Random Complaint Thread

[[Cookies]]

Not trying to "go there" but seriously don't assume because you read something at such and such place it's absolutely 100% fact and anyone that disagrees is dumb and inexperienced. The last time I explained how to manipulate the mechanics to someone he showed his guild the next day and they 1 shot 25 man for the first time.

I knew that Fade and other threat reducing mechanics worked long before reading that thread. I knew that it worked as I'd used it during fights. Explain to me why an FC will stop attacking me when stood next to me despite getting beaten on when using Fade. And other people around me isn't a reason, I stand away from people and i've had this happen when everyone else is topped off.

Anyways, if a mob doesn't have threat, it does NOT have a threat table (ala mounted ToC fight).

There's not much point arguing about it anyways, I know i'm right and you can believe whatever the fuck you want to believe.

[Correction]

Anyways, if a mob doesn't have threat, it does NOT have a threat table (ala mounted ToC fight).

It has long been my understanding that every mob in the game has a threat table, and that it's up to an override script in the encounter to have them ignore/reset/deactivate the table for abilities/what have you. This has been my working assumption since Karazhan and I've yet to see solid evidence to the contrary.

[Arvin]

TOC has been out how long? and people still don't understand the 3rd fight?

Correction is right, every mob DOES have one but there are exceptions where they put in the script that makes them overwrite threat at some frequency. For example, during champs the frequency is very high. During Lord Marrowgar the script kicks in during his bone storm.

[Jer]

I do wish the Looking For Dungeon tool would at least try to make a party have some sort of average equipment level. I understand and accept there are people who are leveling alts, and as such they will not have the greatest gear when they first enter. But last night I was pugging on my shaman as resto, and got into an H Gundrak group. I didn't have recount up, but I thought something was off when the snake boss got off a Poison Nova at all. And then it happened 3 more times. The confirmation came when Eck enraged. ECK. I didn't even know the motherfucker had an enrage. If there wasn't a goddamn debuff keeping you from queing immediately I would have left.

[Onorgul]

Anyways, if a mob doesn't have threat, it does NOT have a threat table (ala mounted ToC fight).

I'm not even sure I believe this. If they don't have a threat table, then I had one crazy Night Elf bitch absolutely fixated on me last night for no apparent reason.

And there is a minimum iLevel requirement for random heroics. Doesn't stop the people with a 5k gearscore from being utterly retarded, though. Had a Death Knight who basically AFK'd through Azjol-Nerub last night, which is sorta pathetic since it's not difficult to finish that so fast that you're at risk of still having the queuing debuff on at the end. If it weren't for how slow the Anub'arak fight is, I imagine one could be in and out with it still on.

[Eaglestrike]

I do wish the Looking For Dungeon tool would at least try to make a party have some sort of average equipment level. I understand and accept there are people who are leveling alts, and as such they will not have the greatest gear when they first enter. But last night I was pugging on my shaman as resto, and got into an H Gundrak group. I didn't have recount up, but I thought something was off when the snake boss got off a Poison Nova at all. And then it happened 3 more times. The confirmation came when Eck enraged. ECK. I didn't even know the motherfucker had an enrage. If there wasn't a goddamn debuff keeping you from queing immediately I would have left.

That's not a gear issue, that's a people are terrible issue. I can pull over 2k dps on any class when I first hit 80 and that's plenty fine for heroics.

[Bweigelt]

That's not a gear issue, that's a people are terrible issue. I can pull over 2k dps on any class when I first hit 80 and that's plenty fine for heroics.

This. I had a DK in full 245 T9 do 1200 dps in a H HoL run last night. Meanwhile our Mage in mostly blues was pushing 3000. I was second with 2100 as a tank while the epiced out warlock was only doing 1700. This game is not hard people are just dumb.

What was worse was that the Warlock and the DK didn't understand the Loken fight even after I put a big fucking circle over my head and said stack on me and move when I move. Instead the Warlock went and stood in the corner, and the DK just continued to try and dps through the nova. Needless to say there was only three of us left alive at the end. Not as bad as when I solo'ed Ick from 50% to dead because people couldn't figure out how to run out for the poison blast or dodge mines, but still furstraing.

[Plow]

Taunt forces them to attack you.

Fade forces them to not attack you.

No, it doesn't, holy fuck, learn what abilities do.

Fade reduces threat temporarily. That's IT.

Taunt forces mobs to target you for X amount of time, *AND* increases your threat to the highest currently on that mob.

Taunt's threat increase isn't even temporary, although some have the misconception that it is because it doesn't increase your threat generation, only the level of threat you're currently at, which may or may not continue to be the highest level.

Fade has NEVER not worked for me and it's generally the first button I press upon being attacked and with the way "threat" works in the fight I should only be MORE likely to be attacked as I take damage, but I fade and it's a non-issue.

Then you've gotten lucky a whole lot of times, seriously. Priests are generally a 3rd favorite target, our raid leader and the guild leader's alt he uses with our raid are both priests, both have insanity 25, and both know how to get shit off them... and it doesn't involve fade.

The Faction Champions have threat. Omen aside, even Blizzard's own API proves this. If they didn't, you wouldn't see varying quantities of red/yellow/no aura on their health bar aggro indicators among the champs as you move around/get hit. Your threat is directly proportional to the mechanics outlined in that article, no more no less. If you have threat, Fade CAN work, but since they drop their threat tables every few seconds and reevaluate it doesn't always work well. FD works consistently because it's a binary target=dead/nodead logic.

As stated, every mob in the game has the threat tables, omen, blizz ui, etc., will all show threat tables on any mob. There are plenty of mobs, however, that completely disregard said tables.


HAY GUSY SHADE OF ARAN SAYS I HAVE TEH MOST HAET HOW COME I CAN'T TANK HIM?!?! ZOMG FADE! SEE LOOK HE NUKED SOMEONE ELSE FADE TOTALLY WORKS!


You're right about feign death, though, as it just tells the mobs you're not even in combat with them anymore.

+1 for them having threat, you can modify your threat versus the faction champions in the traditional ways, but they also have their own special rules around which their threat is recalculated every ~5 sec. Any threat actions you take might seem like they're not having any effect outside of large aggro drops (fade, feign). Even though they seem chaotic they are actually quite methodical.

More detail here:
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic

You're right on one aspect, the system is predictable and manageable. However, that post is downright wrong on an extremely basic "wtf are you retarded?" level. OMEN SAY U HAVE TRET SO U HAVE TRET DERP DERP.

I knew that Fade and other threat reducing mechanics worked long before reading that thread. I knew that it worked as I'd used it during fights. Explain to me why an FC will stop attacking me when stood next to me despite getting beaten on when using Fade. And other people around me isn't a reason, I stand away from people and i've had this happen when everyone else is topped off.

Anyways, if a mob doesn't have threat, it does NOT have a threat table (ala mounted ToC fight).

There's not much point arguing about it anyways, I know i'm right and you can believe whatever the fuck you want to believe.

Topped off doesn't mean shit if they have lower total hp. I can be in my 50k+ raid buffed gear sitting at 60%, the priest standing next to me with 29k hp raid buffed and 20k+ less armor is still going to get attacked over me, pretty much every single time.

The same shit happens with their retarded ass healers... a cat deciding to beat on someone with ret aura can make the fight an absolute joke, because the pet hp is so low they'll sit there healing its 100 missing hp like madmen while a main mob sits at 20% but with higher raw hp number.

Explain to me why an FC will stop attacking me when stood next to me despite getting beaten on when using Fade.

Because of one of a multitude of reasons. Most likely, you came into a certain range of someone who had a lower total hp, or similar total hp and lower armor.





Anyway, look at it this way: if they have threat, why can't a warrior heroic strike them off you? It has no cooldown and creates a similar threat number to what fade reduces. (should be pretty close to 1500 threat per hs, if not more). (edit- forgot fade is % now, but it would be same concept with feint/cower)

If they actually respond to threat, then shit, this gonna be easy, thunderclap will get everything nearby attacking me every 6 seconds, can just heroic strike anything that turns. Let's go!


Oh, wait, you mean that won't work?

Maybe if I convince myself heroic strike has a taunt built in like some people have convinced themselves fade has an anti-taunt (which, in imaginationland here, also works on fights where taunt does not), it'll work then?

I mean, fade is just like feign death, after all.

Even all the threat you generated while you were feigned comes back when you cancel feign! Every last bit!


I dunno, I guess I just didn't think the fact that "getting attacked" and "having threat" are not one in the same was such a difficult concept.




You want REALLY simple proof that fade didn't do shit for you?

Watch the threat meters when the mob turns *back* to you after you've faded and it supposedly "worked for half a second."

I promise you they won't have changed until fade wears off and you do something to restore it after.



But you know what? I could be wrong about this.

On normal mode.

I really wouldn't know, seeing how normal mode has been a retarded bad joke of a pathetic encounter since the nerf, and I therefore haven't paid attention to shit other than "holy crap we were about 45 seconds off the achieve just by dpsing them down in order, we should do that sometime."


But it is definitely 100% out of the picture on heroic.

[Norellicus]

I've never been attacked by a champion without getting boosted to the top of their threat table first. I play with nameplates on and anytime I've gotten focused, they all turn yellow when I first get clipped by an aoe, followed by red once they decide to attack. (I hope you know what I'm talking about when I describe this yellow-red bit, if not turn nameplates on in a party sometime and you'll see.)

They have threat tables. They use them to determine their target. How they GAIN that threat is a completely different matter that is governed by that post about their logic process. There are TONS of encounters where you can observe how the game manipulates the threat tables to determine targets for various things (RSTS aside). It may seem like semantics to you, but there's a big difference between "They have a threat table and ignore it completely so Fade won't work" and "They have a threat table that adjusts very quickly without any direct input from the players so Fade doesn't work reliably"

I don't understand how you're missing this.

[Plow]

Probably because the focus of my job on FC is to manipulate raid hp and direct positioning to force them to attack certain people with priority, and things that increase or decrease threat have absolutely no effect on them whatsoever (hi2u glyphed salv <3).


Again, I could be wrong when it comes to normal, but in heroic it's specifically designed so that "threat control" abilities do nothing.

[Eaglestrike]

I can buy that in heroic fade could very well do nothing, I have yet to get my priest into a ToGC. In normal fade is an instant stop to damage taken though.

[Siniroth]

Emailing blizzard to see if I could get compromised account back, instead of an automated response being all 'please call our billing services as we cannot deal with compromised accounts through email' or something when the email I sent them contained something along the lines of (exactly, but they could write a code to pick it up) 'the account was compromised'.

Waited 48 hours to get a generic 'please call', not 'yes we can help, call' or 'we're not sure, we need more info, please call', just a generic 'please call'

I hate wasting time -.-

[Dezzimal]

Again, I could be wrong when it comes to normal, but in heroic it's specifically designed so that "threat control" abilities do nothing.

They don't "do nothing". If you fade 1 second before a threat recalculation it might not do much of anything, because your threat could just get reset to being a target.

[[Cookies]]

No, it doesn't, holy fuck, learn what abilities do.

Fade reduces threat temporarily. That's IT.

Taunt forces mobs to target you for X amount of time, *AND* increases your threat to the highest currently on that mob.

Taunt's threat increase isn't even temporary, although some have the misconception that it is because it doesn't increase your threat generation, only the level of threat you're currently at, which may or may not continue to be the highest level.

Are you fucking stupid? Forcing the mob to attack you = moving you to the top of the threat list. Your threat level still stays the same and the mob will stop attacking you if someone else has a higher amount of threat after it wears.

You seriously tell others to know what abilities do and you don't know yourself?

Then you've gotten lucky a whole lot of times, seriously. Priests are generally a 3rd favorite target, our raid leader and the guild leader's alt he uses with our raid are both priests, both have insanity 25, and both know how to get shit off them... and it doesn't involve fade.

Yes, lucky, because if you use Fade right before the threat recalculation it won't do jack shit they'll move back on to you. If you use it just after they recalculate they'll stay away from you.

As stated, every mob in the game has the threat tables, omen, blizz ui, etc., will all show threat tables on any mob. There are plenty of mobs, however, that completely disregard said tables.

TOC mounted fight. Unless my Omen is borked, they don't have threat tables or at least they're set to ignore it completely throughout the whole fight. In which case, they don't USE a threat table, is that better for you?

You're right about feign death, though, as it just tells the mobs you're not even in combat with them anymore.

No, it doesn't. If it did that, you'd have your normal threat back when you start attacking the mob again, which doesn't happen. It's a complete threat reset.

You're right on one aspect, the system is predictable and manageable. However, that post is downright wrong on an extremely basic "wtf are you retarded?" level. OMEN SAY U HAVE TRET SO U HAVE TRET DERP DERP.

Look at Omen while you're being attacked. You'll be at the top of the list.

Topped off doesn't mean shit if they have lower total hp. I can be in my 50k+ raid buffed gear sitting at 60%, the priest standing next to me with 29k hp raid buffed and 20k+ less armor is still going to get attacked over me, pretty much every single time.

I gathered that.

Because of one of a multitude of reasons. Most likely, you came into a certain range of someone who had a lower total hp, or similar total hp and lower armor.

Did you even read my post? Everyone else was topped off. I had the lowest absolute HP in the raid and the lowest armor. I wasn't standing anywhere near anyone else. Explain.

Anyway, look at it this way: if they have threat, why can't a warrior heroic strike them off you? It has no cooldown and creates a similar threat number to what fade reduces. (should be pretty close to 1500 threat per hs, if not more). (edit- forgot fade is % now, but it would be same concept with feint/cower)

If they actually respond to threat, then shit, this gonna be easy, thunderclap will get everything nearby attacking me every 6 seconds, can just heroic strike anything that turns. Let's go!

You are thick as fuck and should be taken out back and shot. The only way to gain threat is via Health Deficit, Armor, Absolute HP and Distance. That doesn't mean there is no way to lower threat. And if Feign Death works, so does fucking Fade.

Wall-o-shit

Look at omen while targeting a Faction Champion. Observe the fact that threat drop abilities such as Feign Death or Fade work as normal on Faction Champions, even on Heroic Difficulty. Observe the fact that taunt effects function as normal on Normal Difficulty, indicating that threat rules exist and can be manipulated using the normal tools, even if they function according to unusual rules.

The cause of the misunderstanding that Faction Champions have no threat is the fact that their threat is not the result of damage taken or healing sensed. It is calculated by different rules than any other encounter in the game.

It's funny how all of the sites with FC strategies mention Fade yet you seem to believe that your thoery is correct. You might think that you're an expert because you read Elitistjerks and know your highest dps rotation (oh wait, weren't you using t7, mage armor and glyph of mana gem or some shit?). You suck, period.

[Plow]

Are you fucking stupid? Forcing the mob to attack you = moving you to the top of the threat list. Your threat level still stays the same and the mob will stop attacking you if someone else has a higher amount of threat after it wears.

You seriously tell others to know what abilities do and you don't know yourself?

At this point I should just tell you to shut the fuck up and stop wasting my time, really.

Go read a fucking wiki page.

Taunt does 2 separate things.

It *forces* the mob to attack you, regardless of threat, for 3 seconds.

It also moves your threat to *MATCH* the current highest aggro.

Now, if you actually know jack shit about WoW's aggro, you know that mobs don't switch targets at 100% threat. They switch targets at 110% in melee range, or 130% out of melee range.


If you taunt off a 100 dmg ice lance, and the person follows it with a 20k dmg pyro crit at the exact same time, their threat will skyrocket past yours, but the mob will stay on you until the "taunted" debuff wears off.

Yes, lucky, because if you use Fade right before the threat recalculation it won't do jack shit they'll move back on to you. If you use it just after they recalculate they'll stay away from you.

Keep saying that, let me know when you can show me timed threat calculations on mobs that disregard threat through the routine manipulation it would enable and I'll consider listening.

TOC mounted fight. Unless my Omen is borked, they don't have threat tables or at least they're set to ignore it completely throughout the whole fight. In which case, they don't USE a threat table, is that better for you?

They're on a mount. Derp.

No, it doesn't. If it did that, you'd have your normal threat back when you start attacking the mob again, which doesn't happen. It's a complete threat reset.

If you're in faction champs, and you feign death with low hp and mobs close to you, and you pop back up still as lowest hp and closest range, they'll jump you instantly.

Again, this move has 2 parts. It does, in fact, reset threat as well. However, FC ignores threat, so that part is tossed out, as is the threat control part of taunt. (and taunt altogether, on heroic)

Look at Omen while you're being attacked. You'll be at the top of the list.

I see myself sub 76% fairly regularly, particularly when salv is up, and the mobs stay right on me.

I gathered that.



Did you even read my post? Everyone else was topped off. I had the lowest absolute HP in the raid and the lowest armor. I wasn't standing anywhere near anyone else. Explain.

Short answer: bullshit.

long answer: You did not fade and lose hate permanently while staying at the lowest hp and lowest armor in the raid while everyone else was out of range.

Don't destroy the potential shred of realism to your claims by getting downright bogus.

You are thick as fuck and should be taken out back and shot. The only way to gain threat is via Health Deficit, Armor, Absolute HP and Distance. That doesn't mean there is no way to lower threat. And if Feign Death works, so does fucking Fade.

Feign death and fade are different abilities. You're fucking stupid for not being able to figure out the differences between this shit, and I don't even know what do describe calling me "thick" because you refuse to acknowledge the most basic mechanics in the game.

Why don't cower, feint, salv work then? Why doesn't invisible drop aggro until you actually reach the non-combat state?

It's funny how all of the sites with FC strategies mention Fade yet you seem to believe that your thoery is correct. You might think that you're an expert because you read Elitistjerks and know your highest dps rotation (oh wait, weren't you using t7, mage armor and glyph of mana gem or some shit?). You suck, period.

Yeah, I call myself an expert on a fight where dps means essentially nothing because I know dps rotations.

And yeah, I was using t7 and the t7 playstyle on my mage... the first week I started playing it again since t7 content.



Again, as I've said, some people around here may be correct on normal mode, I'm not sure.

You, however, are fucking retarded and ignorant and make them look bad by "supporting" their claims with idiotic bullshit. You should stop.

[[Cookies]]

Go read a fucking wiki page.

Hahahahahaha !

on a fight where dps means essentially nothing

Cool story bro. Guess that means I can do this with 1k dps scrubs next time I pug.

Taunt does 2 separate things.

It *forces* the mob to attack you, regardless of threat, for 3 seconds.

It also moves your threat to *MATCH* the current highest aggro.

You do realise that when your threat is at the top of the list the mob will be attacking you hmm?

It doesn't do two things, it puts you at the top of the list for 3 seconds. That's it. Oh and as for wasting your time, you're the one choosing to post (and make yourself look idiotic in the process).

[Eaglestrike]

I'll be agreeing that Taunt does also move your threat to match the highest threat target of that mob. Pretty easy to see if you've done any raid tanking at all.

[[Cookies]]

I'll be agreeing that Taunt does also move your threat to match the highest threat target of that mob. Pretty easy to see if you've done any raid tanking at all.

I'm not disputing that.

[Norellicus]

I will caveat the following by saying I don't play a priest, so I may be completely off base here; but I'm pretty sure I have an idea of how this mechanic works.

Blizzard can easily overcome any natural threat adjustments by simply giving the primary target (based on the targeting logic we all agree they use) an ungodly amount of threat (in the hundreds of thousands at least, more likely millions). This prevents a quick taunt+shield slam from switching a mob for an extended period. It's conceivable they also drop threat tables every 4-6 sec to accommodate this mechanic as well, and this further helps deter tanks from trying to 'hold' anything in place.

The existence of these elements does not in any way preclude threat adjustments from happening, it simply makes them ineffective.

FD works 100% of the time every time because as long as you're down, you're a nontarget, so any attempt to evaluate threat against you won't happen. Fade, on the other hand, simply says current threat sum = 0; you're still a target, and you can still generate more threat of your own. If the dps champs turn to a priest, and the priest fades immediately, I'd hazard that it's a lot more likely to work than if you get attacked and try to get away and then are like "oh crap I'd better fade" because at that point the champs are likely to dump their global tables anyway and reevaluate, at which point the priest is liable to jump right back to the top of the list.

As I said, I don't play a priest, so I may be grasping at straws, but I do know this: I've never been attacked without being at the top of the threat tables first, and when I do get attacked it's by multiple dudes whom I've made no actions on personally...so I'm being fed threat from somewhere. I'm also pretty sure I've seen the dps champions scatter after killing someone/hunter FD and not focus a person again until the global reset.

Again, I'm not saying threat means jack in there, it doesn't. But it seems to me that the mechanic is being manipulated to achieve the results that Blizzard wants, and as a result devices that interface with that mechanic are also quite functional. They just don't work well enough, long enough to mean squat.


(You want to see another place where the threat table gets manipulated to hell and back, look at the Ick fight in PoS; when he chases someone the only person with threat is the person he's chasing, and if Omen is to be believed their threat got pumped so high that it's reading something in the range of 30k TPS for the duration, and once again I as a tank see blizzard's own status components acknowledge that I no longer have a significant threat presence on the target. Once it's over, the threat table reverts to its original values.)


Edit: Cookies, taunt does make your threat match that of the target's highest mark on the table bro. If you don't overcome the 110% mark by the time the 3sec taunt effect wears, then yeah you'll lose it to whoever was up there before, but your threat won't suddenly plummet back to wherever it may have been before the taunt. Go spam some non-damaging threat up on a mob sometime and have someone taunt it off you (without doing anything else), they'll get exactly your current threat value and will stay there.

[Plow]

Hahahahahaha !



Cool story bro. Guess that means I can do this with 1k dps scrubs next time I pug.



You do realise that when your threat is at the top of the list the mob will be attacking you hmm?

It doesn't do two things, it puts you at the top of the list for 3 seconds. That's it. Oh and as for wasting your time, you're the one choosing to post (and make yourself look idiotic in the process).

Go to your precious maintankadin forums.

Tell them taunts don't do 2 things.

Tell them there's no debuff that simply forces the mobs to attack you regardless of threat.

Finally, make a big fat bold all caps statement about how if you're the highest on the threat table, you're getting attacked no matter what.


Please, I beg you, do it.


And make sure to get screenshots before it gets deleted.