Obama, taking on unions, backs teacher merit pay

[Kirin]

Somewhat related, but not entirely...

Seems teacher Unions win out in D.C. anyways, as a provision in that 410 billion spending bill apparently kills the student voucher program in D.C. that lets people choose which school they can go to. Not sure on all the details about it, but found it interesting relating to this nontheless.

[Beckwin]

That's an interesting concept. Speaking from an insider's point of view to the school system where I grew up, there was definitely a difference between the administrators (Principal and VP) who were formerly teachers from that area and Principals/VPs who were brought straight to administration.

The school board, more often than not, is a dangerous entity because they are too far removed from the details of the schools they govern, and they are subject to "bottom line syndrome." But school boards decide administration, and when politics gets involved, people suffer.

I will say though, that there is somewhat of a proven track record from private schools to have a better quality of education. The fucktards are still fucktards, but you find a lot fewer of them in these schools because the school and/or the parents wil not continue that student's education if it's a waste of time and resources.

private schools have a "proven track record" because by and large, the parents who can afford to send their kids their are 2-parent families that can afford to spend time with their children, and thusly are more likely to be better educated themselves.

There is not one particular thing you can pin down that will absolutely and universally guarantee success in school for any and every child, which is why flexibility and custom-tailoring is of the highest importance. smaller class sizes, 1-on-1 opportunities, and flexible curriculum are the keys to achieving individual success. It's absolutely amazing when you can get 1-on-1 time with a "problem child" and see the kid transform into a diligent, curious learner who makes leaps-and-bounds progress compared to standard class time, and similarly there are kids who abosolutely shine in a classroom; not only doing well themselves but helping their peers as well.

[sephir]

Having a good teacher can be a significant ingredient for a students success, but from experience there are a lot of bad ones. I came from a pretty shitty elementary school where some teachers just made my life hell, and it took a good 1-2 years of high school to really shake that notion.
I remember my grade 8 teacher used to read to the class any bad responses you gave to a question, and if you solved the problem slightly different from her style she would make you stand up in the middle of class and yell at you for easily 30 minutes.

My high school was in a better off area and had teachers who for the most part wanted to be there and went the extra mile to help those that were behind. It really made a difference, and the school used to boast about its very low drop out rate (it was something like .8%), and the percentage that went on to Universities/Colleges (78%). This school definitely was the exception.

So when it comes to rewarding teachers who truly go the extra mile to make a students time that much better, I am all for it. As far as homeschooling goes, I guarantee you most people will not be able to afford it. And most families now have both parents working just to maintain their current lifestyle, so having one parent teach the child is pretty out of the question as most families would not be willing to drop that much of their disposable income, let alone their current standard of living.

[Acturus]

Having a good teacher can be a significant ingredient for a students success, but from experience there are a lot of bad ones. I came from a pretty shitty elementary school where some teachers just made my life hell, and it took a good 1-2 years of high school to really shake that notion.
I remember my grade 8 teacher used to read to the class any bad responses you gave to a question, and if you solved the problem slightly different from her style she would make you stand up in the middle of class and yell at you for easily 30 minutes.

Education is a volitile relationship between students/parents and teachers/administrators, the better one set is, the better the other set is allowed to become.

[Darus Grey]

As a teacher myself, the entire education system is flawed from start to finish.

I'm a fan of how they do it in Germany.

Education in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

School in America is nothing but a glorified babysitting service, where we keep teaching the same material year after year to the kids instead of focusing them in on a path where they can learn useful knowledge about one or several professions.

College also takes way too fucking long...average bachelors in the US takes 5 years, where in many countries it's 2-3.

In France you can start college and finish your PHD in 7 years! good fucking luck doing that in the US.

The way it works for us is that schools have a fiscal incentive to keep kids in school long after they should have left(because they keep getting federal and state tax dollars for keeping them around longer).

To me this is simply unacceptable.

[Acturus]

As a teacher myself, the entire education system is flawed from start to finish.

I'm a fan of how they do it in Germany.

Education in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Although Germany has had a history of a strong educational system, recent PISA student assessments demonstrated a weakness in certain subjects. In the test of 43 countries in the year 2000[4], Germany ranked 21st in reading and 20th in both mathematics and the natural sciences, prompting calls for reform.[5]

Is their system really that good if they ranked 21st out of 43 in this referenced evaluation?

[Blubbartron]

You're using a test from almost a decade ago. Our system has fallen depressingly low on the world scale in said decade.

[Darus Grey]

Is their system really that good if they ranked 21st out of 43 in this referenced evaluation?

Programme for International Student Assessment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2006, they moved up ranks in all of them. Notice, the US is not in the top 20 of...anything.

But just in general I like their system of weeding children out early and putting them on different paths.

And it's essentially the same system used by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_finland who is #1 in education. With the primary difference being the time difference in when the paths start.

[GRT]

i heard they are abolishing the SATs

[Kuya]

There are groups of homeschooling families that are coming together to give their kids not only social outlets as well as many other activities that mirror public school that are able to be done without the indoctrination that public school creates.

Sports teams for one and as long as you put your kid in other activities that don't need a public school to do they will be just as social as kids that went to shit ran public schools with their NEA.

I still think children will receive a better education either in home school or parochial schools.

You're the guy who mentioned religious schools as an alternative?

edit: yep, have you any idea how immensely selective you're being right now?

[Maxxthepenguin]

You're the guy who mentioned religious schools as an alternative?

edit: yep, have you any idea how immensely selective you're being right now?

Homeschooling is also something that only hardcore Christians, Catholics, and parents of kids with special needs do in America.

[Andarvi]

When everyone saying that kids receive a better education from homeschooling than they do in public schools are they assuming average public schools or all public schools? I know some public schools that are actually really good, but as i said before, are in wealthy areas and are well funded.

The problem I see with homeschooling, besides the obvious lack of social interaction, is that parents are not qualified teachers (well, unless they are teachers). Homeschooling a kid during elementary school, ok, I would hope they know most of that material, though would not be surprised if they didn't. However, late middle school and definitely high school would contain too much material for an unqualified person to teach a student. What about APs? What about even honors classes? How are these parents that very well may not even have a college degree, and if so, a bachelors or something they attained decades ago, going to be able to answer all the questions a student would have about the myriad of subjects they are supposed to take?

Anyone here been homeschooled or know a good amount about it? How exactly do you transition from that to college?

[Jaybar]

Once again, home schooling does not imply students are without a social connection with the outside world.

Their analysis concluded that, "where possible, children should be withheld from formal schooling until at least ages eight to ten."

Their reason was that children, "are not mature enough for formal school programs until their senses, coordination, neurological development and cognition are ready." They concluded that the outcome of forcing children into formal schooling is a sequence of "1) uncertainty as the child leaves the family nest early for a less secure environment, 2) puzzlement at the new pressures and restrictions of the classroom, 3) frustration because unready learning tools – senses, cognition, brain hemispheres, coordination – cannot handle the regimentation of formal lessons and the pressures they bring, 4) hyperactivity growing out of nerves and jitter, from frustration, 5) failure which quite naturally flows from the four experiences above, and 6) delinquency which is failure’s twin and apparently for the same reason.

Aside from academic performance, they think early formal schooling also destroys "positive sociability", encourages peer dependence, and discourages self worth, optimism, respect for parents, and trust in peers. They believe this situation is particularly acute for boys because of their delay in maturity. The Moore's cited a Smithsonian Report on the development of genius, indicating a requirement for "1) much time spent with warm, responsive parents and other adults, 2) very little time spent with peers, and 3) a great deal of free exploration under parental guidance."

John Taylor later found, using the Piers-Harris Children's Self-Concept Scale, "while half of the conventionally schooled children scored at or below the 50th percentile (in self-concept), only 10.3% of the home-schooling children did so." He further stated that "the self-concept of home-schooling children is significantly higher (and very much so statistically) than that of children attending the conventional school. This has implications in the areas of academic achievement and socialization, to mention only two. These areas have been found to parallel self-concept. Regarding socialization, Taylor's results would mean that very few home-schooling children are socially deprived. He claims that critics who speak out against home schooling on the basis of social deprivation are actually addressing an area which favors home schoolers.

In 2003, the National Home Education Research Institute conducted a survey of 7,300 U.S. adults who had been homeschooled (5,000 for more than seven years). Their findings included:

* Homeschool graduates are active and involved in their communities. 71% participate in an ongoing community service activity, like coaching a sports team, volunteering at a school, or working with a church or neighborhood association, compared with 37% of U.S. adults of similar ages from a traditional education background.

* Homeschool graduates are more involved in civic affairs and vote in much higher percentages than their peers. 76% of those surveyed between the ages of 18 and 24 voted within the last five years, compared with only 29% of the corresponding U.S. populace. The numbers are even greater in older age groups, with voting levels not falling below 95%, compared with a high of 53% for the corresponding U.S. populace.

* 58.9% report that they are "very happy" with life, compared with 27.6% for the general U.S. population. 73.2% find life "exciting", compared with 47.3%

-Better Late Than Early, Raymond S. Moore, Dorothy N. Moore, Seventh Printing, 1993
-Raymond S. Moore, Dorothy Moore. When Education Becomes Abuse: A Different Look at the Mental Health of Children
-Self-Concept in home-schooling children, John Wesley Taylor V, Ph.D., Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI
-HSLDA | Homeschooling Grows Up

Homeschooling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yea, long read, but if you are really uninformed, then you should check out the wiki link (I don't like linking Wiki, but they do have a large amount of information on this subject).

[Kuya]

Actually, i've been hearing that a lot lately too, that it's better for kids to start school at the age of 7 or 8 instead of 5. I recall reading some of this specifically when i was looking at the Finnish method of education.

Some quick google links:

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | Is five too soon to start school?

Q: At what age should children go to school? A: The LibDems say six | Sunday Herald, The | Find Articles at BNET

[Beckwin]

I agree that 4/5 is too young for formalized school. Kids "can't" and honestly shouldn't be sitting around trying to focus on one thing/person for hours at a time at that age. Play, discovery, and short academic repetitions are more appropriate, I think.

[Devek]

There is an entire class of children who do not even need teachers.

The biggest problem in America is that we force round pegs in to square holes.. it is so fucking boring listening to a teacher explain something you've already learned 10 times. Let us do our own thing and use the teachers for the stupid kids who need them.

EDIT: Actually, just get rid of school. Write a book on how to use Google and give it to kids. If they can't handle that, send them off to the fields to do manual labor.

[Beckwin]

dogs and shotguns.

[Shuvo]

What a terrible idea. I can understand paying more based on seniority, but to judge a teacher by their students merits is just silly as their families/environment would greatly affect how well they do in school. Not to mention, it would be degrading for the teachers to put them on a treadmill like this.

If... any of the American TV shows I've seen are accurate........... the problem is not so much in the teacher's salary, as it is the culture itself inside the school. e.g. Romantisizing good athletes while looking down on the intelligent science/maths students. It doesn't really give people much incentive to learn.

[Olo401]

It's not judging a teacher on their students' merits.. it's judging them on their own ability to motivate students to learn. Students know who the good & bad teachers are and they respond to them in kind. I know I sure as hell did..

[Jaybar]

Clearly not enough people have seen "Stand and Deliver"