest possible moment.

There's no point in arguing over this, nobody will ever get 9-12 fully merited scholars together to try it anyway.

1-3 seconds is actually very very close to what it actually is, and it has a pretty normal distribution, from what I've seen.

With a bare minimum roll on the duration of the Helix (50 seconds...that ranges from 50 to 70), 10 MVs puts the duration down to 2.81 seconds. Like, I specifically used the most limiting # possible on duration, and there is a .2/2 second window, or 10% chance for it to -not- allow 10. In reality, I'd say there's a larger chance that you don't get all 10 MVs off before it ticks on an early tick 1, than the chance that you get all 10 off and don't get a tick. Worst case, you wipe once, wait 10 minutes, then try again. Chances are pretty good you can kill AV with this, unless there is a problem elsewhere (cap on dmg per tick, inability to land a helix for near 100 dmg, etc).

I think you got it backwards, we want an early tick, not late. With a 50 second helix, if the tick happens before 2.8 seconds, we are good. If the tick is too late (at exactly 3 sec), it falls off and doesn't tick. Random chance is actually very strongly on our side to get 10, maybe even 11 if we get a high roll on duration (but not worth risking with AV's HP).

[Ultimagi]

Ya, I meant soonest possible initial tick, not latest. Anyway, my whole point was that people keep thinking that Helix damage = base damage * 2^number of scholars. There is variance based on the number of ticks that actually happen during the duration before the helix wears off.

This method still has merit though, if you can do it once, spam some tier 1 nukes while wiping to eliminate regen, hold it for 10 minutes and repeat.