RDM Group 2 Merits.

[Raineer]

5 Slow II
2 Dia III (Dia 3 is insane for melee zergs)
2 Phalanx II

Not sure on point #10 for me, probably Phalanx 2. To those who speak so highly for Para II, what is your gear like? Did you really cast Para I with as much MND as you could? I can't imagine Para II being much more effective if you were casting the first level spell with high MND.

I just can't argue for Para > Slow. If you give a tank the choice (only 1) between 5% more Slow and "un-defined more paralyzes", you would pick the Slow effect most every time. It's easier to get into a rhythm. The only time I could see Para being better is on a mob which is un-tankable in the first place and you have to rely on the Para procs in order to keep the tanks alive.

As for "if the tank wants Slow then someone else in the LS probably already has it"...uh? If RDM's in your linkshell already have P2/S2 and another with Phalanx2 then you should put all your merits in Dia3/Bio3 and cast it appropriately on every mob. I think the point of the thread is to determine which is most merit-worthy, not what fits best in your LS.

As for Bio3, that's up to whether or not you want to solo with it. Not really that useful over Dia for the Atk Down (maybe RDM/BLU soloing charby?), it's just a meritable DoT.

[Byrthnoth]

it's been said but it depends on what you do
personally, I did:
1 slow II
1 para II
5 Phalanx II
3 dia III

edit: pchan dear god

I did that too, but I was considering eventually switching it to:
2 Dia III
3 Slow II
5 Phalanx II

Dia III is useful in meleeburn zergs, and exceptionally useful on archaic machinery in Salvage. At 1.5 minutes (3 merits) it'll outlast anything that you're meleeburning except for a chariot. Still, with good melees I figured 1 minute would be enough too. Towards the end, I was Salvaging with Refresh+3 from gear/sanction, Refresh+3 from Refresh, +7 from G-horn Ballads, and I was getting Evoker's roll, so MP was hardly an issue.

I forget where I heard it, but I heard that with a strong enough MND build Paralyze is actually stronger and more accurate than level 1 Paralyze II. Anyway, I was going to test it out then possibly demerit it for another level of Slow II as my MND build got better.

PS. Oh yeah, I meritted as a RDM who wanted to salvage gud and do some other stuff gud too.

[Raineer]

I forget where I heard it, but I heard that with a strong enough MND build Paralyze is actually stronger and more accurate than level 1 Paralyze II. Anyway, I was going to test it out then possibly demerit it for another level of Slow II as my MND build got better.

I believe that to be true as well. Para2 may have more Magic Accuracy included, which is nice, but how many enfeeble-able mobs do you know which take more than 2-3 casts to land a max-MND paralyze? The fact that Slow II is a known/measurable/static benefit also makes it much more useful to me than Para II.

Ideally? You have Para2/Slow2/Blind2/Phalanx2/Dia3 all meritted in the same alliance, but that's unrealistic so you pick the most valuable ones.

My suggestion for anyone that wants to pick one of Para2 or Slow2 would be to put ONE merit in Slow2 and go solo something previously (somewhat) difficult to you as a RDM/NIN. Notice how awesome it is on your timers? Yeah... Para2 doesn't derive that much of a benefit because it's unpredictable. Missed attack rounds are gravy, but guaranteed slower attack rounds are better.

[Airenn]

5 Bio3
1 Para2
3 Slow2
1 Phalanx2

[Tsuko_Asura]

Can you beat those mobs you just mentioned with only DiaII?

Compared to Angon/Feint, the benefit of Dia III is negligible.

You shouldn't be giving anyone advice. Ever.

[Starr]

I'm 5/5 Phalanx2 and 5/5 Slow2 but if I could go back I would have done 5 Para2 and 5 Slow2

[Tubbers]

2 Slow II
3 Paralyze II
5 Phalanx II

Phalanx II is really nice for Ein/Salvage.

[Tulun]

I think tier 2 RDM is really all about what your gut tells you / what you use RDM for. There is no 'correct' answer.

Just weigh each spell base on your gut, possibly with other regular RDMs you play with, and what you do end up using it for.

Dia III - Awesome for melee zergs. Expensive on mp without a lot of merits. Can be very functional with just 2 merits.
Bio III - Crappy (dot ~ bio II of blm or drk at best...) *unless* you do a lot of solo kite stuff. Than it's good, since it's better than rdms bio II. So.. do you solo a lot?
Phalanx II - Great in a lot of situations. It needs to be heavily merited to get a good reduction, though (4 or 5 merits). SCH in party may negate this, but it's a spell for RDMs in tons of spots.
Para II - Due to para's random nature, this is really up to you. 1 point, since it is more powerful than para 1, is not a bad idea. More... well. Up to you.
Slow II - Great! Slow is always helpful, and reducing the mobs swing time will make things a lot easier (even with Elegy, anything to make a tank be able to focus more on spell spam, less time recasting shadows, etc is always good). Several points is never a bad idea.
Blind II - Garbage. Don't. It sucks. NIN Kurayami I believe is nearly as potent, and eva tanking is a rare situation anyway. Free blind will do...

So.. examine what you do, how you'd like to play, and go from there.
With the good spells in mind, you could do like...
2 Dia III
1 Para II
5 Phalanx
2 Slow

Seems like a good all rounder (people will agree / disagree). If you want to push a particular path of your RDM more heavily, adjust as needed.

As opposed to a solo kite build, which look like...

5/5 Bio III
5/5 Paralyze (max proc).

Etc... so.. pick what you want

[Shin Volcano]

Many diffrences in opinion...but to help clear.. I don't solo much as RDM because i'm a supporter.

If i need to solo i normally use SMN or SCH in some cases, i Mainly use rdm for Endgame events like salvage (rarely due to my mnk) and dynamis, most of the time just merit pts which group 2s mean nothing there so i won't really count merit pts.

Other then those it's comeplety random, i actually hardly use rdm because i have 5 other jobs i'd much rather use, SO bio 3 is out of the question, because it does me no good..ME being the key word. and tbh if Phalanx is an issue I just Go SCH to aoe in, i don't need rdm to phalanx whore my pt, i know it's great maxed, but it's not for me, and trust me, the less often i am asked to come rdm the happier i am,

I am just unsure what to go for as para and slow 2 because once i put merits into somthing that heavy i have a REALLY hard time going back so i don't want a route i'll regreat, i do like the slow 2 disccusion tho, paralyze is pretty random. is it possible to get a proc of paralyze more then 50%?

Oh and i may think of doing Endgame things like HNM sometime again in the future so be good for random times it's needed, but not so much i can't use anything else <.<

[Syntex]

5/5 Slow II
5/5 Para II

And not looking back...

Only thing I might consider is 4/5 para and 1/5 dia for zergs...

Blind II is useless, Phalanx II is pointless as we always have a SCH giving our tanks it, Bio III IMO is 4/5 or 5/5 or none at all.

Dia III for zergs but from what our LS can do, we dont use it and never have a problem.

Also for those doubting Para II's power I must say it shines in sky a TON, when zip ice beaks you(or whatever its called) and you get bound, I have gotten a ton of procs back to back when normal para just wouldn't proc and it can be a life saver.

Either way, I think Slow and para do more then the others for both personal use and HNM's more then the other 4 ever will but shit is situational.

[Aragon of Odin]

I truely don't believe Para 2 can have a 50% proc rate, but it would be hard to test because of it's randomness. I could see it have the same guidelines as Slow 2 though. In your situation I'd say stick 1 or 2 in Dia 3 and dedicate the rest to Slow 2 and Para 2.

[jimbobsonofgod]

BioIII 5
SlowII 5

I had phalanxII and I had DiaIII

Gave them both a day in court used them for awhile but found that these first 2 fit my play style more.

[pchan]

I believe that to be true as well. Para2 may have more Magic Accuracy included, which is nice, but how many enfeeble-able mobs do you know which take more than 2-3 casts to land a max-MND paralyze? The fact that Slow II is a known/measurable/static benefit also makes it much more useful to me than Para II.

Keyword. The fact that slow II is w/e doesn't make it better or worse, they are 2 spell upgrading the previous ones, you can tank anything with slow1 paralyze1. I'd say you can see paralyze as "occasionally double slow effect", so yeah it's cool.

[Septimus]

I just can't argue for Para > Slow. If you give a tank the choice (only 1) between 5% more Slow and "un-defined more paralyzes", you would pick the Slow effect most every time. It's easier to get into a rhythm. The only time I could see Para being better is on a mob which is un-tankable in the first place and you have to rely on the Para procs in order to keep the tanks alive.

Pretty much any mob that can be slowed can have elegy cast on it as well- that 5% more slow may be helpful, but it is a drop in the bucket compared to the 50% slow from elegy. (That they don't have to merit to get to full potency, this annoys the crap out of me.) Paralyze is random, but it truly shines on some mobs, like Proto-Ultima and Fafnir/Nidhogg. (Mobs that seem to have a low base MND to begin with, so your slow will be extra noticable as well.) It is also useful for Ouryu which is immune to Slow, and can proc on spells which makes it nice for any caster. I think that they work best in tandem.

For the record, I am 4 Slow II, 4 Paralyze II, and 2 Phalanx II. I generally am with the tanks when I am on RDM, so if by some miracle we ever got 15 merits for tier II, I would probably go 5 in all three of those spells. (Sorry Dia III, but if you are being used chances are it is something that I get to hit in my lovely purple body.)

[Ahlah]

Wrong. By your logic the reasonable choice is to cast Dia 1, and then why cast Dia at all? I can't really see any reason not to have at least 1 merit in Dia3. It's just too potentially useful where it is actually used.

Coordinating merits with a different RDM is another story, but for the single RDM on the go...

Meriting Dia III is like casting extra Dia I, there is no reason to waste group II merit on it. Name me a situation that your alliance absolutely must have the extra Dia I to pull of a meleezerg.

The logic behind not getting Dia III is based on the fact that Dia II is free and sufficient for 99% of the situation, plus the fact that there are more more useful group II RDM merit to work on.

Same thing can be said about phalanx II. I have been doing salvage for 2 years and have only used it no more than 10 times. It is not going to dramatically improve the outcome of salvage run considering it's only useful on 1f and cost significant amount of mp. Endgame HNM scene, Phalanx II is also a very situational spell. More so since most HNMs are tanked by blink tank. The only situation I can think of when Phalanx II actually makes a huge difference is Sarameya, again why bring blood tank with PLD when you can meleezerg it without 2hr.

[Byrthnoth]

Hitting this without a triple-proc requires Dia III.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5...rragedltx1.jpg

Would have been over 9k with a triple proc >.> To be fair though, Draken parties were generally four bards, a corsair, and him. He also always had Angon, Feint, Dia III, etc on his targets while eating a hellsteak or something.

[Ahlah]

and what do you think Barrage would have done to Dynamis Lord with Dia II on?

Not like your Dynamis Lord zerg will end in a horrible wipe without Dia III.

[Gergall]

Coordinate with the rest of your HNMLS. Instead of an alliance with 2-3 RDMs that each have 3/5 Slow II and 3/5 Para II and maybe a couple Dia III and Phalanx II...

How about a RDM with Slow and Dia maxed, another RDM with Para and Bio maxed, another RDM with Slow and Para maxed, etc etc.

If your objective is to rock at solo then just do whatever you think is best for solo and tell your shell to deal with it (if they even care).

[Byrthnoth]

We had ~5 kclubs on him so it would have been fine, but better is better, and Dia III is 50% more potent than Dia II. In situations where Dia is your only defense down source (like Salvage) it's possibly worth it to have a 50% more potent version of Dia on it.

I'm probably biased towards Dia III because we did so many zergs. If the fight wasn't under a minute long, it was either a ZNM, Tiamat, Ouryu, or Odin. Shit, we even zerged the end of Tiamat a few times. Zerging Tiamat is actually not something I recommend. The odds that he'll roar both of your tanks is far too high. Not that it particularly matters as long as you kill him in the zerg, but still.

[FailureMidgard]

and what do you think Barrage would have done to Dynamis Lord with Dia II on?

Not like your Dynamis Lord zerg will end in a horrible wipe without Dia III.

Slow1+Elegy is "enough" to kill pretty much anything also...Slow2 is amazing, it makes it even easier to tank things and keep shadows up, but sorry, just because you can kill something without the lvl 2 of a spell (which, you can kill everything you slow2 without a slow2) doesn't mean the lvl 2 version isn't that good.

Not to mention, to get Dia3 to a decent spot (2 pts), it's not like you're giving up slow2...worst case, you just drop 2 pts out of it down to 3/5, or drop 2 pts out of something else. Dia3 is well worth it if you want to optimize and be at the best you can be.

"Can do X without Y" is a terrible argument for Y, if Y still improves your efficiency/speed/safety/etc. Why do people care about a Duelist's Chapeau? Can do everything without it.