Killapocalypse!

[Furtwangler]

I'm sure this is the most cliche argument in the book on this but, I remember reading somewhere a while ago that a very large percent of gun crimes are committed with guns that are illegal, and by current law, the person doing it shouldn't even have had the gun in their possession. If guns are outlawed, most law abiding citizens that own guns currently and would never use them to harm people, would be without them and losing out on whatever they currently use them for, be it hunting, or just recreation. People that aren't supposed to get their hands on them now, will still get their hands on them just like they did before.

Edit:
According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

• a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
• a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
• family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/guns.htm

[Araelus]

What is the purpose of the tool of a gun? To nail down floors? To screw in bookends? Mop the floor?

You pro-gun people have the most dumbshit hick analogies and arguments.

Please let me respond sincerely:

I hope you will excuse me for not providing a more erudite resource for your perusal. Although I have already mentioned the argument you put forward regarding differing views about the purpose of firearms as either dangerous or neutral, my rhetoric was clearly unacceptable. While you may not agree with David B. Kopel either, I trust you will find his take on the matter far more rigorous than mine.

Guns make it ridiculously easy to kill people. A person is way more likely to kill someone with a gun than say a knife for a multitude of reasons.

What's the real reason for people to have a gun now a days? Because everyone else has one? There's a nice little circle.

You are correct that if attacked by a violent criminal, I would prefer to have a firearm rather than any less useful means of self-defense. And in additionI would prefer to have whatever means of self-defense are more useful than firearms, such as situational awareness, the knowledge that staying away from danger leads to avoiding danger, and a personality which invites neither belligerence nor victimization.

Since a firearm is a more practical tool for killing than a knife, I am sure a person with murderous intent who is searching for a means towards that end would prefer a gun to a blade. Indeed, these news stories show this is the case. I posit that someone who is intent on killing others will use whatever means are available to them, even if acquiring those means violates the law. Since they have made a decision to destroy human life, is it a surprise they no longer value human laws?

If that is not exactly what you meant, I might look forward to hearing what reasons a person who does not have murderous intent would be more inclined towards murder when they hold a gun in their hands as compared to when they hold a knife.

However, since my responses to previous queries were found wanting and uncouth, perhaps you would like to hear a Mr. Snyder's consideration of the matter. His account is somewhat dated, but certainly still addresses your ideas.

Thank you for your time and interest.

[FNH]

Guns make it ridiculously easy to kill people. A person is way more likely to kill someone with a gun than say a knife for a multitude of reasons.

What's the real reason for people to have a gun now a days? Because everyone else has one? There's a nice little circle.

I use mine to hunt, use it for target practice going to the range with friends, hobby of refurbing old guns or customizing new ones. Some folks collects, stamps, cars, movie memorabilia, others collect guns. Pedophiles use computers to get their rocks off not much talk about banning computers...

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

I'm sure this is the most cliche argument in the book on this but, I remember reading somewhere a while ago that a very large percent of gun crimes are committed with guns that are illegal, and by current law, the person doing it shouldn't even have had the gun in their possession. If guns are outlawed, most law abiding citizens that own guns currently and would never use them to harm people, would be without them and losing out on whatever they currently use them for, be it hunting, or just recreation. People that aren't supposed to get their hands on them now, will still get their hands on them just like they did before.

Edit:
According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

• a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
• a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
• family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

Bureau of Justice Statistics Firearms and Crime Statistics

An illegally obtained gun doesn't mean the gun itself was illegal, it means the owner of the gun was illegally using it. All of that 80% came from guns obtained from an originally legal source, so your argument is moot.

[Aerin]

I probably should have said besides hunting. Not going to try and say hunting should be banned too or anything like that.

With a knife people could tackle this guy down before he killed more, with a gun everyone is held hostage. Maybe we should just give everyone a gun at birth. Make it an even playing field that way.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Please let me respond sincerely:

I hope you will excuse me for not providing a more erudite resource for your perusal. Although I have already mentioned the argument you put forward regarding differing views about the purpose of firearms as either dangerous or neutral, my rhetoric was clearly unacceptable. While you may not agree with David B. Kopel either, I trust you will find his take on the matter far more rigorous than mine.

You're quoting and linking to an entirely libertarian biased website that also has articles refuting global warming. You posted an argument, not proof backing your claim that a gun is a tool. Even if in the same post you acknowledged the pushback you'd get you still stood by it. It's pure ignorance. Your bland attempt at marginalizing the concept of a gun makes you look like a hick after reading a few chapters of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. grats.


I understand the libertarian positions on "freedom," I don't need to read another pro-gun or pro-freedom argument. If the constitution was to be interpreted by the right person "arms" could be defined as nuclear weapons, would you still defend it? Turrurrists are trying to nucular weapons so we need them to protect ourselves, right?

Between neocons afraid of boogeymen around every corner and libertarian praising a practice of policy that has fallen apart in front of their eyes over and over again we're not far off from the sort of lunacy that would put a nuclear weapon in Joe the Plumbers hands so he can feel safe.


Bad libertarian/neocon/hick arguments are bad.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

I use mine to hunt, use it for target practice going to the range with friends, hobby of refurbing old guns or customizing new ones. Some folks collects, stamps, cars, movie memorabilia, others collect guns. Pedophiles use computers to get their rocks off not much talk about banning computers...

Watch out for those hollow point computers, they'll blow a childs head right off.

[Rhinox]

I got nothing to add here other then


I love you The Finesse.

[Devek]

I agree with his philosophy.

Killing yourself is pointless if you don't kill some people first. You're already going to die, so you might as well extract some revenge on the people who deserve it too. If you don't kill them, they are just going to laugh when they hear that you died so you need to prevent that.

I don't see why people get so bent out of shape over guns, the vast majority of people who are murdered deserve it. More people are killed by heart disease than guns, but I don't see the government banning big macs.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

More people are killed by heart disease than guns, but I don't see the government banning big macs.

If people were buying guns for the sole purpose of killing themselves and there was no way for them to harm another person, I'd be fine with guns. I smoked a little tonight so my memory is hazy, what year was it that that guy climbed a clock tower and plugged 23 students with Big Macs? Or was it 2 kids went into a school and killed a bunch of people with a bucket of KFC?

[FNH]

If people were buying guns for the sole purpose of killing themselves and there was no way for them to harm another person, I'd be fine with guns. I smoked a little tonight so my memory is hazy, what year was it that that guy climbed a clock tower and plugged 23 students with Big Macs? Or was it 2 kids went into a school and killed a bunch of people with a bucket of KFC?

reminds me of that time that person drove their car into that bicycle race, or drove into a store, or hit and runs, etc. etc.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

reminds me of that time that person drove their car into that bicycle race, or drove into a store, or hit and runs, etc. etc.

You got me, that's not even in the ballpark of walking into a location with an object made for the sole purpose of killing, and having the sole intent of killing, and committing the act of murder. It's on the same fucking base. It's on the same thread of the same base.

Those two scenarios are so related that we should also ban volcanoes, hurricanes, and earthquakes. As a matter of fact, death is an actual requisite of living, so we should ban life. amidoinitrite?

You're a retard with your semantic nonsense. I know you're intelligent enough to understand the difference between the two situations but you just want to be stubborn and not back down from a position you think is right regardless of the holes that are shot ( PUN! ) through your horrible arguments.

I get it, without a gun or knowledge of your gun you would feel otherwise powerless in this cruel, mean world. Whenever the asshole gets the girl, someone smarter than you outwits you, or someone stronger than you punks you you remind yourself "I don't need to work harder at being a better person or gain leverage in compromising situations, I just need to know I have a gun and can ruin your shit in a second."

Regardless if you act on that or not that's the mentality of the average American gun owner ( because paranoia is such a redeeming quality I won't mention that half ). Fuck my pretentious liberal ass for saying it, and fuck you for making that a reality.

[Devek]

If people were buying guns for the sole purpose of killing themselves and there was no way for them to harm another person, I'd be fine with guns. I smoked a little tonight so my memory is hazy, what year was it that that guy climbed a clock tower and plugged 23 students with Big Macs? Or was it 2 kids went into a school and killed a bunch of people with a bucket of KFC?

There are legitimate reasons to own weapons. Self defense and hunting.

Name one legitimate reason to eat big macs all day, sit around, and be a fatass. I would say that fat people cost tax payers and insurance companies more money than guns do. Why doesn't the government have the right to put people on diets?

Don't even get me started on smoking.

[FNH]

You got me, that's not even in the ballpark of walking into a location with an object made for the sole purpose of killing, and having the sole intent of killing, and committing the act of murder. It's on the same fucking base. It's on the same thread of the same base.

Those two scenarios are so related that we should also ban volcanoes, hurricanes, and earthquakes. As a matter of fact, death is an actual requisite of living, so we should ban life. amidoinitrite?

You're a retard with your semantic nonsense. I know you're intelligent enough to understand the difference between the two situations but you just want to be stubborn and not back down from a position you think is right regardless of the holes that are shot ( PUN! ) through your horrible arguments.

I get it, without a gun or knowledge of your gun you would feel otherwise powerless in this cruel, mean world. Whenever the asshole gets the girl, someone smarter than you outwits you, or someone stronger than you punks you you remind yourself "I don't need to work harder at being a better person or gain leverage in compromising situations, I just need to know I have a gun and can ruin your shit in a second."

Regardless if you act on that or not that's the mentality of the average American gun owner ( because paranoia is such a redeeming quality I won't mention that half ). Fuck my pretentious liberal ass for saying it, and fuck you for making that a reality.

You are soooo right about me. I can't just have a hobby it has to be for some malicious purpose because I'm always getting wronged by this cruel world. You do not know the average gun owner, since you aren't one stop going off your extremist troll views. I'm opposed to stronger regulations because that will make it that much harder for law abiding citizens. Also, people who know nothing about guns go for a complete ban on guns that aren't even the problem they just go for what looks evil to them. an 1895 Guide gun will fuck your shit up faster than the plastic guns the government goes after. Why am I even trying to argue with you, you're a hypocrite anyway.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

There are legitimate reasons to own weapons. Self defense and hunting.

Name one legitimate reason to eat big macs all day, sit around, and be a fatass. I would say that fat people cost tax payers and insurance companies more money than guns do. Why doesn't the government have the right to put people on diets?

Don't even get me started on smoking.

You're right, because anyone that's eaten more than one Big Mac in a day is a fatass and sits around on their ass all day. I love that part where you mention that on a forum for an MMO that requires you to play an average of 8 hours a day to make progress.

That aside, you do make a good point, which is why I favor proper preventative measures as part of a national health system. I think that the same warnings should be on the side of a Big Mac box that are on a box of cigarettes.

The whole reason we have an obesity epidemic is because the companies that made the shittiest and cheapest food were in bed with administrations and congressmen to help them not have to make the public aware of how processed and terrible the food is. We sold trans-fat to people who had heart problems in place of butter.

Why is there such a heavy pro-gun movement? Could it be the amount of money the gun manufacturers pour into the NRA and lobbying?

It's all tied together imo, which is where I disagree with Libertarian concepts of free market when they've done nothing but create monopolies and allow corporations to involve themselves in government.

But regardless, there's still a massive difference between telling someone what they can do to themselves and giving someone the opportunity to have an object that was made with the intent to harm another, self defense or no.

[Devek]

The reason there is such a heavy pro-gun movement is because they have a place. There is no place for big macs and cigarettes. You can't compare something that ONLY hurts people with something that SOMETIMES hurts people.

Want to know why no one gets robbed in the area that I live? Guns.

Want to know why Obama wasn't hit with a dirty bomb during the inauguration? Guns.
Insanity pleaded in Belfast killing - Bangor Daily News

The president of the united states wasn't saved by a fat person or the government. He was saved by a puny little woamn who would have otherwise been to weak to take down the stronger male(who made it a habit to beat her) had it not been for a handgun.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

The reason there is such a heavy pro-gun movement is because they have a place. There is no place for big macs and cigarettes. You can't compare something that ONLY hurts people with something that SOMETIMES hurts people.

Want to know why no one gets robbed in the area that I live? Guns.

Want to know why Obama wasn't hit with a dirty bomb during the inauguration? Guns.
Insanity pleaded in Belfast killing - Bangor Daily News

The president of the united states wasn't saved by a fat person or the government. He was saved by a person who would have otherwise been to weak to take down the stronger male attacker had it not been for a handgun.

Guns for citizens are a luxury item that makes you feel safe.

Justifiable homicide

A study of 743 gunshot deaths by Dr. Arthur Kellermann and Dr. Donald Reay published in The New England Journal of Medicine found that 84% of these homicides occurred during altercations in the home. Only 2 of the 743 gunshot deaths occurring in the home involved an intruder killed during an attempted entry, and only 9 of the deaths were determined by police/courts to be justified (FE Zimring, Firearms, violence, and public policy, Scientific American, vol. 265, 1991, p. 48). The evidence revealed in the Kellermann study is consistent with data reported by the FBI. In 1993, there were 24,526 people murdered, 13,980 with handguns, yet only 251 justifiable homicides by civilians using handguns. (FBI, Crime in the United States: Uniform Crime Reports 1994, 1995).

The reason there are no robberies in your area, is because there are no robbers.

Big Macs and Cigarettes are luxury items also. There is no place for all three, but we have them. As your comrade in arms FNH says, it's a hobby for him.

Yeah, I'm with you that a Jack Bauer saved the President, if it weren't for that one case surely the President would have been done for. lol @ 'dirty bomb'. Those are nothing more than a plot vehicle for a shitty TV movie. What fantasy world do you live in?

There was a place for muskets when this country had little to no infrastructure or a united military to defend it itself. This is no longer the case.

You almost caught me there when you tried to dance around the issue of 'what a person can do to themselves is different than what a person can do to another,' which you still haven't addressed. There may be no place for a Big Mac but I've never heard about little Johnny getting into daddy's office and blowing the left side of his face off with a Big Mac he found in the bottom drawer.

[Devek]

You almost caught me there when you tried to dance around the issue of 'what a person can do to themselves is different than what a person can do to another,' which you still haven't addressed. There may be no place for a Big Mac but I've never heard about little Johnny getting into daddy's office and blowing the left side of his face off with a Big Mac he found in the bottom drawer.

When you kill one person it is murder, when you kill a million it is just a statistic.

When people that live responsible lifestyles die because they could not afford good insurance and medical care that is just a statistic. Everything with a cost must be paid. When people die to secondhand smoke, statistics. When people get hit by drunk drivers, statistics.

Nothing has changed. Human nature is the same. There is a bigger need now for force multipliers than ever. Read http://tmh.floonet.net/articles/abombs.html

[TheShadyMan]

I'm sorry, I thought we were trying to stop people from shooting each other, not shit on their freedoms.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

I'm sorry, I thought we were trying to stop people from shooting each other, not shit on their freedoms.

Tell that to the people who lost their freedom to live and the families who lost their freedom to be happy on account of someones hobby. If enough of the population found it to be a justifiable freedom to stab people in the face would your argument about freedom remain the same?

A lot of atrocities over history are contributions of what the populace was made to consider "rational," like you and guns. I consider a citizen in this country needing a gun to be irrational.