Black Mage in Salvage

[FailureMidgard]

Odd kuno i tend to end up with SJ and just phalanx SS up and run in and aggro link the mamools so the DD can plow through mob to mob. Trying to hash through my head right now things from zhaylom that might be more of a drag down. I know I'll hardcore stun for those gears. Maybe we spend different times on floors? Cause we do pull extra mobs from other rooms while we clear the normal path. I know i'll usually end up with sj magic hands body back (rings and or ranged if those are the duped cells). Sometimes end up with weapon if we are 6 manning or if the 7th is a cor.

Bard can SS, get phalanx2 from a rdm (though it isn't even needed), then aggro all the mamools and Horde Lullaby without interrupt chance...

In response to Byrthnoth:

Rat fights are a meh reason for a BLM, Sam+Drg+Thf can drop them with initial TP alone.

Pulling 6th floor as you said isn't terrible, but anyone with a fanatics can do the same thing, and if you really want, a rdm can CS Sleep2 everything, all you lose is the -agas (which sound bleh anyway, 'cause the mage will be tanking when melee gets around to waking it).

Bhaflau isn't even worth talking about, in my mind. Your group makeup doesn't matter there at all unless you're fighting an unnerfed boss. Group makeup is made even more lenient by the huge influx of Magic/JA cells if you are going for 2f Rampart.


Personally, I wouldn't refuse to take a BLM to a salvage run. I'd rather have a really good black mage who is also reliable (shows up, does what he's supposed to), than an unreliable or subpar melee. I'd rather take a player that doesn't cause drama. I definitely believe that a group with a blm can be just as successful as one without. But if you want to talk about what is "best", I don't think BLM has a place, at all.

[Kerberoz]

Obviously it's not optimal, but you can fit a BLM in without it being totally useless and without forcing someone to level an extra job they don't want to...

I'd recommend a BLM learn to pull everything, get a lamiabane for bhaf 3F and 4F, etc. If you have a BLM you should never be making the THF pull.

SS: pull 1F, kite the hammerblow mobs, stage links, sleeps for doing chelonian+chariot in one pull, stuns
Bhaf: spike damage on 4F gears when they spam restoral, pulls, stuns
Arra: stuns, 6F - either do the manafont fanatics thing, or just pull 1-2 mobs at a time and stage them if you didn't get JA, nuke the shit out of rats, stun the Bhoot nm without worrying about curing people
Zhay: stuns, kite charmed people, pull and stage mamools, pop chariot and pull 6F

[Loire]

Guessing people just sac their thf when doing the 5th floor in zhalyom to get past that gear clump which a sleepgaII logout does the trick nicely. Losing our mandau thf definitely would push down our kill speed though.

[FailureMidgard]

Guessing people just sac their thf when doing the 5th floor in zhalyom to get past that gear clump which a sleepgaII logout does the trick nicely. Losing our mandau thf definitely would push down our kill speed though.

Can do that without sac if your thf knows what he is doing. Our thf has ~100% success rate at deaggroing all those gears. Just needs to be far enough away from the Madame's room when he hits flee, that by the time he is in the back corner of her room, the gears will deaggro at the door. No need to log hate or anything.

[Loire]

Can do that without sac if your thf knows what he is doing. Our thf has ~100% success rate at deaggroing all those gears. Just needs to be far enough away from the Madame's room when he hits flee, that by the time he is in the back corner of her room, the gears will deaggro at the door. No need to log hate or anything.

Interesting, I think this is one of those situations where if it ain't broke don't fix it. That definitely gives me ideas. Though it is entirely playtyle I guess that plays a factor to. I'd still rather prefer melee go balls out with ws and let a blm focus on stuns instead.

can SS, get phalanx2 from a rdm (though it isn't even needed), then aggro all the mamools and Horde Lullaby without interrupt chance...

See I've never had a problem with interrupts so kinda a moot point to myself. And its not like we fail to complete any of the normal runs with our setup.

[FailureMidgard]

Interesting, I think this is one of those situations where if it ain't broke don't fix it. That definitely gives me ideas. Though it is entirely playtyle I guess that plays a factor to. I'd still rather prefer melee go balls out with ws and let a blm focus on stuns instead.



See I've never had a problem with interrupts so kinda a moot point to myself. And its not like we fail to complete any of the normal runs with our setup.

We basically don't even stun frogs. I Blade Bash once per fight if it looks like a good time (melee have some TP/etc), and maybe someone will do a stun WS if a death is casting, just to be safe. We average between 1 and 2 charms per frog, and just deal with it. I'm doubtful that a BLM can ever stun a charm though anyway...seems too fast, not sure though. In any case, we definitely have our melee spam WSes for dmg on frogs without a blm.

As for the interrupts on a sleepga, not saying you have problems with it, but the potential exists, where it doesn't for a bard. The BLM brings virtually nothing to the table there over a bard, but yet, if you're stuck with a BLM, then sure, make em do it, but it seems like you have 2 people doing 1 person's job at that point. A good bard can easily keep songs up, and keep mobs coming (not much different than merits really...). Having the bard throw out a few cures/nas with /whm is so meaningless...without a doubt I/my bards do it when needed, but thats generally 1 here or there between pulls, or on boss type things. Having an extra BLM pull is just adding a person to do half the bard's job, IMO.

But yea, that pull can be done with PD+Flee, and no death of the thief. Though, if you take a thf that's never done it, it may take a run or two to perfect it.

[Loire]

I easily agree that the potential exists but damn do those mobs hit for nothing dmg. It really depends on the blm i think but i've had no problems stunning a frogs charmga minus entering on thundersday. But just as easily when on sam ,I am in the same boat in terms bashing the frog and I'll soboro and hobaku my ass.

Not to say multitasking would be a pain and not giving it an excuse either but typically our brd is the cell caller. Though not sure how many mages you run with normally but our brd tends to be the only other na caster with our rdm in.

[FailureMidgard]

I easily agree that the potential exists but damn do those mobs hit for nothing dmg. It really depends on the blm i think but i've had no problems stunning a frogs charmga minus entering on thundersday. But just as easily when on sam ,I am in the same boat in terms bashing the frog and I'll soboro and hobaku my ass.

Not to say multitasking would be a pain and not giving it an excuse either but typically our brd is the cell caller. Though not sure how many mages you run with normally but our brd tends to be the only other na caster with our rdm in.

We generally have Sam (me), Thf (Mandau), Drg, Rdm, Sch, Brd.

It's definitely more support than we need for frogs and such, but the rdm and sch are both mage-only people, and it's a group of friends running more than anything. Our group has 8 total people, generally run with 6-7, since only a few of us can make every run. If there's a debate on cells, I call it, but for the most part, people know what cells are theirs, -especially- in Zhayolm.

In any case, I like a scholar a ton. Brings aoe-stona to the table for Breakga (not even worth wasting a stun on Breakga), bring sleepga/sleepga2 as well, stoneskinga/firestorm are nice additions as well, and can nuke to increase kill speed when needed as well. And of course, can keep up with healing 100% fine if the rdm dcs or something goes wrong somehow (rdm dies or w/e).

[Loire]

We generally have Sam (me), Thf (Mandau), Drg, Rdm, Sch, Brd.

It's definitely more support than we need for frogs and such, but the rdm and sch are both mage-only people, and it's a group of friends running more than anything. Our group has 8 total people, generally run with 6-7, since only a few of us can make every run. If there's a debate on cells, I call it, but for the most part, people know what cells are theirs, -especially- in Zhayolm.

In any case, I like a scholar a ton. Brings aoe-stona to the table for Breakga (not even worth wasting a stun on Breakga), bring sleepga/sleepga2 as well, stoneskinga/firestorm are nice additions as well, and can nuke to increase kill speed when needed as well. And of course, can keep up with healing 100% fine if the rdm dcs or something goes wrong somehow (rdm dies or w/e).

You can sleep stun breakga so no use wasting stun for it, hell if you are used to seeing mobs timing for ws, you can sleep stun a ridiculous amount of tp moves. And yah you run with an extra mage that we don't. Anything aside from the stoneskinga/firestorm is taking care of by a blm. And if you stun properly and intelligibly then the stoneskinga isn't doing much beyond the first floors. Odd how you don't mention phalanxga, I am going to assume your rdm rolls with full enhancing merits and phalanx II merits. I know in the past we'd swap it up and bring a sch with us pre group II sch merits and let them stone/phalanx/endmg ga our melee but pushing up to the higher floors that became less and less appealing.

[FailureMidgard]

You can sleep stun breakga so no use wasting stun for it, hell if you are used to seeing mobs timing for ws, you can sleep stun a ridiculous amount of tp moves. And yah you run with an extra mage that we don't. Anything aside from the stoneskinga/firestorm is taking care of by a blm. And if you stun properly and intelligibly then the stoneskinga isn't doing much beyond the first floors. Odd how you don't mention phalanxga, I am going to assume your rdm rolls with full enhancing merits and phalanx II merits. I know in the past we'd swap it up and bring a sch with us pre group II sch merits and let them stone/phalanx/endmg ga our melee but pushing up to the higher floors that became less and less appealing.

Yea, our rdm is 5/5 phalanx2. And I strongly disagree about stoneskinga not mattering beyond the first floor. It's amazing for Discoid, for 1. It's also great on every floor in zhayolm that you actually kill stuff on (including f4 and f6).

As for my mention of sleepga and nukes...I brought that up because that's virtually all a blm brings, and a scholar can do it too, perhaps even better (more MP efficient, doesn't need refresh, has graviga as well for control). On top of that, they have the stoneskinga, firestorm, aoe-nas (not just stona...paralyna, blindna, erase as well), and Cure4.

Again, a blm is fine and all if that's what you have, but I think it's below other options.

Also, do you really manage discoid fine with only 1 healer/support? We seem to need 2 for that, not sure...

{edit: we don't stun breakga because it's so negligible to remove it, for us, it'd be like stunning a diaga or poisonga or something...}

[Loire]

Yea, our rdm is 5/5 phalanx2. And I strongly disagree about stoneskinga not mattering beyond the first floor. It's amazing for Discoid, for 1. It's also great on every floor in zhayolm that you actually kill stuff on (including f4 and f6).

Also, do you really manage discoid fine with only 1 healer/support? We seem to need 2 for that, not sure...

{edit: we don't stun breakga because it's so negligible to remove it, for us, it'd be like stunning a diaga or poisonga or something...}

Discoid only happens when it decides to back to back discoid after the first one is stunned. My rotation on blm for that boss is ele dots and poison II, ride my stun macro if it does discoid stun it, follow up with a blizz 4, reapply ele dot and go back to stun macro when timer is ready. If it does a non discoid ws i'll toss cure III on the most hurt tank and go back to my stun macro.

The mention of sleep stun on breakga and not saying on diaga and poisonga is that it would be something that would create a larger pause in your melee's dmg.

Kinda funny you use stoneskinga to reduce dmg, we use stun to reduce dmg. So really its different choices for the same outcome. I'd say the advantage on sch could possibly landing a solid helix but manafont ice nukes rip the fuck out of the boss mobs.

[Lyramion]

The first half year we usually brought a BLM to Salvage.


Arp: BLM can solo the Ramps on 6th floor Sleep > Nuke. This way you can make sure no summons get out. Yes awesome melee can kitt it before it summons usually but it your group isn´t really good yet this can be a foolproof way.

Silversea: Good place for BLM. Not because he can do super awesome stuff but because Cells are so plenty. Nuking imps down while melee are under amnesia can help.

[cdgreg]

idk about salvage, but I do that a lot lol, it's usually so I can get a gravity on and run around in circles till someone saves me.

Sigh

[mdkuser]

DRks do that too, but its ok when its a melee /sigh. Guillotine > stun!

[Aymee]

This is going to sound ridiculous to most, but if you use SAMs or /sam and coordinate things a bit you can actually SC to benefit BLMs. My group does with Frag > Light or Light with SAM or DRG + WAR and with a MB it practically 1-shots any gear in any zone. Makes killing the warping gears in BR nearly foolproof. ...The mythic WSes make light and dark possible for most any melee.

...Setting up MBs also gets BLM past that "worthless dmg" gap if they can add dmg to anything whatsoever. If your melee can set up complimentary gear and TP at about the same rate you can pop of light or dark almost continuously and your blm won't want to cut themselves out of shame or boredom. I wouldn't suggest it for people who don't have it down cold though, since you'd just be wasting TP otherwise.

Edit: Examples would be things like Asuran > King's Justice > Kasha, and on a 3-way SC you get far fewer resists.

[Julian]

The first half year we usually brought a BLM to Salvage.

Actually we always brought 1-3 blms depending on how many ppl came, and I personally find that extra ppl coming as blm instead of extra melees is a lot more helpful. Only melees you should have is your main 2 melees, a thief, and maybe one melee on the second party. Anything after that for me feels like a waste. I'd much rather have them come as BLM instead.

With that setup we could easily and successfully do every NM and the boss in every zone without too much problem.

As a storm fife brd, during the bosses I would always swap parties to give the blm pt ballad, which helps a lot with kill time.

[Day]

Sigh

Ok so I lied. I really just cast another nuke.

[FailureMidgard]

This is going to sound ridiculous to most, but if you use SAMs or /sam and coordinate things a bit you can actually SC to benefit BLMs. My group does with Frag > Light or Light with SAM or DRG + WAR and with a MB it practically 1-shots any gear in any zone. Makes killing the warping gears in BR nearly foolproof. ...The mythic WSes make light and dark possible for most any melee.

...Setting up MBs also gets BLM past that "worthless dmg" gap if they can add dmg to anything whatsoever. If your melee can set up complimentary gear and TP at about the same rate you can pop of light or dark almost continuously and your blm won't want to cut themselves out of shame or boredom. I wouldn't suggest it for people who don't have it down cold though, since you'd just be wasting TP otherwise.

Edit: Examples would be things like Asuran > King's Justice > Kasha, and on a 3-way SC you get far fewer resists.

We do Yuki>Gekko>Drakesbane...and I'm confused, 'cause for us, that kills a gear. How are you managing to MB off that? Your melee must be insanely weak or not unlocked at all...

Actually we always brought 1-3 blms depending on how many ppl came, and I personally find that extra ppl coming as blm instead of extra melees is a lot more helpful. Only melees you should have is your main 2 melees, a thief, and maybe one melee on the second party. Anything after that for me feels like a waste. I'd much rather have them come as BLM instead.

With that setup we could easily and successfully do every NM and the boss in every zone without too much problem.

As a storm fife brd, during the bosses I would always swap parties to give the blm pt ballad, which helps a lot with kill time.

2nd BLM party? Huh. Anything past 7 people is a waste. Some people here will say past 6. Personally, I like 7, gives a little more room for leeway, but 8 seems pretty much useless in all zones it seems to me.

[Julian]

2nd BLM party? Huh. Anything past 7 people is a waste. Some people here will say past 6. Personally, I like 7, gives a little more room for leeway, but 8 seems pretty much useless in all zones it seems to me.

That was basically my take on it, except that if we had more than 7 people we would just throw them in as blms in the other party. All it can do is speed things up.