samurai subjob with soboro

[seiji]

Soboro, Mythril Shigeto Kabura
OH, PCC, Drone x2
KO, Seiryu's Kote, Behemot x2
Amemet +1, Bucaneer's Belt, Dusk Pants, Fuma Sune-ate

Still room for imporvement but with that I had decent result if I sidewinder at 150 TP. Even did a KSNM Behemot wiht that setup, got like 8/10 Sidewinder with sushi +1 food (at that time my ls didnt have much ranger).

feet: askar, hachiryu
neck: gorget? H torque ?

[Kongolo]

/rng.. ithink atleast u have +50 racc with racc food all time (Bream sushi maybe).
my setup is

soboro/mythril+1/shigeto/demon arrow
ohat/spectacles/vision earring/beater's earring
domaru (ws acc??)/Skote/behe ring/jalzahn's ring
Jeager mantle/Precise belt/myochin haidate+1 or dusk trousers (depens..)/hachiman sun-ate (enkidu's is better, Hachiryu is way better)

was hitting 95% of my sidewinders with ~100 tp

[Tsuko_Asura]

Not wanting to be rude but for god sake read the thread before posting :/

If we dont talk about the 10 % DA of war it's because this is a soboro thread, soboro mean DA = Shitz, only gets in your way (not my saying, test were done, DA traits arent doing good with multi hit weapon (BZ, SS, KC))
/rng wasnt destroyed, it's actually pretty cool still but you need to be have really good Range acc equip and need to know a bit how sidewinder works.
My setup was soemthing like taht :

Soboro, Mythril Shigeto Kabura
OH, PCC, Drone x2
KO, Seiryu's Kote, Behemot x2
Amemet +1, Bucaneer's Belt, Dusk Pants, Fuma Sune-ate

Still room for imporvement but with that I had decent result if I sidewinder at 150 TP. Even did a KSNM Behemot wiht that setup, got like 8/10 Sidewinder with sushi +1 food (at that time my ls didnt have much ranger).

Aren't you the same 'tard that quoted WSAcc cap information, and then went on about how you still need accuracy for them? For the love of god, stop referencing tests if you can't handle following up with the correct results that came about. Double Attack is a very slight boost to 'Occasionally Attacks 2-3 Times'; It is in no way a detriment to a Soboro.

And what the hell are you talking about, 'if you know how Sidewinder works'? Its an inaccurate ranged weapon skill with an extremely elevated fTP modifier. Guess what? You have 'three' native weapon skills with respectable fTP modifiers, ridiculously high pDIF advantages, that will - mathematically speaking - miss only ~4% of the time.

/Ranger has 'maybe' one or two uses at this point for Samurai, but neither of them have anything to do with meriting. If you've got that much of a hard on for Sidewinder, level Ranger, but for god's sake, stop giving out misinformation.

[fren.]

I've been gimping it up with /Thf till I get Hagun. I did /War until Yuki and stuck with it until Gekko, haven't seen a drastic difference between the two subs.

[FailureMidgard]

Aren't you the same 'tard that quoted WSAcc cap information, and then went on about how you still need accuracy for them? For the love of god, stop referencing tests if you can't handle following up with the correct results that came about. Double Attack is a very slight boost to 'Occasionally Attacks 2-3 Times'; It is in no way a detriment to a Soboro.

And what the hell are you talking about, 'if you know how Sidewinder works'? Its an inaccurate ranged weapon skill with an extremely elevated fTP modifier. Guess what? You have 'three' native weapon skills with respectable fTP modifiers, ridiculously high pDIF advantages, that will - mathematically speaking - miss only ~4% of the time.

/Ranger has 'maybe' one or two uses at this point for Samurai, but neither of them have anything to do with meriting. If you've got that much of a hard on for Sidewinder, level Ranger, but for god's sake, stop giving out misinformation.

Ridiculously high pDIF advantages are only good in "low" attack/buff situations (though meriting is usually one). The more Attack buffs you have (SV 2xMinuet, Dia3, Angon, maybe food), the worse GK WSes become. Which is why I like sam/rng on zergs...my sidewinders average higher than a DAed WS does when I have that many buffs/debuffs, and accuracy is hardly an issue with either Sushi, or more prefered, a SVed Prelude from one of the bards (can be slightly annoying, but seeing as Madrigal and March are both useless, the last bard can overwrite one of those with a Prelude, as long as you aren't getting Minuets last), Feint, and Sharpshot up for the duration of the fight.

I really do believe that no sub can compete with /rng for 2 "normal" 2hr zerg (speaking as a non-relic sam). Personally, I've been able to keep up with MKris DRKs (though KC still destroys me), and did over double of any other sam I've parsed against that was using GK.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Hence my closing paragraph.

[FailureMidgard]

Hence my closing paragraph.

I disagree with your 'maybe' part of it, or perhaps I read that wrong. Seems to imply you think it has no use except something like Widescan, but it does have some actual practical use.

[Tsuko_Asura]

The maybe was in regard to the fact that I had never actually seen anyone effectively /RNG for a 'zerg, while still being completely open to the fact that it may work just fine.

[Araelus]

In regards to the attack situation with Great Katana WS, data from http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/68018...testing-4.html indicates the following approximate attack values are required to cap out:

Spoiler: show

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1075/defstuffcopy.png

While ATT can be raised above 999, although it will not display as such, it's clear that on many HNM the only way to reach attack cap is by using Tachi: Gekko, and even then you need a very high attack value.

In terms of SAM/RNG, which remains an interest of mine - FailureMidgard, I'd very much like to see your Sidewinder/Barrage zerg equipment build, if you'd please post it ^^; or if it's elsewhere. I have a lot of /rng gear to begin with, but not sure where to go next.

[FailureMidgard]

It isn't much special, and I really am not even 100% sure what my accuracy is in said situations...I know I hit most all my sidewinders assuming nothing goes wrong. The only time it went poorly was a long time ago on my first try ever with it, I totally forgot to sharpshot, then I got Blinded by DL shortly after, and didn't do too well...I still was neck and neck with other SAM that time.

But for fun:

Vulcan's Staff (have it for SCH more as I don't use this often, but hey), Axe Grip
Shigeto Bow +1
Ohat/Myochin Kabuto+1 (Wyvern)
Light Gorget
Bushinomimi/Beater's Earring
Osode (I used a Domaru for most my parses, actually...only recently got an Osode)
Seiryu's
Rajas + Flame or Behemoth
Amemet+1
Warwolf Belt
Usukane Hizayoroi
Marine F Boots

Really, I'm unsure on STR vs Accuracy on ring/head...don't get enough chances to parse a zerg situation with a 2hred Prelude + Feint + Sharpshot. Also, I don't really have all the gear I'd like to have.

Also, are you really so proud of your little graph that you have to post it -everywhere-. It has absolutely no bearing on anything that has been said here.

[Araelus]

Thanks for the equipment tips.

And yes, I thought it had bearing on

Ridiculously high pDIF advantages are only good in "low" attack/buff situations (though meriting is usually one). The more Attack buffs you have (SV 2xMinuet, Dia3, Angon, maybe food), the worse GK WSes become.

but I guess I was mistaken. Spoiler tagged it for you.

[FailureMidgard]

Thanks for the equipment tips.

And yes, I thought it had bearing on

but I guess I was mistaken. Spoiler tagged it for you.

Does your chart include Dia3+Angoned DL and I missed it? Pretty sure you're attack capped with that + Food + SVed 2x Minuet, but I could be off.

[Edit: I'm well aware of all the posting on the attack stuff, have made many posts correcting people's gear based on it, and have a solid background in math as well (as it was my major), and I understand all the numbers...my original post is merely saying that once you hit the attack cap, which you -should- be hitting with the magnitude of buffs/debuffs in a DL zerg, GK is losing it's advantage because it gains nothing as you add more.]

[Araelus]

The chart is based on base extrapolated defense. A 90/256ths defense reduction plus attack buffs (considering max SV Minuet III and IV is +238 att) ensures that a Gekko Samurai is at the attack cap. The issue in my mind for a zerg is not that Y/G/K (ostensibly using a Hagun) gain nothing from att+ , since the SAM can still stack Strength once attack is capped. It came up in "Randomer Question" one time as to whether or not stats cap out at a certain value, and only one person said they did (at 160 or so). The issue is what the OP expects to do with his Soboro. Is the OP really going to use a Soboro for Gekko in a zerg situation?

The OP asked about what subjob to use in an exp setting - if he isn't using /rng, he's ostensibly using Gekko, since it has the best cRatio multiplier of the usual three WS. He might get away with this if he has a lot of STR plus capped attack, but I agree with you that it's silly compared to /RNG for a zerg. Can he get away with it against birds? He should go polearm (or /RNG) I suppose. Mamool meripo? Maybe I'm misreading this discussion.

And as you said, for campaign Soboro + /DNC is a lot of fun.

(I agree with you that meriting is a "low buff" situation, compared to other events, where the cRatio multiplier of Gekko shines. I just think it's still effective when attack is capped, so long as enough STR+ gear is available.)

[FailureMidgard]

The chart is based on base extrapolated defense. A 90/256ths defense reduction plus attack buffs (considering max SV Minuet III and IV is +238 att) ensures that a Gekko Samurai is at the attack cap. The issue in my mind for a zerg is not that Y/G/K (ostensibly using a Hagun) gain nothing from att+ , since the SAM can still stack Strength once attack is capped. It came up in "Randomer Question" one time as to whether or not stats cap out at a certain value, and only one person said they did (at 160 or so). The issue is what the OP expects to do with his Soboro. Is the OP really going to use a Soboro for Gekko in a zerg situation?

The OP asked about what subjob to use in an exp setting - if he isn't using /rng, he's ostensibly using Gekko, since it has the best cRatio multiplier of the usual three WS. He might get away with this if he has a lot of STR plus capped attack, but I agree with you that it's silly compared to /RNG for a zerg. Can he get away with it against birds? He should go polearm (or /RNG) I suppose. Mamool meripo? Maybe I'm misreading this discussion.

And as you said, for campaign Soboro + /DNC is a lot of fun.

(I agree with you that meriting is a "low buff" situation, compared to other events, where the cRatio multiplier of Gekko shines. I just think it's still effective when attack is capped, so long as enough STR+ gear is available.)

Oh yea, Gekko is still good when attack is capped, but /rng passes on zergs because it is so far past capped. The more buffs you stack that don't affect Gekko, the better other things become in relation (and when you start making up the low attack from a Samurai's low Bow skill, Sidewinder becomes very strong).

All that being said, Soboro is bad at 75, except for /dnc IMO. My whole /rng thing is based on standing a decent distance away from the mob, using a Vulcan's Staff for more stats, and firing off ~7-9 Sidewinders.

[Hakamaru]

Anyone care to comment on the claim that soboro out DDs a Hagun by 13% in merit parties?

Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Samurai

Just seems weird that no one recommends soboro for merits except for this guy. Bottom line of his argument is the following:

(pDIF cancel so ignored):
melee:
soboro= 1.9*(40+12)= 98.8 <-winner
hagun = 1.0*(75+12)= 87.0
ws:
soboro= 1.7*(40+12+102)*1.5625= 409.1 <-winner
hagun = 1.0*(75+16+102)*1.8750= 361.9

1.9x melee strikes comes from the expected value of soboro strikes per round given:

30% 1-strike
50% 2-strikes
20% 3-strikes

The 1.7x WS count comes from this theory-craft which accounts for soboro's automatic TP-waste:

Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Samurai

All the math and theory seems sound... I just don't buy that the model (i.e. swinging infinitely without the breaks between merit mobs) reflects an accurate comparison of the 2 weapons.

[FailureMidgard]

His biggest problem is he assumes 1.7x the WSes with Soboro, which is the mathematical truth IFF a robot is playing the Samurai, mobs never die, and the Hagun has 0% DA. Realistically? It's 1.5x at best. This 1 change alone boosts Hagun's WS dmg over Soboro's in his fucked up calculations.

Past that, he has 164 STR while WSing (seems way higher than I could ever hope to achieve with the best gear), has a perfect capped fSTR for Soboro and not for Hagun, ignores the fact that Hagun benefits from Double Attack, and ignores Meditate.

[Thunder]

Uh, you also don't always ws at 100% with soboro, you'd be getting triple attacks when you're at, say 84%tp and "wasting" attack rounds.

[Lithiani]

Uh, you also don't always ws at 100% with soboro, you'd be getting triple attacks when you're at, say 84%tp and "wasting" attack rounds.

The 1.7x WS count comes from this theory-craft which accounts for soboro's automatic TP-waste:

Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Samurai

His biggest problem is he assumes 1.7x the WSes with Soboro, which is the mathematical truth IFF a robot is playing the Samurai, mobs never die, and the Hagun has 0% DA. Realistically? It's 1.5x at best. This 1 change alone boosts Hagun's WS dmg over Soboro's in his fucked up calculations.

Past that, he has 164 STR while WSing (seems way higher than I could ever hope to achieve with the best gear), has a perfect capped fSTR for Soboro and not for Hagun, ignores the fact that Hagun benefits from Double Attack, and ignores Meditate.

And it fails to account for the level of TP you are feeding to the mob. This is a not inconsiderable factor on some of the more irritating merit mobs.

[Hakamaru]

His biggest problem is he assumes 1.7x the WSes with Soboro, which is the mathematical truth IFF a robot is playing the Samurai, mobs never die, and the Hagun has 0% DA. Realistically? It's 1.5x at best. This 1 change alone boosts Hagun's WS dmg over Soboro's in his fucked up calculations.

Past that, he has 164 STR while WSing (seems way higher than I could ever hope to achieve with the best gear), has a perfect capped fSTR for Soboro and not for Hagun, ignores the fact that Hagun benefits from Double Attack, and ignores Meditate.

Yeah, I think the ignoring DA (even while /DRG) as well as meditate not being accounted for are probably the big chunks from the theoretical side of things. I actually came up with the DA thing right after posting here, and I intend to redo the analysis with that taken into consideration.

The fSTR issue caught my eye, as you could see if you read the thread (although I wouldn't blame anyone for not). Turns out that it's not unreasonable for me to cap fSTR on birds as a Taru. It wouldn't be a large chunk out of the relative evaluation to put fSTR at 11 or 10 for differing equipment / race.

I don't think 164 STR is unreasonable for an elvaan with Hasso up. Debatable I suppose.

Mob TP isn't something I care to discuss. Really only interested in the damage potentials. Thanks for the ideas.

[FailureMidgard]

Yeah, I think the ignoring DA (even while /DRG) as well as meditate not being accounted for are probably the big chunks from the theoretical side of things. I actually came up with the DA thing right after posting here, and I intend to redo the analysis with that taken into consideration.

The fSTR issue caught my eye, as you could see if you read the thread (although I wouldn't blame anyone for not). Turns out that it's not unreasonable for me to cap fSTR on birds as a Taru. It wouldn't be a large chunk out of the relative evaluation to put fSTR at 11 or 10 for differing equipment / race.

I don't think 164 STR is unreasonable for an elvaan with Hasso up. Debatable I suppose.

Mob TP isn't something I care to discuss. Really only interested in the damage potentials. Thanks for the ideas.

Meh, I just pointed out the str 'cause the guy seems pretty clueless. I see 164 as the absolute highest STR possible (with like maat's cap, ifrit's bow, ambrosia, fulltime Hasso, etc). Realistically, meh.

In any case, like I said, the 1.7 thing, while theoretically true, is -nowhere- near true in practice (DA, mobs dying, Meditate, human error, etc)