Killapocalypse!

[FNH]

That poll isn't biased at all.

point out the inaccuracies?

[Araelus]

That poll isn't biased at all.

I never said it wasn't biased. I said it was relevant to the argument I want to make that guns are tools, and tools are neutral objects that have no inherent goodness or badness besides what can be derived from their purpose as tools.

I can kill someone with a firearm. I can kill someone with my car. I can kill someone with my headphone cord. I can kill someone with my kitchen table. I think killing is wrong, but I do not think guns, cars, electric cords, or kitchen tables are bad.

The counterargument to what I am saying is along the lines of "guns are made with the purpose to kill, and since killing is bad, guns are bad." That poll asks what people think of guns and in turn, what purpose they attribute to firearms as a class of objects.

[zoobernut]

5 human heads discovered in ice chests in central Mexico - CNN.com

(CNN) -- Five human heads were found in ice chests on Tuesday under a ficus tree in the central Mexican state of Jalisco, police said.
Police in Jalisco, Mexico, discovered five heads beside a road to Guadalajara on Tuesday morning.

Police in Jalisco, Mexico, discovered five heads beside a road to Guadalajara on Tuesday morning.

The grisly find appeared to be the latest indication of drug cartels fighting for supremacy in battles that have left thousands dead.

Police in the municipality of Ixtlahuacan del Rio were informed of the discovery at 2 a.m., the prosecutor's office said in a written statement.

Each head was found in a separate ice chest beside a road leading to the city of Guadalajara, police said.

The tops of the ice chests were inscribed with messages, among them, one that threatened further violence.

"Like these, I am going to finish everyone," says one. "I'm going after you, 'Goyo.'"
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Another said, "Here we go, 'Goyo,' idiot."

The victims' eyes were taped shut and the heads had been severed only a few hours before they were discovered, the statement said.

The victims -- all of them men -- were estimated at 30 to 45 years of age.

Municipal police said one of the heads appeared to belong to someone known in the community.

Jalisco is near the state of Sinaloa, where the Sinaloa cartel is based.

This does not really relate to the OP but I thought it was strangely appropriate to the discussion and title of the thread.

[Dimmauk]

Those Mexicans are doing it wrong.

When I go to Mexico for Spring Break I usually put Beer in my Ice chest.

[Souj]

Glass in eye? Cuts to face? You have obviously never been in a wreck before.

I just dont picture glass shattering in a way that would seriously wound someone that was shot by a hand gun. Though I admit Ive never seen a car window shot before.

[Araelus]

I just dont picture glass shattering in a way that would seriously wound someone that was shot by a hand gun. Though I admit Ive never seen a car window shot before.

Bunch of police test an old Buick to see if it provides cover against gunfire: it doesn't.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/b...uickdoorr7.jpg

Notice again that the bullets are profoundly effected by being fired through the car door.

They are keyholing, fragmenting, and carrying lots of secondary projectiles (bullet jackets, glass, plastic, metal, etc) with them into the target.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/images/b...uickdoorh5.jpg

If someone tries to shoot you when you are in your car, drive away or over them, but do not try to hide inside the vehicle. If moving, the car is probably a more effective weapon than the gun, and the car will let you get away from danger.

[Tristam]

point out the inaccuracies?

All internet polls are self-selective to the audience that is likely to view the website. For instance, would a poll at BG that had two options - 1. I play MMOGs 2. I don't play MMOGs - be an accurate representation of the populace as a whole? Of course not.

but all that aside, you should take a look at the poll, it's actually pretty funny

The following is an actual question (and yes, those three options are the only ones allowed):

Police officers carry high-capacity handguns and store shotguns or submachine guns in patrol cars because..

1. the cops are evil and want to kill innocents.

2. police deparments cannot afford tanks.

3. such firearms are effective means of self-defense.

[zoobernut]

I would totally choose option 2 because when the police need tanks they have to call in the national guard or the army...

[Andarvi]

German kid ended up killing 16 people in total.

Teen gunman kills 16 in German shooting spree - CNN.com

[Suited Aces]

Police officers carry high-capacity handguns and store shotguns or submachine guns in patrol cars because..

1. the cops are evil and want to kill innocents.

2. police deparments cannot afford tanks.

3. such firearms are effective means of self-defense.

Change police officer to civilian and then the answer would obviously be one.

What should be the proper answer be? Since these options are "funny".

[Purrrfect]

Change police officer to civilian and then the answer would obviously be one.

What should be the proper answer be? Since these options are "funny".

Well played, well played indeed. Although, with that change, #2 is also a rather good possibility.

[Rammses]

The german guy had 18 guns in his home. His father was a target shooter...

Gun control is the only solution.

[Araelus]

The german guy had 18 guns in his home. His father was a target shooter...

Proper rearing so that your kid doesn't think killing people is acceptable is the only solution.


...

Police raided his parents' home later and found they had a sizable collection of guns, at least one of which was used in the killings, authorities said. German gun laws are fairly restrictive and require owners to control access to them.

Looks like either the father was already in violation of existing laws or the kid broke the laws about not touching his father's guns.

Now if you meant "enforcing existing laws better" then yes, I agree. These killings are a tragedy, and they always happen in violation of current laws.

[0ni0n]

It seems that a lot people advocate better enforcement of existing gun control laws. How would you go about doing that exactly?

We have the similar laws for violent video games, obscene movies, smokes, alcohols that rely heavily and solely on parents' discretion. We all know many of them don't work and minors often have access to them anyway because some parents are just unfit parents. By no means am I supporting a ban on everything from violent video games, obscene movies, alcohols and the like, because either those will only affect the minors who are consuming them or I don't think they have any persisting harms at all. But in the case of guns, we all know things can go horribly wrong.

I think we better acknowledge the need to toughen up the underlying gun control laws instead of the enforcement of these laws after so many school massiveness year after year.

[Dimmauk]

Just Ban Hand guns and Assault rifles.

Deputy: 'It's supposed to be me getting shot, not my family'

Geneva County Sheriff's Deputy Josh Myers quickly hung up the phone after he got his friend's message on Tuesday and started for the town of Samson, having no idea what had happened to his wife or his three children.

Then, another urgent message:

"We got notified on the radio that a trooper was chasing a suspect that had fired shots," Myers told reporters on Wednesday.

Instead of heading home, the deputy drove to Reliable Metal Products plant in the nearby town of Geneva, where the gunman had shot and killed himself after a bloody rampage in southern Alabama in which he killed 10 people -- including relatives and apparent strangers.

Myers had no idea that the man, whose body he saw at the plant, had shot and killed his wife and 1½-year-old daughter, Corinne Gracy, and shot and wounded his 3-month-old baby girl, Ella Kay.
Slaying victims

James Alford White, 55

Tracy Michelle Wise, 34

Dean James Wise, 15

Corrine Gracy Myers, 18 months

Andrea D. Myers, 31

Virginia E. White, 74

James Irvin Starling, 24

Sonja Smith, 43

Bruce Wilson Malloy, 51

Lisa White McLendon (identity not confirmed), 52

A family friend found the couple's 4-year-old son hiding in the Myers' home after the shooting.

"He was present when it happened," Myers said. "He knows something's wrong. He asked where mama was, and I had to tell him she was with Jesus. This is going to take a long time to work through it."

Andrea Myers, 31, was holding Ella Kay and talking with her neighbors on their porch across the street when the gunman -- identified by police as Michael McLendon -- opened fire. The neighbors turned out to be McLendon's relatives, although it was unclear why he targeted them.

He said one of his neighbors saved his wounded daughter's life. iReport.com: Officials investigate

"She ran up on the porch and got my baby girl and took her to safety," Myers said.

The 10 people McLendon killed before he shot himself to death included his mother, grandmother, other relatives and strangers.

Ella Kay, who was shot in the leg, will have surgery on Wednesday at a hospital in Pensacola, Florida, to remove the bullet or shrapnel that is near her femoral artery, Myers said.

A day after Tuesday's shootings, Myers stood in front of his home, across the street from the house where his family was killed, and spoke to reporters. Video Watch report on Alabama rampage »
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"It's supposed to be me out here getting shot, not my family," Myers said, speaking barely above a whisper. "I'd step out on the street any day and take a bullet for anybody in this community. Anybody. I take that risk when I go to work every day, I take that risk when I'm off.

"Nobody's family should have this done," he added, holding pictures of his wife and daughters.

[FNH]

Turns out the guy had police training, we need to restrict that better!

[Araelus]

It seems that a lot people advocate better enforcement of existing gun control laws. How would you go about doing that exactly?

We have the similar laws for violent video games, obscene movies, smokes, alcohols that rely heavily and solely on parents' discretion. We all know many of them don't work and minors often have access to them anyway because some parents are just unfit parents. By no means am I supporting a ban on everything from violent video games, obscene movies, alcohols and the like, because either those will only affect the minors who are consuming them or I don't think they have any persisting harms at all. But in the case of guns, we all know things can go horribly wrong.


I think we better acknowledge the need to toughen up the underlying gun control laws instead of the enforcement of these laws after so many school massiveness year after year.

I think your aim (less or no killings) is correct. I think that "toughening up laws" will do little to achieve that aim.

So long as people do not have what is known as the "Internal Point of View" towards whatever behavior the laws are trying to change then tougher laws or even outright bans will not work. That is, people need to consider [given action] wrong even if there was no law that said [given action] is wrong. It has been said that for every one person who does not murder because the law prohibits it, a thousand do not murder because they consider murder to be wrong.

Indeed, if the law is the only reason my next-door neighbor is not murdering people right now then I should be afraid for my life, because if the law changes, or he decides that it is acceptable for him to break the law, I could be murdered.

When some laws are violated, no-one cares. When other laws are violated it is a horrible tragedy.

There are laws against parking in certain places. There are laws against going into R-rated movies if you're under 17. There are laws against purchasing firearms for someone who cannot purchase them.

When the first two kinds of laws I mentioned are broken, does anyone really mind? It's a crime, but the parking tickets generate revenue and the movie thing is considered youthful indiscretion. When gun laws are violated, though, it usually involves a death. Then there are calls for stricter gun laws.

Why shouldn't I call for a more earnest prosecution of the criminals in gun-related crimes instead of more laws, or stricter laws, when criminals are by definition already breaking the law?

This is a fascinating issue for me, in part because I think crime is abhorrent, but also because I wonder what impact laws really have for good or for ill.

[6souls]

Alabama gunman Michael McLendon kept 'revenge list'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multime...35_501356a.jpg

The gunman who wiped out his family in a killing spree across southern Alabama kept a "revenge list" of people who had crossed him, authorities said today.

Investigators found the notes at the home of Michael McLendon, 28, who shot dead his mother, his grandmother, an uncle, a nephew and a cousin in a rampage that cost 10 lives before he shot himself in the mouth when cornered by police.

Gary McAliley, the local district attorney, said McLendon kept a list of those "who done him wrong".

The list included a Pilgrim's Pride plant which had recently laid off his mother and his own former employers - Kelley's Foods and Reliable metals.

McClendon worked briefly as a local police officer in the small town of Samson, where seven of the victims were shot, before flunking in police academy.

In 2003, he was temporarily hired as a police officer but he failed to complete the required training at the state police academy after less than two weeks.

McLendon had spent the last two years working at a local sausage factory, before quitting his job last week. Kelley Foods said that he was regarded as a “reliable team-leader” who was very quiet but well liked.

“I went to high school with him and thought he was a cool guy,” Cecil Knowles, who lives next door to some of the shooting victims, told the local Dothan Eagle newspaper. “I don’t know what tipped his lid.”

McLendon’s hour-long spree — during which he fired more than 200 rounds — baffled residents of the three affected Alabama towns where almost everyone knows everbody.

“I’ve known Michael all of my life. As a matter of fact, I coached him along with my two sons in T-ball and Little League,” ClayKing, the Mayor of Samson, told the Today show on NBC. “If you would have asked me two days ago if he was capable of this, I would have said certainly not.”

“He cleaned his family out,” Robert Preachers, the local coroner, said. “We don’t know what triggered it.”

The rampage began yesterday afternoon at the home McLendon shared with his mother, Lisa, 52, in Kinson. McLendon shot his mother execution-style — and even killed her four dogs — before covering her body with material on the couch and setting fire to it. She was found dead inside the burning house.

Armed with two assault rifles, a shotgun and a .38-calibre handgun, McLendon then headed for his grandmother’s house 12 miles away in Samson.

He shot his grandmother, Virginia White, 74; his uncle Alfred White, 55; his cousin Tracy Wise, 34; and his nephew Dean Wise, 15.

McLendon also killed the wife and 18-month-old daughter of a local police officer — Andrea Myers and Corinne —who werevisiting the house from their home near by. The officer’s baby daughter, Ella, was wounded by a bullet fragment but survived.

Joshua Myers, the police officer who lost his wife and child, was responding to the emergency when they were shot. “Igot a call to come home, and when I arrived, I found my wife and daughter,” he said.

McLendon then drove on, firing randomly at passers-by.

He killed James Starling, 24, who happened to be walking near his grandmother’s house. He also shot dead Sonya Lolley Smith, 23, at a petrol station; and Bruce Malloy, a customer at the Samson Pipe and Supply shop.

Driving on to Geneva, 12 miles away, McLendon met a police roadblack on Highway 52. An officer rammed McLendon’s Mitsubishi Eclipse, knocking him off the road. He responded with a volley of automatic fire that missed the officer by inches.

An exchange of bullets followed, in which the local police chief, Frankie Lindsey, was hit in the shoulder. He was saved from serious injury by his bulletproof vest.

McLendon ran into the Reliable Products metals plant, where he had worked until 2003. Inside, he took his own life.

“We believe he was trying to kill some folks there at Reliable Metal Products, but he got shot in the shoulder,” Gary McAliley, the Coffee County District Attorney, told the local paper.

“He was loaded [for] bear. He had two pistols in his pockets andtwo assault rifles. It’s our opinion he saw that it was over and put the pistol in his mouth and pulled the trigger.”

Alabama gunman Michael McLendon kept 'revenge list' - Times Online

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

I never said it wasn't biased. I said it was relevant to the argument I want to make that guns are tools, and tools are neutral objects that have no inherent goodness or badness besides what can be derived from their purpose as tools.

I can kill someone with a firearm. I can kill someone with my car. I can kill someone with my headphone cord. I can kill someone with my kitchen table. I think killing is wrong, but I do not think guns, cars, electric cords, or kitchen tables are bad.

The counterargument to what I am saying is along the lines of "guns are made with the purpose to kill, and since killing is bad, guns are bad." That poll asks what people think of guns and in turn, what purpose they attribute to firearms as a class of objects.

What is the purpose of the tool of a gun? To nail down floors? To screw in bookends? Mop the floor?

You pro-gun people have the most dumbshit hick analogies and arguments.

[Aerin]

Guns make it ridiculously easy to kill people. A person is way more likely to kill someone with a gun than say a knife for a multitude of reasons.

What's the real reason for people to have a gun now a days? Because everyone else has one? There's a nice little circle.