Random Complaint Thread

[aurik]

I am over geared for heroic, and haven't started raids yet so can't give an accurate amount.

So basically in heroics, a pvp trinket is generally better than Mandala. In fact, any trinket with throughput or a useful click will be better than Mandala. If you aren't running out of MP, spirit is useless. And if you're running out of MP in heroics...well...stop doing heroics so badly.

ya that has basically zero to do with my argument. It's not an issue of spirit vs. int it's an issue between spirit and mastery vs. int and haste. Unless you can prove that the 280 int/haste is going to give me more healing than the proc 2400~ per person in a fight, then you have no arguement.

280 int is 280 spellpower, that's more healing on everything. That also tends to mean less need to cast inefficient heals to push up your overall HPS to match incoming damage. More haste also means your hots tick faster as well, delivering more HPS regardless of breakpoints.

Mastery is pretty unimpressive even after you've hit the renew haste breakpoint--of course, a lot of holy priests are now disenchanted with gearing around renew breakpoints because they don't raid-cast renew anyway. Refreshing renew via a duration-reset mechanic makes the breakpoint irrelevant.

[Ksandra]

So basically in heroics, a pvp trinket is generally better than Mandala. In fact, any trinket with throughput or a useful click will be better than Mandala. If you aren't running out of MP, spirit is useless. And if you're running out of MP in heroics...well...stop doing heroics so badly.

It's so hard to get this into your head but I'll try one more time. I am not getting the trinket for the spirit. I am getting it for the mastery. My only point is that spirit is not a useless stat so it doesn't make the trinket that bad. i.e vs. getting a trinket with str and mastery the str is completely pointless. I can reforge the spirit if I feel it, or I can replace gems or enchants to sp if I feel the trinket gives more than enough.

280 int is 280 spellpower, that's more healing on everything. That also tends to mean less need to cast inefficient heals to push up your overall HPS to match incoming damage.

but you'd have to calculate in a 6-8 min fight if that spell power will overcounter the proc by testing how often the proc hits.

More haste also means your hots tick faster as well,

comments like this show you don't know much about holy. we have only have 2 hots that get effected by haste. Renew and sanctuary. Renew for holy, as I already stated, are starting to be used less and less because it isn't too strong and is less mana efficient than a lot of our other spells. Sanctuary is also very weak, I dunno how much holy uses them in raids Before it sounded like only that but I'm reading more and more that people are switching to serenity because of boss mechanics it makes sanctuary semi-impractical.

[Dantrag]

Haste has also become one of the most useless stats overall for shaman

[aurik]

It's so hard to get this into your head but I'll try one more time. I am not getting the trinket for the spirit. I am getting it for the mastery. My only point is that spirit is not a useless stat so it doesn't make the trinket that bad. i.e vs. getting a trinket with str and mastery the str is completely pointless. I can reforge the spirit if I feel it, or I can replace gems or enchants to sp if I feel the trinket gives more than enough.

Mastery is clearly inferior to intellect. See the earlier posted charts (those indicate about a 40% point-for-point advantage to Intellect)

but you'd have to calculate in a 6-8 min fight if that spell power will overcounter the proc by testing how often the proc hits.

Mastery is inferior to intellect over every fight length. According to a recent post on EJ, the PPM is about 1, mathing out to 321 mastery average buff, but also remember that random-proc buffs are generally worse than constant buffs or click-buffs for healers.

comments like this show you don't know much about holy. we have only have 2 hots that get effected by haste. Renew and sanctuary. Renew for holy, as I already stated, are starting to be used less and less because it isn't too strong and is less mana efficient than a lot of our other spells. Sanctuary is also very weak, I dunno how much holy uses them in raids Before it sounded like only that but I'm reading more and more that people are switching to serenity because of boss mechanics it makes sanctuary semi-impractical.

You still do have 2 hots that are affected by haste, so haste is improving your HPS as long as you have them running. Haste is also making your GCD faster for your instant casts, and reducing cast time on non-instants so that you can fit the more efficient but slower heals into shorter periods, improving both your HPS and mobility (as well as dramatically improving your performance on semi-mobile fights, of which there are several this tier).

Trust me, I know enough about holy. It's imperative to to know how other healers work once raiding.

[Arvin]

Haste has also become one of the most useless stats overall for shaman

not overly useless. i'd say it has a 3rd or 4th priority. int>crit>spirit/haste>mastery

[Ksandra]

Mastery is clearly inferior to intellect. See the earlier posted charts (those indicate about a 40% point-for-point advantage to Intellect)



Mastery is inferior to intellect over every fight length. According to a recent post on EJ, the PPM is about 1, mathing out to 321 mastery average buff, but also remember that random-proc buffs are generally worse than constant buffs or click-buffs for healers.



You still do have 2 hots that are affected by haste, so haste is improving your HPS as long as you have them running. Haste is also making your GCD faster for your instant casts, and reducing cast time on non-instants so that you can fit the more efficient but slower heals into shorter periods, improving both your HPS and mobility (as well as dramatically improving your performance on semi-mobile fights, of which there are several this tier).

Trust me, I know enough about holy. It's imperative to to know how other healers work once raiding.

I never said haste was a bad stat but you are too tunnel-visioned you need a balance and at 12.5% you're at that balance pretty much for haste so you don't have to have more. If you do, great, but if you don't it's not bad either. My point is at the 12.5% you should be fine enough that you can put stuff into other things you'd rather have.

And there has been a lot of debate on haste vs. mastery so I could probably find just as many saying haste is worse.


And lol @ insisting it's better 'cause it helps two hots you barely use. You will never get it, and are too tunnel visioned to even make logical sense.

[aurik]

Stop being retarded: what I said was that haste helps you every time you make any action which causes a GCD or a cast bar, and ALSO increases the HPS of your hots. You always can use more haste until you get to ~5600, at which point you hit the cap. Just because it doesn't give you an extra breakpoint on raid-casted Renew doesn't mean it's diminishing--in fact, just the opposite: the value of haste is close to constant because raid-casting renew is not a great healing strategy in t11. Which means if it's worth getting 1 haste over 1 mastery when you have 0% haste, it's worth getting 1 haste over 1 mastery when you have 12.5% haste.

Even then, I'm comparing the mastery on Mandala against the +int. Intellect is the clear winner. Since you're not even close to running out of mana in heroics, the spirit on the trinket is worth exactly zero. At this point, the only things we haven't accounted for is the pretty purple border and the fact that you did 100-odd dailies to get it.

While you accuse me of tunnel vision, you don't even realize that you're the one looking at the world through rose-colored glasses. You invested a lot of time and effort getting that trinket, and because of that you're attributing it value beyond what the numbers on the item can ever justify. Get over it and start looking at the math.

[Ksandra]

Even then, I'm comparing the mastery on Mandala against the +int. Intellect is the clear winner. Since you're not even close to running out of mana in heroics, the spirit on the trinket is worth exactly zero. At this point, the only things we haven't accounted for is the pretty purple border and the fact that you did 100-odd dailies to get it.

You're retarded if you think this has anything to do with purple border. I am definitely not that kind of player. It would be insanely easy for me to replace spirit on gems/enchants to int to counter the spirit on the mandala. stop bringing up the spirit, I keep saying I'm not getting it for the spirit, but I can use it to put int elsewhere. Making it basically the same as it being an int trinket.

You're tunnel visioned because you harp on one thing without accounting for balance, I never ever said haste has diminishing returns. Basically, you keep arguing things I'm not arguing against and you think that somehow changes things.

And time and effort for getting the trinket? Those dailies take like maybe 30 minutes out of my day, in between queues for heroics. Heaven forbid I actually do something instead of sitting in sw picking my nose waiting for a pop.

[Correction]

I like that this thread is still somehow about trinket choice and tol barad dailies.

Wait, like's not the right word.

[aurik]

Well if you're dropping the spirit angle we're back to comparing:

+285 intellect plus a proc of haste
versus
+proc of mastery, average value of 321

Intellect is >40% better than mastery, point for point, so 285 int is worth the same as 400 mastery. Hence even without the proc of haste, the Witching Hourglass is better.

[aurik]

Also if you're gemming spirit for any other reason than to hit a socket bonus you're doing it terribly wrong. (Oh, metagem reasons too)

[Ksandra]

Well if you're dropping the spirit angle we're back to comparing:

+285 intellect plus a proc of haste
versus
+proc of mastery, average value of 321

no... because I would still have the ~285+ int from other slots. Think about it.

[aurik]

Think about what? Just because you have lots of int from other sources doesn't magically make 321 mastery better than 285 int in a trinket slot.

[aurik]

In general you never want a balance of stats. You want to stack your best stat as much as possible while having just enough mana regeneration that you don't cramp up on mana concerns.

[Ksandra]

Think about what? Just because you have lots of int from other sources doesn't magically make 321 mastery better than 285 int in a trinket slot.

.... if I add 285 int to other spots then I still have 285 extra int without the trinket so you are comparing strictly the haste vs. mastery. it's not that hard.

I like where my spirit is at atm, I don't need more nor do I want to sacrifice it if I don't have to. The trinket lets me put int where I didn't have any before.

[aurik]

Why not add 285 int to other spots and then add 285 more int in your trinket slot?

[aurik]

.... if I add 285 int to other spots then I still have 285 extra int without the trinket so you are comparing strictly the haste vs. mastery. it's not that hard.

Also this is so functionally stupid I gotta wonder if you're just trolling.

[Ksandra]

Why not add 285 int to other spots and then add 285 more int in your trinket slot?

I just said why

Also this is so functionally stupid I gotta wonder if you're just trolling.

ya adding and subtracting the same value is so hard.


[edit] I just want to point out too atm I'm sitting at 1840 spirit, really not that much. I have only 1 piece of purple gear so far, so I am compensating for that. You're treating as me looking at bis endgame shit and I am compensating for the fact I am not raiding yet, and won't be for a long time.

[aurik]

Don't ever tutor anything higher than about 6th grade math please.

285 int > 321 mastery.
285+X int > 321 mastery + X int

[aurik]

I'm not treating you like you're in BIS endgame gear, I'm treating you like you're someone who doesn't understand basic math because right now you are just totally failing to grasp it.

Also if you're not running out of mana you should be actively looking for a way to convert that spirit into something useful.