Random Complaint Thread

[Cephius]

I have no issues whatsoever with threat. The other paladin tank in my guild apparently does as one of the DPS wonders why he never has to hold back at the start of pulls with me but often has to with the other guy. We even ran a heroic the other night with him making sure to never slow down and keep going at it as best he could from the start of pulls (he wasn't stupid and pulling for me or anything though) and he never took threat off me.

My best conclusion for this issue is speed. I pull fast and do not wait between pulls (unless I see healer is oom) so this gives me vengeance from the previous pull when I make the next pull. That's a good bit of extra threat. My other tank sits there and stares at the next mob for a good 5-10s before he realizes as the tank he needs to be pulling.

This is all true, but:

1) You said yourself you were decked out compared to the group when you started running heroics with them, whereas I was right at the ilevel minimum.

2) I assume you learned dungeon pulls and boss fights in the beta or early on, wheras I pretty much went into things blind a few days after reactivating. I'd rather wait, analyze pats and size up the pull (and have a few threat issues as a result) the first time instead of charging in blind. I'm sure it was frustrating for you to sit there as a DPS wondering wtf I was waiting for, but I simply hadn't been there before.

3) It's not "realize I need to be pulling" its trying not to get the group killed. I take the first run to learn the pulls, the layout, the bosses, etc, if I'm slow I don't care. The next time through when I know what's coming, it's faster and I don't have issues. I thought this was pretty standard for new content.

4) When I was having trouble surviving some of the pulls I switched to seal of insight and was blowing holy power on WoG and not SotR, so obviously threat suffers.

So yes, an experienced tank who outgears the group will have no threat trouble, and a inexperienced tank who is under-geared compared to the group will. Shocking, really.

To address the point, this is just speculation but I think #4 is the big one. A paladin has a couple ways to assist the healer in keeping himself alive at the expense of threat, which I'm sure is employed a lot when said paladin is at the lower spectrum of gear needed to run heroics. Warriors and Bears really don't have a choice other than to build threat and hope the healer and cooldowns are enough to keep them alive. DKs I'm not really sure, don't they have some kind of built-in self healing?

Anyway, from my limited experience, assuming similar item levels and no survivability issues, Paladin holds threat just fine.

[Falaras]

This patch is absolutely crazy! Cheaper flasks, workable alchemist stones, enchant bracer: intellect. It even looks like blizzard is trying to make mages less mana dependent which is soooo good. We even got a bit of a buff in our mastery though I doubt its still worth ever using mastery.

[aurik]

I dislike the tremor totem change more than anything... its worthless now. For PvE I mean

You have a strange definition of worthless, tremor totem is now usable in reaction to fear/charm/sleep rather than praying for it to pulse before you are out of range. Yes, you can only use it once per minute, but the only current boss encounter where you will run against this limitation is Beauty. And those trash pulls in SFK, of course, but that's just trash. And every other healer just deals with the AoE fears just fine by enduring them.

[Katlan]

This patch is absolutely crazy! Cheaper flasks, workable alchemist stones, enchant bracer: intellect. It even looks like blizzard is trying to make mages less mana dependent which is soooo good. We even got a bit of a buff in our mastery though I doubt its still worth ever using mastery.

They give you enchant bracers +50int and nerf you -60 int enchant on your offhand. so its about the same when all said and done

[Eaglestrike]

This is all true, but:

1) You said yourself you were decked out compared to the group when you started running heroics with them, whereas I was right at the ilevel minimum.

2) I assume you learned dungeon pulls and boss fights in the beta or early on, wheras I pretty much went into things blind a few days after reactivating. I'd rather wait, analyze pats and size up the pull (and have a few threat issues as a result) the first time instead of charging in blind. I'm sure it was frustrating for you to sit there as a DPS wondering wtf I was waiting for, but I simply hadn't been there before.

3) It's not "realize I need to be pulling" its trying not to get the group killed. I take the first run to learn the pulls, the layout, the bosses, etc, if I'm slow I don't care. The next time through when I know what's coming, it's faster and I don't have issues. I thought this was pretty standard for new content.

4) When I was having trouble surviving some of the pulls I switched to seal of insight and was blowing holy power on WoG and not SotR, so obviously threat suffers.

So yes, an experienced tank who outgears the group will have no threat trouble, and a inexperienced tank who is under-geared compared to the group will. Shocking, really.

To address the point, this is just speculation but I think #4 is the big one. A paladin has a couple ways to assist the healer in keeping himself alive at the expense of threat, which I'm sure is employed a lot when said paladin is at the lower spectrum of gear needed to run heroics. Warriors and Bears really don't have a choice other than to build threat and hope the healer and cooldowns are enough to keep them alive. DKs I'm not really sure, don't they have some kind of built-in self healing?

Anyway, from my limited experience, assuming similar item levels and no survivability issues, Paladin holds threat just fine.

1) I doubt this is a big issue currently. And you're still pulling slow. I hate using soul swap at the end of one trash pull to have it fall off before the next pull comes. It's a 20 second window and that drops off so damn often with how you pull most places.

2) I did one BRC in beta. I did other dungeons while leveling up, as did you from what I saw, and that's where I learned the pulls. Last night was our 2nd time in SFK, and you still pulled slow fairly often.

3) This is pretty standard, but you haven't sped up yet =P

4) Seal of Insight does almost nothing in an AOE pull. If you're having serious issues surviving, ask for CC, I can CC for you since I'm always there on my warlock. Our shaman can hex. It's not an ideal CC group, but we're more than capable of it. If you're taking the time to mark I'll have a better understanding of why you're not pulling as well. I have also explained why you focus certain targets before and done some marking for you and you've forgotten what those things are (I skull the earthshapers in Grim Batol because they cast a -75% damage taken buff on whoever else you focus, so kill them before they do that, as one example)

However, I will note that my irritability about your pulling is compounded by my dislike of my warlock, I'm not enjoying it as much as I have in the past. I want to be tanking, but currently we run 1-2 guild heroics with me on my warlock and then no one is around and I have to pug for the toon I want to play. But I also need the gear/chaos orbs on the warlock and only one daily + rep for my main. But being annoyed by all that increases how annoyed I am by your pulling.

For what other tanks do for survival:

Warriors can shockwave any trash pack for essentially 3s of no damage taken and shield block is a 30s cooldown so you can weave in shockwave -> shield block -> couple seconds -> Shockwave and basically have reduced damage at all times.
Bears have demo roar on everything and -20% attack speed on two targets (iirc) so they'll be taking less damage since paladins only have -20% attack speed and -10% phys damage done on one target unless they constantly tab.
DK's have a 10% of max health heal (possibly more, my latest DK doesn't have full improved DS yet) they can use every 5s or something like that. Along with rune tap for another 10% every 30s (and gets refreshed at low hp)

I do believe paladins are the strongest at self-healing mostly because of the flexibility, but DK's can compete, which is better depends on circumstance.

[Falaras]

They give you enchant bracers +50int and nerf you -60 int enchant on your offhand. so its about the same when all said and done

Well there is reason behind this that I like. Leatherworking was an OP profession because there was no INT to bracers and leatherworking gave INT to bracers. On the other hand +100 INT to offhand is just retarded anyways, I did some math the other day that put Vicious Gladiators Spellblade/Justice Offhand on par with Staff of Thane from Archeology. That shouldn't happen, a 359 Resil Weapon + 346 Blue offhand beating a 359 staff. The nerf to INT to offhand is a nerf, but it's definitely warranted.

[aurik]

^ agreed. 100int offhand made any 2h spellpower weapon dumb.

[Tajin]

SV nerfs and no bm/ mm buffs am sad panda. I swear that blizz fucks up with deterrence every other patch and they just go around from evads - parries- miss, oh wait that's broken lets go back to parry and so on (not that I care much since i dont pvp).

Master's call CD reduced is nice.

[Falisa]

You have a strange definition of worthless, tremor totem is now usable in reaction to fear/charm/sleep rather than praying for it to pulse before you are out of range. Yes, you can only use it once per minute, but the only current boss encounter where you will run against this limitation is Beauty. And those trash pulls in SFK, of course, but that's just trash. And every other healer just deals with the AoE fears just fine by enduring them.

Please read the range of tremor totem before you try talking like a smartass (but wait, every single post of yours is that). One of the great factors of shaman was the fact they could use tremor totem in a situation where a monster used a fear. Do I give a shit what other healers have had to endure through? Not really. Its just something shaman has had for a long time, and it was a nice thing to have. Now its next to worthless, except for yourself or anyone that happens to standing almost on top of you.

[Cephius]

Stuff

See, when you explain yourself it helps a lot more than just saying "hurry up you're bad"

[aurik]

Please read the range of tremor totem before you try talking like a smartass (but wait, every single post of yours is that). One of the great factors of shaman was the fact they could use tremor totem in a situation where a monster used a fear. Do I give a shit what other healers have had to endure through? Not really. Its just something shaman has had for a long time, and it was a nice thing to have. Now its next to worthless, except for yourself or anyone that happens to standing almost on top of you.

Shaman can still use tremor totem when monsters use fear, but now you can use a real earth totem in the meantime instead of giving up strength of earth for the entire fight to cancel a few fears. Not only that, the pulse is immediate instead of potentially up to 5 seconds later. Now you essentially have a Will of the Forsaken that also hits people within 10 yards.

Also grats on it being actually useful for 1 boss and 1 type of trash in the entire expansion so far, definitely makes it a worthy cause to cry over. Since they're also thinking of removing fear immunity on berserk they are clearly planning on making raid-wide fears a big part of PvE going forward.

[Saxon]

On the topic of Shaman changes:
http://worldoflogs.com/rankings/play...g_Descent/hps/
-_-
CH change is nice though, but now the other healers want me to stack more spi :<

[Saxon]

Please read the range of tremor totem before you try talking like a smartass (but wait, every single post of yours is that). One of the great factors of shaman was the fact they could use tremor totem in a situation where a monster used a fear. Do I give a shit what other healers have had to endure through? Not really. Its just something shaman has had for a long time, and it was a nice thing to have. Now its next to worthless, except for yourself or anyone that happens to standing almost on top of you.

Also, it's really not that bad, you can still dispel people that need it most or get ranged to hug the totem (didn't see if duration was lowered though). But from what I've seen since 4.0 patches, that Blizzard really hates shaman totems, I'm surprised that Mana tide is still in the game.

[aurik]

Duration is 6 seconds, so it's good for one WotF-ga every minute.

[Arvin]

Seriously if I have to reevaluate what I'm going to fucking use as BiS and my trinkets and base it off spirit just so i provide more utility I'm going to be pissed

[Saxon]

Seriously if I have to reevaluate what I'm going to fucking use as BiS and my trinkets and base it off spirit just so i provide more utility I'm going to be pissed

The trinket effects don't affect the manatide though, which kinda sucks and why I was using manatide earlier with both trinket + heartsong proc just to say goodbye.
Edit: "exclusive to short-term Spirit buffs affecting the shaman when the totem is dropped." Does that mean it includes trinket/enchant procs or not?

Also, the 6s duration sucks, but I guess it's a lot more balanced for pvp and the 2 mobs in pve that uses fear so you really can't complain in that aspect.

[Ksandra]

Well there is reason behind this that I like. Leatherworking was an OP profession because there was no INT to bracers and leatherworking gave INT to bracers. On the other hand +100 INT to offhand is just retarded anyways, I did some math the other day that put Vicious Gladiators Spellblade/Justice Offhand on par with Staff of Thane from Archeology. That shouldn't happen, a 359 Resil Weapon + 346 Blue offhand beating a 359 staff. The nerf to INT to offhand is a nerf, but it's definitely warranted.

agree 100%, but I'm still sadface as I probably disenchanted staffs that I could have used. XD

also lol @ surv nerf

[Falisa]

Think I overrreacted to Auriks post but I'm so sick and tired of reading what he writes. It gets very tiring.

I think I'm also frustrated at the fact that more and more of the shaman totems effectiveness are being reduced. if theres a paladin or warrior/dk/hunter with a cat, I have 0 useful earth totems to use on ele/resto. I also have no use for fire totem on resto anymore due to the fact that nearly every spell caster class has a spell power+ ability, unless i want to constantly throw down a searing totem throughout fights.

[Saxon]

Think I overrreacted to Auriks post but I'm so sick and tired of reading what he writes. It gets very tiring.

I think I'm also frustrated at the fact that more and more of the shaman totems effectiveness are being reduced. if theres a paladin or warrior/dk/hunter with a cat, I have 0 useful earth totems to use on ele/resto. I also have no use for fire totem on resto anymore due to the fact that nearly every spell caster class has a spell power+ ability, unless i want to constantly throw down a searing totem throughout fights.

Same with wind totem. (Frost DK/Enh Shaman + S.priest/Boomkin)
Give it a few months and the only totem we'll ever use will be healing stream.

It's kind of sad really, the whole reason I lvled Shaman was the buff totems appealed to me. But now we are just a class with a wide variety of buffs for poorly setup raids/random 5mans.
I got so pissed on Cho'gall I just made our pala tank use Retri Aura, in which she changed back to after 2 fights because "I don't trust your totem", just so that I would have an earth totem to use.

[Katlan]

wtf at them nerfing guild xp AGAIN. my guild isnt small, its not large either.. we usually easily cap guild xp before 7pm PST from 2-3 guild heroics and ppl doing dailies. And today we are barely even 4k/6k. wtf blizzard.. so we also then go do a few guild achievements to cap guild xp because those are a lot of xp... but blizz nerfed those also and its like 100xp per achievement. its so retarded... guild xp is no longer even remotely small guild friendly