Is it just or...

[Vyerz]

Is it just me or.. Do WoW gimps make FFXI scrubs look pro?
Also,
is WoW elitism not as satisfying as FFXI elitism?

Not that I'm bitching too much about WoW, the positives far outweigh the negatives Imo.
Just wanted to know if anyone else keeps asking themselves these two questions

Also, to make this a real thread: What is more important for a holy pally. Haste or Crit. I have 27% spell crit atm, and 300 haste rating (unbuffed). I need to get my casts off quicker to be honest, but I feel like no amount of extra gear haste will help me out very much aside from proc trinkets and talents.

[Raineer]

There are some pretty bad FFXI gimps, but my recollections from WoW were that undergeared = unable to compete... which isn't really the case in FF as long as you have your AF1 gear.

My god there were some bad players, not to mention how much quicker your reaction times have to be in WoW.

[aurik]

Pretty sure for holy paladin, crit is king due to abilities that proc on crits. But I'm not a holy paladin so :V take my advice with some deeprock salt.

Let's not make a comparison between FFXI and WoW because that's just a recipe for a flame war.

[Correction]

I don't think I can add up all the hours of my time wasted by bad WoW players to add up to even half the time that bad FFXI players consumed. But that's more a reflection on game design than player quality. There is no good measure considering the economies of scale at work here (11 million subs vs. half a million).

[Gulkeeva]

Is it just me or.. Do WoW gimps make FFXI scrubs look pro?
Also,
is WoW elitism not as satisfying as FFXI elitism?

Not that I'm bitching too much about WoW, the positives far outweigh the negatives Imo.
Just wanted to know if anyone else keeps asking themselves these two questions

wow = gear mostly dependent + some form of skill
ffxi = af1 + some brain functioning

basically its like... this in terms of gear... (overall dps, healing ability so and so)


ffxi is like.. what 1400 AF1
AF like 1800 hp...?
stand 1 spot provoke, utsumei/sentinel, maybe cure yourself once in awhile on 1 mob, sheild bash spells maybe to stun something for a sec

wow is like...
(average guess on warrior/paladin/death knight tank)
Greens lv 80 tank = 14,000~18,000hp
blues lv80 tank = 19,000~24,000hp
heroic epics lv80 tank = 23,000hp~29,000hp
raid level epics lv 80 tank = 32,000~36,000hp

get aggro on 4-5 mobs, use shield wall/last stand if needed, aoe taunt if things get out of control, shockwave if healer can't keep up, vigilance someone getting high on threat, shield bash spells, maybe stance dance fear, etc etc

Although druid tank is a bit "easy mode" compared to pally/warrior which require "uncrittable status" then workup other stuff unlike druid... theres alot to work on and gear.

I've played blu tank, pld tank (well 3+ years ago) and druid tank in wow... its definantly alot more challenging in wow to tank then in ffxi (which is normally just 1 thing) and even then when its that 1 thing... you have to do more then sit n mash your "provoke" soorta speaking like mentioned above.

Its not hard to be decent at ffxi (unless your a rdm, we all know those lazy ones we need to keep telling to cast refresh!) but its definantly a challenge in wow to do something decent.

Any idiot can mash swipe n hold aggro... but if you got a good dps, a good tank will hold that aggro and not die Or whatever other class you play.

[Vyerz]

Well I'm not gonna argue that there is a lot more action going on in WoW, but tanking WoW is pretty easy mode considering you actually have so many moves too keep hate, FFXI paladins would go nuts if they could hold hate with a bunch of insta-cast abilities(I'm talking end game, Merit party tanks are like -> voke -> ??? -> profit).. but I agree, I shouldn't go into a MMO war here. Too many butt hurt people or differences in the games

[Plow]

Well I'm not gonna argue that there is a lot more action going on in WoW, but tanking WoW is pretty easy mode considering you actually have so many moves too keep hate, FFXI paladins would go nuts if they could hold hate with a bunch of insta-cast abilities(I'm talking end game, Merit party tanks are like -> voke -> ??? -> profit).. but I agree, I shouldn't go into a MMO war here. Too many butt hurt people or differences in the games

FFXI Paladins aren't guaranteed to get owned in the face if they cast anything in a major fight though.

[Gulkeeva]

FFXI Paladins aren't guaranteed to get owned in the face if they cast anything in a major fight though.

I'm sure AV has something to say about that!

[Guyverarmor]

I'm sure AV has something to say about that!

Fucking lol'ed at this too hard gg Gulkeeva

[Elesirdur]

I feel that WoW is much more forgiving because there are just so many damn abilities and spells for people to use, whereas FFXI's job abilities and such are much more limited but really demand a lot more of the player to be very precise.

Perhaps because WoW is just so easy to level in, you can pretty mindlessly stumble to 80 without ever having to learn anything about the game mechanics I think a lot of "casual" players are completely and utterly unprepared to play in a group and participate in instances.

FFXI's extremely rigid gear templates do have an advantage of defining very specific demands for how players should be set up, whereas WoW is much more free with gear (or at least this is my feeling just being in the early stages of WotLK raiding). Because WoW doesn't encourage the same kind of cookie-cutter setup as FFXI, standards are all over the place since there doesn't seem to be such a strict enforcement of what's acceptable.

I really felt that FFXI's end-game playerbase was more competent than WoW, but I think it's because FFXI has extremely specific job roles for classes, whereas WoW is much more free-wheeling.

[Correction]

I really felt that FFXI's end-game playerbase was more competent than WoW, but I think it's because FFXI has extremely specific job roles for classes, whereas WoW is much more free-wheeling.

What specific job roles are we talking about here? PLD and NIN do all the tanking, 3-4 classes get to DD, two classes get to heal and the other 10 cheerlead?

'Competency' here is a slippery term because honestly how competent you are in WoW has everything to do with the encounter design, which under ideal circumstances calls for different roles filled by one player at any given time. Take Sartharion. Even as a rogue I'm busy de-enraging fire elementals in between dealing heavy DPS and dodging environmental AOE (aka 'not dying'). Back in FFXI all my BLM got to do was Stun Tiamat. Oh right, and Viruna the tanks when Stun was down.

I feel more useful in WoW with what tools I have been learning to use from my time spent levelling 1-80. Primary roles remain primary roles (DPS, Tanking, Healing/status removal), regardless of what secondary tasks get tossed my way thanks to the boss's Horrible Abilities. Not so with That Other Game, where what I used from 1-75 turned out to be far, far too much for me to have to do for the gear-dropping mobs we managed to claim. There my competency was based entirely on whether or not I was able to properly time the casting of one spell every 45 seconds. And that's really about it. My purported 'primary role' was pretty damn useless. So much for feeling competent.

[Jodwahh]

I lol'd at That Other Game, feel like Harry Potter. The game the shall not be named has returned!

[Elesirdur]

Good points Correction; I think the issue with encounter design is a big factor, and certainly one I was thinking about but couldn't really articulate it well. I will say that WoW's endgame encounters are vastly more complex than that in FFXI (especially compared to just fighting Faf/Nidd or Tiamat), maybe that's why I feel like the "average" WoW player is kind of retarded.

I think what I was also driving at with FFXI is that it's a much more "hardcore" mmo, which requires stupid amounts of dedication where only the cream rises to the top. Unless you *really* want it, you're not going to bother getting to 75 in FFXI and take on the bigger challenges the games has to offer. However, WoW is so user-friendly nearly anyone can make their way to 80 and 5-man instances, given enough time. I guess I'm just being really elitist about it, but I suppose I'm still stuck in the old mmo tradition of only the extremely dedicated players actually being able to get to the end game content.

Lastly, I think it's also a perspective thing. I was a PLD tank in FFXI for 100% of my endgame experience, whereas in WoW I've been playing a Fury Warrior just whacking away as DPS. Now that I've been introduced to raiding I can see that some encounters are extremely harsh on the tanks and the healers. I guess about the most I've been challenged so far in an encounter is doing the Safety Dance or keeping my Sunder Armour stacked while interrupting spells and keeping up reasonable DPS. If I chose to see the game as a healer or tank, I would likely find WoW quite challenging, as I did FFXI.

[SamanosukeShiva]

having played FFXI myself, playing WoW makes it look sooooo much easier.
for example crafting if FFXI compared to WoW is very lolworthy in term of difficulty, money just come like rain once you get lv450 crafting in WoW, on the other hand FFXI crafting even if you have crafting at 100 you'd still need to do GP and shit, and you'll have a chance at making money assuming it didnt blow up in your face. the only drawback is money means almost nothing in WoW, since the only major thing you'll do with money is with either Mount or Repair or Gearing Twink.

[FailureMidgard]

FFXI's extremely rigid gear templates do have an advantage of defining very specific demands for how players should be set up, whereas WoW is much more free with gear (or at least this is my feeling just being in the early stages of WotLK raiding). Because WoW doesn't encourage the same kind of cookie-cutter setup as FFXI, standards are all over the place since there doesn't seem to be such a strict enforcement of what's acceptable.

Uhh no, the difference is when WoW makes a set for X class, the stats on said item are at least -decent- for said class. You don't end up with lvl 70 JSE like Domaru that is just fucking terrible.

That being said, you still see the true idiots (hunter with str gems and a tank ring!) occasionally in WoW, but if they just grab their classes gear, they generally will be decently off. Also, if you want to truly maximize and be an elitist in WoW, you can...STR vs Crit for warriors, etc. Some people may find a "decent" gemming to actually be acceptable, where as a true elitist will see it as it is - slightly inferior (though largely irrelevant in the large picture).

As for which game is harder...who knows, I don't think it's possible to actually say that. Crafting in FFXI is harder...but also more useless. In WoW, if you don't have tradeskills, you are gimping yourself in combat...in FFXI, if you don't have tradeskills, well, it's just a way to make money (or lose it). WoW is more fast paced, quick reactions/etc. The concept exists in FFXI, but it is rare (stunning a few moves/etc). On the other hand, FFXI can be argued to be more about efficiency (in events such as salvage/etc) if you are going with a reasonable sized group.

And, I've never met a player that was actually good at FFXI that said "it's easy to be good in FFXI". Anyone that says that is mediocre/average at best, from my experience. It doesn't take a lot of skill to get shit done, it takes a bit to actually be truly good, however. Same thing applies to WoW. It takes very little to accomplish everything, it takes far more to be amazing. Just because 3000 DPS is what is required, doesn't mean you're good if you're doing 3000 DPS.

[Arcana]

after having done quite alot of what wow has to offer in both terms of tanking & healing, & comparing it to tanking & healing in FFXI, i would definitly say that WoW has the harder encounters for it, though XI has the harder grind to endgame because even the best groups only get 6-8k xp/ph in non merit parties.

FFXI lacks the quirks of the wow encounters* (KTs ice tombs etc.), and is fairly scripted for the most part to where the mob wont do anything but auto attack until it has 150+tp. * save AV & PW.

WoW Scrubs & XI Scrubs are the same kinds of people you would see in any MMO, and they are always terrible, they make terrible choices and play even worse.

I never really thought of myself as elitist in wow, until i looked at my friends tanking gear and said it was horrible, but then again he has just dinged 80, and hadnt run heroics yet, but in FFXI i would actually only do any sort of event or even meripo with geared people or people i knew who could play.

FFXI elitism is far more snobbish than WoW elitism mainly because of the jerking around for 12hrs waiting for king pops, then the slim chance of claiming and then killing & the items dropping.

currently there shouldnt really be any form of elite snobbery in WoW, mainly because the current raid content isnt that hard, and all you need is people who listen or play mage/druid/hunter/lock, tank or healer. as someone said 3k dps is all thats required per dps class to meet the gear check in current raid content

[Tomino]

The tactic approach to bosses/HNMs is quite different between the two.

WoW has bosses with a "timed" pattern of skill and other obstacles (lava, flames, ice blocks) that reminds me a lot of action games. You basically need to learn the moves and be quick enough to avoid getting stomped or whatever.

FFXI has HNMs with a list of abilities : aside 2hr-ing at 20% hp, there is nothing really that scripted as you can get 10 tp moves in a row if you are doing it wrong, or be fulminated 2:00 or 3:00 minutes after the start of the fight.

[Okan]

there is nothing really that scripted as you can get 10 tp moves in a row if you are doing it right

Sort of fixed. Also this doesn't mean you'll die, but you'll feel it.

One huge difference is that a mistake in some WoW raids can be the end of the entire fight whereas in FFXI, you can generally recover. This is mostly due to most bosses being outside and you can throw "endless" amounts of people at it. Say a tank in WoW dies, that fight is over with virtually zero chance at recovering. In FFXI, you just drop the dead tank, replace him, give him a minute or two to build up his hate, continue fighting. Raise dead tank, he runs off to heal up and wait off weakened... Rinse and repeat.

Also, you can't really keep raising dead people at bosses in WoW so strategy is far more important than numbers. Sure, they have some abilities on longer cooldowns to allow for a few depending on which classes you bring to the fight, but it's not enough to keep a fight going forever. Nor can you "rest" your mana back since you need to consume certain items (Water) which can only be done out of combat. Yes, there are mana potions, but they are on a minor cooldown period (3 minutes?) so they can't be spammed, which again makes speed more important over endurance.


I personally found WoW to be far more "elitist" than FFXI though, especially during TBC with the introduction of gems. Each and every class had a "cookie-cutter" build that preferred specific gear and gear progression -- anyone not using that gear was gimp. Their was tons of options and with most gear not limited by class, but by category (plate, chain, leather, cloth from heaviest to lightest), and you able to wear your level and lower, a lot of people made very crazy gear decisions based on item rarity (It's blue cloth to it's obviously better than my green plate) or misunderstanding of stats (Hunters stacking huge amounts of int for mana, AotV, and that talent and ignoring more important stats). Same can be said for FFXI though.

Edit: I wish I could find the VERY old thread, but at the launch of TBC, a hunter went BM while every hunter was MM/SV and he posted logs of his kills on Magtheridon (A tough boss at the time) and Gruul stating that properly played, BM was top DPS if played correctly. No one believed him, called him a noob, insulted his guild for a hunter being on top of damage meters... Well, he was right because towards the end of TBC, BM hunters (properly played) were putting out more DPS than any other class in the game.

[aurik]

Seeing as this basically became a comparison thread, I'm locking it.