Random Complaint Thread

[Kaylia]

They have the option to extend raid lockout. People don't use it that much though because most people would actually prefer to kill a boss for the 13th time if there's a chance at purples than not kill it. I'm sorry, but I think your entire idea here is wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for content coming out at a correct pace - but everything you just said really has nothing to do with it. There is no single definition of the correct pace - it shouldn't be targeted at the first guild to drop shit, nor the last. It's not an exact science, it's just something Blizzard needs to get a feel for.

That has nothing to do with my point. Most people like progress, but hates getting stuck on a particular encounter. Extending your raid lockout won't make Heroic Lich king, Neferian or sinester more fun if it's the 6th weeks you spend wiping on it.

The point of adding new contents is to reshuffle the games when most guilds have reached their limits. My guild has a few more weeks in them , but it won't last forever. It's the same case for a ton of guilds, and you can't ignore that.


[edit]
If you don't get the drive to farm magmaws because you have done it many times, and you lost the drive to fight whatever encounter you're stuck on, Extending raid lockout isn't going to solve the issue.

[Arvin]

Erm i'm not bored with content; I said I've heard loads of times that sunwell and ulduar the solid raids, and everything else fall into the boring as fuck or ezmode category. I for one welcome the open to the public content (even if I cant down it due to me sucking or the other 9-24 monkeys sucking)

Pre-nerf Karazhan, Gruul, Magtheridon, SSC, TK and BT were also really fantastic. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, that expansion had great raid encounters but a lot of the player base started playing during WotLK or extremely late into TBC so they never got to experience it.

[Correction]

but a lot of the player base started playing during WotLK or extremely late into TBC so they never got to experience it.

The raid keying system was also out of control, locking a lot of otherwise perfectly qualified players out of t6 content.

[FailureMidgard]

Why extend a raid lockout when u can clear all normal modes (all 12) in 4 hrs? Ppl hardly extend raid IDa because shit they can alrdy kill dies fast and that's extra gear / shards from normal modes for a few hrs of effort.

Either you're bored of the normal mode or you aren't. I'm saying it's not a valid argument to say people are bored of killing these normal modes for the 18th time, when they have the option available to skip said shit and go straight to "new" stuff.

And like I've said before, the vast majority of ppl do not consider HMs = content. Ur still staring at the same boss. And even more of a reason why HMs do not = content is because it's the same ilv and next tier normal modes that are content. So it's gearing u up the same as new content, which is retarded imo. HMs are time killers, and even if 90% of the wow population hasn't cleared 75% of HMs... Who the fuck cares? They have alrdy seen all the normal mode content and want new boss mechanics & a new mob boss to stare at

Clearly the model makes it new or old content. That's why every dragon is not new content...really, some hardmodes are virtually the same with little to no relevant changes (Atramedes, Chimeron is pretty bland, etc). Other hardmodes really change the fight (Halfus HM is easy, but it's really nothing like normal...Omnotron changes the fight quite a bit, etc).

Futhetmore, that's great u consider HMs content and u think that gives blizz a reason to make this the slowest content xpac ever, but ur in the minority and a lot of ppl r leaving because shits boring as fuck right now

I'm actually in a casual-ish guild right now, their "main" raid group is 9/12 normal. My raid group joined their guild as a team up for guild perks/etc, and we're 4/12 heroic. They want to clear shit before the next patch on normal. You're quite obviously clueless if you think this is "the slowest content xpac ever", but I'll just assume you didn't play uhh, anything else...

Here you go though:

Vanilla:
Wow Release date : November 23, 2004
BWL : Release date (US) 12 July 2005
Time: 7.5 months

TBC:
January 16, 2007
BT: Release date (US) 22 May 2007
The world first kill was achieved by Nihilum of Magtheridon EU on May 25, 2007 . (Kaelthas)
Time: 4 months

Wrath:
November 13, 2008
Release date (US) April 14, 2009
Time: 5 months

Cata:
December 7, 2010
4 months @ April 7.
5 months @ May 7.

Has 13 bosses + 13 hardmodes.
MC+Ony was 11 bosses.
TBC Tier1 was ... I don't even know, BT/Hyjal came out and most guilds couldn't even attune for it. I guess we can call Kara 10man+Gruul T1? Most people couldn't attune to TK either...Kael wasn't killed until -after- BT was released. All in all, this was a pretty fail raid tier as far as pleasing the masses went.
Wrath Tier1 was Naxx redone and made a total joke (Pugs cleared it less than a month in...'cause it was all re-used BS...not even added mechanics, generally far far easier than it's level 60 counter part) with 2 extra fights, and essentially 1 hardmode.

Sorry, if half of 25man-categorized guilds have killed Halfus and 40% have killed Chim (meaning at least 40%, probably upwards of 60%) have killed Nef....

Then your source of data isn't very good.

Do you have a source at all? Or gonna say mine is bad just because you dislike the numbers? It's going off armory achievements, and defining a 25man guild as any guild with a single boss kill, I think. Is there some other criteria to define a 25man guild? Feel free to check it out:
http://www.wowtrack.org/encounters.lua

What's your point? Most people like progress, but hates getting stuck on a particular encounter. Extending your raid lockout won't make Heroic Lich king, Neferian or sinester more fun if it's the 6th weeks you spend on it.

I agree, but getting stuck on content for 6 weeks has nothing to do with how many times you killed LK on normal mode. It's like you people are pulling new reasons every second and changing what you're saying. People aren't getting stuck on Magmaw (which was the cited example) for 6 weeks. Apparently it's boring to do the same fight for the 12th time - simple solution, stop resetting your instance and just do new fights, you'll prob kill 1 a week NP. People don't do that though, 'cause that actually has NOTHING to do with the majority of people's complaints.

The point of adding new contents is to reshuffle the games when most guilds have reached their limits. My guild has a few more weeks in them , but it won't last forever. It's the same case for a ton of guilds, and you can't ignore that.

I agree with your logic of when to add new content, and I'm not sure when the right time to add it is now - but I agree that right now would be too soon. I have absolutely no clue exactly when the right time is, but as it is, guilds of all caliber (bar the ones that have cleared 13/13 heroic) are still making constant progress, as a whole, so I think it's premature to say that they are delaying it too long. If/when said guilds (again, across the entire spectrum) stop or slow progression, then yes, it's time for new content. As it stands now, I think Blizzard's timing looks pretty good...

[edit]
If you don't get the drive to farm magmaws because you have done it many times, and you lost the drive to fight whatever encounter you're stuck on, Extending raid lockout isn't going to solve the issue.

Yet, that isn't the original statement. In the end, the problem has nothing to do with # of Magmaw kills, it has to do with the fact you have no drive to progress. Aka, it has nothing to do with heroics being extra content, it has to do with the fact the person is bored of progression. Period. That can be on normal mode nef, on hardmode Al'akir, on hardmode Chimaeron, or on the 3rd pull of Hardmode Sinestra (or any other fight that is not a hardmode of a fight you've done 12 times). You're contradicting your entire starting point here, I'm sorry.

Heroics -are- added content (well, some/most are...some as I said earlier just don't have shit changing)...

[aurik]

All 3rd-party "kill trackers" are pretty unreliable this tier.

According to wowtrack, 2900 25-man guilds have cleared nef. But only 2100 25-man nef clears have been recorded. So the average number of times a 12/12 25-man has killed nef is less than 1. Also they are tracking 578 realms and conclude that there is 4500 25-man guilds. That's almost 8 25-man guilds per server on average. Seems a bit high if you ask me.

Just saying, your data source is pretty sketch.

Edit: also, there's a lot less drive for people to see Atramedes PLUS ONE when Atramedes is on farm and drops the same loot 13 ilvls lower than there would be to see a completely different boss. Sinestra (much like Algalon) is out of reach for the vast majority of guilds though, so once you're 12/12 normal, a lot of people feel there's not a whole lot of "new" content left when they're just re-learning the old bosses PLUS ONE.

[Lordender]

So i clicked on some of the loot from the 85 versions of ZG and ZA on MMO champions list and saw "cannot be disenchanted" on the tooltips, I really hope thats a troll or just not enabled on the PTR cause i'm going to be fucking pissed off if you can't DE that shit.

[Katlan]

The point of adding new contents is to reshuffle the games when most guilds have reached their limits. My guild has a few more weeks in them , but it won't last forever. It's the same case for a ton of guilds, and you can't ignore that.


[edit]
If you don't get the drive to farm magmaws because you have done it many times, and you lost the drive to fight whatever encounter you're stuck on, Extending raid lockout isn't going to solve the issue.

Sums up my thoughts perfectly. No company should release new content depending on how many ppl have fully / partially cleared content. It should be as fast as possible even if some guilds get left behind. Especially now since blizz releases 5 man content to help ppl progress. If your a baddie your a baddie and gear won't help that, if your guild is comprised of baddies then gear won't help you progress either.

But withholding content or making it's release cycle slower because ppl aren't clearing HM content when they have had that normal mode boss on farm for the past X weeks isn't smart imo. Its recycled content w/a new mechanic and heavier damage. Nothing else... It's not gonna make ppl enjoy killing a boss anymore if they are already bored of it in normal
Stuck on HMs when new tier normal Modes will be the exact same ilv, then give then new content

[Kaylia]

@FaillureMidgard

You have to keep in mind that gearing yourself for raid is easier than ever. In cataclysm, most guild were able to raid within the first 2 weeks or so. I'm not sure you could say the same about vanilla WoW or BC.

What does it mean? People start raiding earlier, and get bored of the content earlier.

I agree, but getting stuck on content for 6 weeks has nothing to do with how many times you killed LK on normal mode. It's like you people are pulling new reasons every second and changing what you're saying. People aren't getting stuck on Magmaw (which was the cited example) for 6 weeks. Apparently it's boring to do the same fight for the 12th time - simple solution, stop resetting your instance and just do new fights, you'll prob kill 1 a week NP. People don't do that though, 'cause that actually has NOTHING to do with the majority of people's complaints.

It doesnt freaking matter what boss I pick, it's always the same thing everywhere. You will hit a point where the encounter are too hard for your guild (ie: some people are not good enough), and the only choices are to farm contents you are almost done with (people hate that), or keep banging your head on the same boss (people also hate that). There is no way to win once you reach that point.

Try to convince people to continue a raid when many still need gears from at least one encounter before the boss you're stuck at? If you're stuck on Nef, you will be forced to hit 5 bosses every times, even if only one of them actually has loot. Some people want progress, other want gears, other want gears because it will makes progress easier...There is more than one type of person, and you have to please everyone at the same time.

but I agree that right now would be too soon.

I disagree. The content need to be now or very soon, not when guilds start breaking apart because they don't feel like waiting another 3 months. We are about to relive the same shit we did before ulduar, or when we were stuck on heroic ICC for too long.

Yet, that isn't the original statement. In the end, the problem has nothing to do with # of Magmaw kills, it has to do with the fact you have no drive to progress. Aka, it has nothing to do with heroics being extra content, it has to do with the fact the person is bored of progression. Period. That can be on normal mode nef, on hardmode Al'akir, on hardmode Chimaeron, or on the 3rd pull of Hardmode Sinestra (or any other fight that is not a hardmode of a fight you've done 12 times). You're contradicting your entire starting point here, I'm sorry.

You're being dense. The drive IS going to die when you reach that wall. Everybody love progression when they see the fruit of their effort, but if you're stuck for too long on the same encounter, people will get discouraged.

I made two points in my previous posts if it wasn't clear enough
-Farming will get old after you kill any boss too many time (ex: magmar 12 times)
-Progress will get old when you wipe too many time on the same fight. (ex: Nef, heroic LK, heroic w/e)

The only solution to both issue is new content.

[Katlan]

FaillureMidgard is 100% being dense in order to try and prove his point. That's why I stopped reading what he was saying. I actually think he may be a blizz CM in disguise since he is doing a great job of defending the super slow content cycle cata is presenting. reminds me of those XIV posters

[FailureMidgard]

All 3rd-party "kill trackers" are pretty unreliable this tier.

According to wowtrack, 2900 25-man guilds have cleared nef. But only 2100 25-man nef clears have been recorded. So the average number of times a 12/12 25-man has killed nef is less than 1. Also they are tracking 578 realms and conclude that there is 4500 25-man guilds. That's almost 8 25-man guilds per server on average. Seems a bit high if you ask me.

Just saying, your data source is pretty sketch.

Edit: also, there's a lot less drive for people to see Atramedes PLUS ONE when Atramedes is on farm and drops the same loot 13 ilvls lower than there would be to see a completely different boss. Sinestra (much like Algalon) is out of reach for the vast majority of guilds though, so once you're 12/12 normal, a lot of people feel there's not a whole lot of "new" content left when they're just re-learning the old bosses PLUS ONE.

I'm not gonna say its perfect, there's obvious some issues in it, but they are mainly in distinguishing 25 and 10player guilds, nothing more (the achievements on armory are the same, it's probably guessing based on # of players that got it or something, I dunno). Looking back over it, ya, the 40% is probably off, but no I don't think your 25man estimate is off (I dunno what server you're on, but that's an average, nothing more...my backwater shitty server has like 4 horde 25man guilds alone...). Even so, nearly 16% of total guilds (defined as raiding guilds, ignoring guilds with 0 raid kills) have downed Halfus HM, I think that # is very likely correct, even if the 50% isn't (though the 25man percentage is guaranteed to be higher than 10). It's not the 1% or whatever you stated either way.

All that aside, yea, a lot of content may be out of reach of people, but again, I'm not even a hardcore player anymore, I'm in a group that's struggling on our 5th hardmode, and the other raiding group in my guild hasn't downed a single end-boss yet. Neither of our groups are so burned out that we're ready to give up, both groups have goals (albeit different ones) that they want to reach. I'm not saying everyone should be 13/13, I'm saying a lot of people are still having fun working on whatever their current encounter may be, and I'm furthermore saying that hardmodes are in fact content for most people that get to them. Past that, 19% of guilds have dropped Nef according to this, meaning for the majority of players, they aren't even on the "recycled content" yet. It is quite realistic to say that there is still life left in this tier.

As a side note - I'm of the opinion Chogall is significantly harder than Nef, assuming you have any way at all to control adds in P1....why do people have so many more issues with Nef? :/

@Kaylia. You're completely missing my point. My point is that your original point was hardmodes aren't content because they are recycled content. I'm saying you're wrong, they are. I'm saying nothing about progression burnout, etc, etc. You're just changing your tune now. Yes, people get sick of wiping to the same shit, yes, that's a reason to push the next tier. NO, IT IS NOT VALID TO SAY I'VE KILLED THIS BOSS 10 TIMES SO HEROIC MODE ISN'T NEW CONTENT. Period. You can say it's too hard, you can say it's out of reach, you can say you're sick of wiping. But killing it 10x on normal does not remove it from being content, I'm sorry.

Also, maybe I'm just too used to old Blizzard, when we had a fucking 10 month wait between raid content patches (BT>Sunwell), maybe I'm just more patient 'cause of it, but people screaming bloody murder after 3 months is just hilarious to me. 3 months vs 10...man the attention span of Cataclysm players is abysmal.

10 months BT>Sunwell
8 months Sunwell>Wrath
7 months Naxx>TBC
5 months Naxx>Ulduar

My best guess, is 4 months is about the right wait, judging from past content tiers and such, assuming that there is enough meat in it. Getting this antsy after 3 is just sad, especially when this tier has more in it than most any other tier to date....but I guess when the only thing that matter is the ilvl of your gear, and you can just wait for new content to get said ilvl, you're right, who cares about the content itself!

FaillureMidgard is 100% being dense in order to try and prove his point. That's why I stopped reading what he was saying. I actually think he may be a blizz CM in disguise since he is doing a great job of defending the super slow content cycle cata is presenting. reminds me of those XIV posters

lol? Go look through the dates of past patches. There hasn't been like a single one @ 3 months I think ever? Even the ToGC which Blizz says was too soon after Ulduar was still 4 months later. I was actually, back in the day, one of the louder voices saying Blizzard was too slow with content patches. I posted a huge rant on my guild's site (which was a top guild at the time), when the majority of us quit the game over the 7-10 month waits (and other complaints). But there is such thing as too fast, developers shouldn't push it out as fast as they can. You don't go get a good meal and devour it as fast as humanly possible, you eat it and savor it. Play the game to have fun, to PLAY the content. Yes there is such thing as too slow, yes too slow sucks. There's also such thing as too fast though, and that's when people don't get to do the content before new shit comes out.

[Correction]

the super slow content cycle cata is presenting. reminds me of those XIV posters

Cataclysm is 3 months old this week. You don't know 4.1's release date. You don't know 4.2's release date.

Shut up.

[Meresgi]

10 months BT>Sunwell
8 months Sunwell>Wrath
7 months Naxx>TBC
5 months Naxx>Ulduar

In BC towards the end you had the ability to farm BT/Hyjal and SWP. While SWP gear was the pinnacle, the BT/Hyjal gear was still pretty good and wasn't totally negated (You could get tier, attempts for legendaries etc. Guilds were having a hard time downing Illidan in some places, and SWP had the gate mechanic.

Same for Naxx to TBC. You had AQ40 and Naxx. And while Naxx was the top, you had a lot of gear and "tier" to get from AQ40 to help out in Naxx. C'Thun was still a bitch to beat and Sapph was a cockblock resist check.

For Naxx >Uld you had Naxx which was just rehashed shit, and completed by most within a few weeks easily. Then you had 2 Onyxia type bosses and that was it.

Also keep in mind Vanilla and TBC had world bosses to occupy people at the start as well as the raids.

Now you have BoT and BWD and Throne. BoT is laughable unless you're doing heroic modes but again that=/= content other then Sinestra. BWD is also boring other then Nefarian and Chim. They are also very quick raids as the trash ratio in raiding has gone down a lot.


I really have no issue with content coming out a little slow, but I do have an issue when the excuse is that hardmode fights are supposed to be "new" content. Hardly any effort goes into something like that and to people like me, who like to see how new gear looks, its a slap in the face because its all just recolored FFXI shit.

[aurik]

I'm not gonna say its perfect, there's obvious some issues in it, but they are mainly in distinguishing 25 and 10player guilds, nothing more (the achievements on armory are the same, it's probably guessing based on # of players that got it or something, I dunno). Looking back over it, ya, the 40% is probably off, but no I don't think your 25man estimate is off (I dunno what server you're on, but that's an average, nothing more...my backwater shitty server has like 4 horde 25man guilds alone...). Even so, nearly 16% of total guilds (defined as raiding guilds, ignoring guilds with 0 raid kills) have downed Halfus HM, I think that # is very likely correct, even if the 50% isn't (though the 25man percentage is guaranteed to be higher than 10). It's not the 1% or whatever you stated either way.

My extremely high-pop server (KT) has I think 7 or 8 guilds that are still active in 25-man. 1 horde, MAYBE a 2nd horde that I don't know about. Maybe 6-7 alliance. And I think the typical backwater server will have 3-4. So in order to average almost 8, there's gotta be a whole shitton of servers that are secretly harboring 10+ 25-man raiding guilds.

As a side note - I'm of the opinion Chogall is significantly harder than Nef, assuming you have any way at all to control adds in P1....why do people have so many more issues with Nef? :/

Never pulled Nef on 25, but Cho'gall is a pushover on 25.
On 10 man, Cho'gall is significantly easier. Took us like a grand total of 8 pulls to learn Cho'gall, and we're well over 30 pulls on Nef without being "close". But a lot of that is because we can't get a solid 10 raiders together anymore, every week we're purp-training a new shitbag that we've brought in to replace someone who has burned out and no-shows.

---

I think the main reason why content seems "slow" (when in reality most non-hardcore guilds didn't start seriously raiding until January, so we're barely in month 3. At this point in tier 10 the lich king fight was only 2-3 weeks old) is that we are still hungover from the terrible length of ICC/T10, a full 11 months of which 6 the content was absolutely trivialized by the scaling buff.

[aurik]

...

[Boyiee]

I think content is just fine right now. My guild is on Nef, and we just lost our paladin healer who tried to steal some shit from the gbank and transferred off (gj got 3 stacks of flasks OH NOES). We have had chogall down for a bit, but haven't even tried halfus heroic yet... personally I'm fine with this as I rank top 50 on every normal halfus and we've only been killing 2 drakes. The 25man I was in during wrath was a top 100 guild, and with algalon and yogg0 - it just seemed like TOC was too soon. Heroic content for me is new content, content you can choose to or not to do. Pacing seems fine so far, how many sinestra kills are there? How many glory of raider achieves?

I will say though that one of the main things I miss about TBC was the sheer amount of things that we did at lower tier content. We would do kara, gruul, mag, some ssc and tk every week. ZA thrown in when that was out (until BT released and I moved to a better guild to do illidan and then sunwell, but even then we did Hyjal/BT/Sunwell weekly). Where with Wrath, we did nax until ulduar came out, then did ulduar till toc came out, never setting foot in the old places ever again, not even on alts. I'm not sure if this had to do with ilvl's of items, or lesser items being at least kind of valuable/useful for more than one patch like DST, or just because it was fun or worth doing for badges etc.

[Arvin]

There are very very few glory of the raider kills, but there are more and more guilds downing Sinestra. (We're damn near close to it, even through a recruiting/rebuilding phase). But hey, to each his own I guess. If hardmodes are "just the same fight but bigger numbers" then let them have that mentality, maybe people will get bored enough and leave WoW. Some of the servers are too damn populated anways.

Also, yeah. This content is going by at a great pace. Like Correction said earlier, look at the dates of patches released in every expansion. And I'm sorry but gearing for Cataclysm was not as easy as it was in WoTLK. Wrath was the biggest fucking baby of an expansion to exist and they pretty much spoon fed you gear. You used to be able to earn badges from spamming heroics, and that resulted in tons of gear. There is a VP cap in Cata and you can't even reach it via Heroics and you need to have a decent amount of raid encounters killed for the week to cap out.

[Lordender]

But a lot of that is because we can't get a solid 10 raiders together anymore, every week we're purp-training a new shitbag that we've brought in to replace someone who has burned out and no-shows.

This is why I only play WoW with people i've known for years from FFXI and do 10man. I don't trust random joe who's looking for a guild in trade or server forums because 9 times out of 10 they fucking bounce on you when they get a few pieces loot or just disappear without a trace which causes a never ending cycle of having to replace people and re-gear them for hardmode progression.

People on WoW that do that shit piss me the fuck off because you either wanna raid or you don't wanna raid its not a choice of "ehh maybe when I feel like it". I just find it a big waste of everyones time when you gamble on some people because you need a few people to fill out the raid only to get trolled in the end.

Joining a raid guild and not showing up to the raid night without any valid reason is fucking trolling the guild and I can't stand people like that.

[aurik]

This is why I only play WoW with people i've known for years from FFXI and do 10man. I don't trust random joe who's looking for a guild in trade or server forums because 9 times out of 10 they fucking bounce on you when they get a few pieces loot or just disappear without a trace which causes a never ending cycle of having to replace people and re-gear them for hardmode progression.

People on WoW that do that shit piss me the fuck off because you either wanna raid or you don't wanna raid its not a choice of "ehh maybe when I feel like it". I just find it a big waste of everyones time when you gamble on some people because you need a few people to fill out the raid only to get trolled in the end.

Joining a raid guild and not showing up to the raid night without any valid reason is fucking trolling the guild and I can't stand people like that.

No shit, the sad part is that we aren't even recruiting people from outside the guild to come. We were a 25-man guild all through WotLK and all the way until February and now we can't even field 10. It's long-time guild members that plug-pull moments before the raid is set to start (after we've done cuts, so the whole raid gets canned), or when we organize on Tuesday and say "Thur-Fri = nef nights" don't mention they can't make it Friday until Friday morning.

If we don't even get a pull on Nef next week (since this week we farmed our 11/12 on Tuesday, can't get enough people for any day of attempts on Wednesday through Monday) I'm going to start apping elsewhere. Slott, I'm still looking at your guild. I have my app filled out, just waiting for next week to be another shitfest.

[Arvin]

It's really all down to a very thorough recruitment/application process. If your guild officers have enough patience and time to invest you can get quality recruits who truthfully do want to join a good atmosphere with people that have similar goals in the game. I guess server size plays a role as well. Through the process you just need to make sure their former guilds are not on bad terms with them, get some background information and look at the quality of the application.

Aurik, if you want a hardcore guild and wouldn't mind swapping to horde you could apply to us! Although I think our current needs are just a boomkin.

[aurik]

Nobody wants resto druids. Especially since it currently looks like we're still going to be the worst of the 5 healing specs going in to 4.1 and possibly 4.2 because Blizzard somehow thinks a 3 minute tranquility is going to compare well with PWB / AM / newTotem to get us raid spots.