Random Complaint Thread

[aurik]

Sorry you said too many dumb things FailureMidgard, for example dismissing both AM and HoSac. I see no point in arguing with someone that dumb.

[Boyiee]

Another reason this expansion seems weak imo is that heroics are a fucking drain. Even when you out gear them the pulls and bosses just go on, and on, and on, and on. Most heroics in WotLK took 10-15 minutes at max, which is about as much time as I want to spend doing frost badge/valor point grinding. I really don't want to have to go through getting 346 and rep a third time now because even as a tank with instant queues it was a slog.

See, I find this a wonderful thing. Stop babying players. I want you to be a better player and have to put the work in. I want you to actually earn the gear, instead of having all of it in a day or 2.

I'll make a trade: Cut down on the time it takes to do the instance, and in return, reward less valor/justice points to compensate for the amount of time saved. If it's 30minutes for 30pts, make it 20min for 20pts.

[Plow]

I hear ya, only Mediocrity exists on Horde side from those guilds that either cleared or made serious dents in Vanilla Naxx and Sunwell. Nurfed, Malicious Intent, and all the rest have long transferred to other servers that have some semblance of stability on Tuesdays.

The pugs on BR Horde are far better than any other I've seen, although I've never been Alliance side but I hear they're pretty good as well. When I tried to pug BH on my Shaman on Sen'Jin, people didn't know how to dispell, couldn't figure out the beyond simple mechanics after five attempts and half the dps couldn't hit 10k. Then I logged over to BR, ran a BH PuG in which the lowest dps was 12.5k from the shadow priest who was also doing dispells, everyone else was 14k+. So it's definitely true that leftovers are carrying BR now, but they're so much more competent than the players on pretty much any other server.

ally is good enough still that you can pug 20 man bh as long as you got a few guildies/friends to keep 18k or so

[FailureMidgard]

Sorry you said too many dumb things FailureMidgard, for example dismissing both AM and HoSac. I see no point in arguing with someone that dumb.

They are both weaker than their counterparts, I am not dismissing them. Sac cannot be safely used on a Lightning Machine/Breath Combo. On a Chim collapse, Sac is usable, but very dangerous. I can go on, but what's the point? Don't get me wrong, Sac has it's uses, but it's not something you're using all the time.

And I think Aura Mastery is a great ability -when you can use it properly-, but you're completely discounting the times that you can't, and ignoring that 6 seconds is a penalty and makes it unreliable. Maloriak's breath for example has a 9-10 second window that it can occur during, depending how many times he decides to delay it based on his random other bullshit. I'd say we manage Aura Mastery it properly maybe 3/4ths the time, but it really does suck when it falls off right before he finally decides to use his breath. And again, it is utterly useless for Nature damage. You're not going to argue that right? So Nef's machine, Chim collapses (both on HM( are 2 times a raidwall is a big deal - and Aura Mastery does nothing at all for them. I'm not saying the ability is useless, I'm saying it's of more limited use and you have a serious issue of "the grass is greener". NS is still a great ability. As you add more healers in 25man, I'm sure it looks a bit weaker, but in 10 it's huge and can/does replace tank cooldowns on a lot of fights (HM Chim, HM Maloriak, HM Nefarian are the 3 that immediately come to mind) when the time you generally use a cooldown is right after a short (2-5 seconds) window where the tank is going to drop fast. Nef Machine followed by a breath channel, Chim Collapse when the first melee hit is ~4-5 seconds after Massacre and first aoe spit is actually ~13-14 sec after (Sac is a great call there, really), Maloriak you have a 3 second window to heal your tank back up, if he doesn't get healed enough, he has to use a CD. Dismissing it is just well, silly.

[aurik]

"Man you mean I have to use my brain when using my cooldowns? This cooldown is garbage!"

(Also you can use Sac on Lightning Machine + Breath just fine, just have to use your brain, sac diverts tops 25k damage from NLM, bringing damage taken up to 100k for the sac paladin, leaving him with 20k-30k, the breath does ~30k per half second which a diversion of 9k per half-second. All you have to to survive this combo 100% is to pre-wind a heal on yourself, or use a potion / healthstone, or use divine shield. Also AM works on the breath fyi.)

[Falaras]

Another reason this expansion seems weak imo is that heroics are a fucking drain. Even when you out gear them the pulls and bosses just go on, and on, and on, and on. Most heroics in WotLK took 10-15 minutes at max, which is about as much time as I want to spend doing frost badge/valor point grinding. I really don't want to have to go through getting 346 and rep a third time now because even as a tank with instant queues it was a slog.

You know I seem to be the only person that thinks this, but I think one of the worst things that Cataclysm brought about was destroying stats. Who cares about raiding when you in reality only gain 1k~ DPS from going to full 359s from 346 and epic vendor gear? It seems silly to make it so the only thing that matters are primary stats (INT, STR, AGI) and set bonuses...maybe trinkets and weapons too.

[Tajin]

Dunno I've always looked at the gear (since XI) as an extra and not the purpose of grouping up with 4+ other monkeys. If fact, the more gear I get the harder it is to keep focus because shit goes ez-mode. that or whooosh

[seph32]

Will have to disagree whole point about raiding is accomplishment that you clear the content and obtaining loot. And if you fully clear you don't really need to do heroics unless you're gearing an alt

[Correction]

You know I seem to be the only person that thinks this, but I think one of the worst things that Cataclysm brought about was destroying stats. Who cares about raiding when you in reality only gain 1k~ DPS from going to full 359s from 346 and epic vendor gear? It seems silly to make it so the only thing that matters are primary stats (INT, STR, AGI) and set bonuses...maybe trinkets and weapons too.

It's those small jumps in gear progression that will prevent another disaster like Sunwell Radiance/Chill of the Throne from nullifying said gains at the cost of pure tank survivability and twitch healing that dominated the later TBC/Wrath raids.

[FailureMidgard]

"Man you mean I have to use my brain when using my cooldowns? This cooldown is garbage!"

(Also you can use Sac on Lightning Machine + Breath just fine, just have to use your brain, sac diverts tops 25k damage from NLM, bringing damage taken up to 100k for the sac paladin, leaving him with 20k-30k, the breath does ~30k per half second which a diversion of 9k per half-second. All you have to to survive this combo 100% is to pre-wind a heal on yourself, or use a potion / healthstone, or use divine shield. Also AM works on the breath fyi.)

So, we're stuck on normal mode? Sorry, didn't realize that. Breath is 50k per half second, Lightning Machine is 130k unresisted (also, 25k is assuming a resist, which is -usually- but not always the case). Divine Shield+Sac has always been a solid pairing, but is now using a 5minute cooldown that on some fights you may want to use defensively for yourself (aka, you used in P2 when you got explosive cinders...). You also assumed that a melee hit didn't land, and for some reason are now using a health potion, and/or healing yourself instead of flat out healing the tank and letting Beacon heal yourself (or more likely the other tank who just took a Machine + has adds hitting him). Our last attempts at heroic Nef, I took 104k average damage from LM across all fights. Sac alone is going to kill the paladin any time he doesn't shield that (before the breath even hits...this was with the 195 resist or w/e as base is ~130k). Obviously, the less threatening something is, the more useful Sac becomes, but you're talking about heroic mode fights people wanting XYZ class, then trying to say this amazing tank cooldown is good for heroic mode fights when it really isn't. As far as use with Divine Shield, on Nef particularly, I wouldn't bother in P1 at all, let people use shorter cooldowns (2-3 min cooldowns that are guaranteed to be back up in time) for the ~2 machines you proc in phase1. Phase2 use of DS entirely depends on how far behind you are on healing/etc, if you get a cinders, yada yada. IF you still have it up at the end of P1, by all means DS+Sac a LM in P3, but that's a big if, and you may as well call it a 5min CD. Meanwhile, the druid/shaman are doing the same pre-casted heal on the tank, following it up instantly with a NS as an extra cooldown for these "Combos" that do ~320k dmg in <5seconds before accounting for resist/block/parry. Granted, Pain Suppression is still superior in every way to NS as it's predictable damage, but NS is still a very good ability in this situation, and as far as LM goes on the tank, can easily save your tank and thus your raid (and furthermore, it can still be used vs all the other things I listed where PS can specifically -not- be used, aka reactively).

Finally, yes I realize AM can be used on the breath, but once again, the breath is -not- a static timer, and it is completely possible that you can "miss" having AM up when it hits. If you're smart about using it, you'll always get the reduction of it (Say he generally uses it between 1 and 10 seconds of it coming off CD, you use it when you're 4 seconds into the window and he hasn't used breath yet), but it's still not something you can reliably rotate for every brath - aka, he may breathe before you use AM in this case, meaning it's going off with 0 cooldowns up. Still useful, but if the breath is following the LM hit, it may be too little too late, or it may work out, really depends on how many heals landed. Is it a good ability? For sure. Is it as good as some other CDs? No. Lightwell is still better in virtually every single scenario in 10m. In 25, you can make an argument for Aura Mastery simply because it hits 25 people instead of 15, but I still think Lightwell will at least compete with it there. Also, I realized we kinda forgot about LoH, which is going to be far better for Nef-H than Sac is (which is essentially useless for tank damage, better off using it during P2 on someone on your pillar who drops lower to equalize your HP with theirs.

As for your opening statement, when using your brain results in you not using the cooldown, that makes the cooldown less useful. That being said, I don't think that by design every cooldown should be used every encounter, so I have no qualms with this (though really NS is used every encounter), only with statements saying NS is trash and then implying (maybe I misunderstood your intent) that Sac is better than NS universally. Really, I do agree with the idea that druids are lacking in the CD deparment, overall, but everything I said in the last paragraph of my last long post still holds.

[aurik]

Not even gonna read your whole post. The amount of guilds doing 10man nef heroic is vanishingly small (and they're probably abusing the heck out of raid stacking), and you've already agreed with me that in 25m barriers are better.

[Odon]

10 man heroic nef.



Lol.

[FailureMidgard]

Not even gonna read your whole post. The amount of guilds doing 10man nef heroic is vanishingly small (and they're probably abusing the heck out of raid stacking), and you've already agreed with me that in 25m barriers are better.

Good stance to take when you don't want to be wrong I guess? It's not just "10 man Nef", it's the entirety of 10 man content (unless you're going back to normal mode Nef, in which case I dunno why the fuck you're complaining, that shit is insanely easy to heal). But yes, the general idea is when 1 ability hits 25 people, it's better than an ability that hits 15 people. It has nothing to do with the idea of absorption vs healing, it has to do with abilities that for some reason were immune to the "more than 6 players diminishes the effect". IF you made Lightwell 25 charges, it would be comparable to a barrier with it's own ups and downs, in 25man (or made it a "smart" spell that scaled with # of players in raid/party from 5 to 10 to 25). Yea, it couldn't stop 1 shots, but on something like Nef it would be at least equal, if not better (someone who got a lucky resist roll skips clicking it and saves the charge for the next machine still). And having it's own strengths and weaknesses vs other CDs is good design, in my opinion. Too much homogeneity is not a good thing.

Furthermore, BoSac is just as useless for Nef heroic 25, and is only going to be used with DS up, no idea why you'd think that would be any different in 25. And again, this isn't the only heroic it's a pretty trashy CD for. Still bad for Chimaeron collapses at the very least (Whereas NS is good).

Finally, as for "Raid stacking in 10man", we'll just use WoL Nef-10H kills:
Paladin, Disc, Druid
Paladin, Holy, Disc
Paladin, Paladin, Holy
Paladin, Druid, Priest(don't read Russian or w/e it is)
Paladin, Druid, Disc
Paladin, Druid, Disc
Paladin, Druid, Priest(don't read squiggles)
Paladin, Priest, Shaman
Paladin, Disc, Druid

Ya, paladin and priest are a bit more represented (shocking, I didn't know everyone thought they were the better healers - wait I did), but saying they are "abusing the hell out of raid stacking" is a bit of a stretch. 2 out of 9 guilds didnt have a shaman or druid, 6 had a druid, 1 had a shaman, and chances are this is their regular healing line up, not a special stack for Nef. And I'm sure you don't care, but fwiw, Nef 10man seems extremely doable (no idea if we'll get it or not, but I definitely think it's within our reach), P3 is the easiest of the phases, and it seems easier than plenty of hardmodes out there with less kills. The 10man community has a problem with playing lemmings, and blindly following some really odd order. Atramedes is easier than Halfus (in 10 at least), yet somehow ended up as like the 5th or 6th kill for most people, and to break 100 kills. Conclave is significantly harder than all 3 BWD heroics (Chim, Maloriak, Atra), yet ended up as 2nd in the kill order, etc. Nef to us seems easier than Al'Akir, Conclave, and more...but people are scared of it because it's Nef (and due to people struggling on the normal mode because everyone has a terrible strat since the first videos released had a terrible strat - us included, but we changed it).

[Arvin]

10 man heroic nef.



Lol.

Some hardmodes are actually a lot easier and simpler on 10man, i.e Sinestra and Al'akir to name a few. Some people have better luck with 10M Nef too.

[Falaras]

10 man heroic nef.



Lol.

Not sure what that exactly means but 10 man H Nef has been killed very few times, by far less than any 25 man heroic boss.

[Viq]

Finally, as for "Raid stacking in 10man", we'll just use WoL Nef-10H kills:
Paladin, Druid, Priest(don't read squiggles)

Both Natalis and 동네형 use Disc Priest in their Nef 10H kills.

[Guitarman]

Reason #7,642 not to go to Azuremyst: 25 man ICC achievement run, we could not get past marrowgar. Seems the very difficult fight plan of dps spikes and stay out of big blue flame shit is too hard for our raiders.

Kill me.

[aurik]

Man this 30% damage reduction single-target 2-min cooldown is terrible, I totally wish I could instantly heal for less than swiftmend+effloresence every 3 minutes instead. Then I could use it at ANY time during nef 25 instead of 95% of the time. (PS: you can BoS while standing in the PWB just fine)

Hey look 8 of 9 healer comps you posted are Paladin + Disc, totally not raid stacking.

[Katlan]

@ FailureMidgard

This is a random complaint thread, stop white knighting this shit up. You have been doing it for pages and its annoying as fuck. Random Complain thread is here for a reason, this is not a thread for you to enter and white knight every fucking complaint

[Aksannyi]

Thank fuck I'm glad someone said it, this thread has been seriously fucking annoying to read the past few days.