Windower v4 Alpha

[Ansems]

This.

Except they're stubborn and cannot support PC version over PS2/360 >.>

If SE makes a unilateral decision of updating PC version and not ps2 or 360 it will promote the use of PC over the rest and that means more possible bots.

[Aikar]

If SE makes a unilateral decision of updating PC version and not ps2 or 360 it will promote the use of PC over the rest and that means more possible bots.

Cause all 6 LS's having botting members since PC is now the primary platform is so much worse than 1 LS having bots and everyone else not.

Saying having a higher PC base is a bad thing because its more people who can possibly use a bot is like the worst thing you could of said lol...

and your damn right we have an edge, and we enjoy that edge.
Remember kids, this is not WoW, its not a PVP game.

If it was a PVP centric game, my choices in development would of been alot different in regards to fairness to non users.

But since its not, all we have is jealousy from people who dont use it. And I could care less about some jealous 'saint' ranting how he has to press 3 buttons instead of 1 to cast a spell, and how his ineffeciencies in playing worse in turn makes him a better player.

You dont see people QQing in wow over people using addons and making their game easier over those who dont use the addons, why the fuck do the cry babies need to be in FFXI?

WOW IS THE JEALOUS CRYBABY WHINER WAAAH BITCH GAME! GO TO IT AND WHINE THERE!

<That rogue did 1 more dmg on his backstab than I did Blizzard, this is totally unfair! FIX THIS NOW OR IM CANCELING>

[Callisto]

Looks cool, some of the TParty stuff sounds like a bit much in terms of shit all over the screen(at least to me), but a lot of it sounds really handy.

[Aymee]

To Aymee: Stop trying. Most people here lack the maturity to discuss what you are trying to argue as they take these discussions personaly and focus on "winning the argument". It's not worth trying, specialy when it comes to this specific topic. (Just look at the above poster for an example).

Disclaimer: I do use windower too. I'm cool too.

I know it's impossible to "win", but I'd at least like to think people are reading what I have to say. Perhaps some of them might actually think about it. I don't "cry" over windower, just saying... anything above and beyond the basic things that changes the game mechanics is far more likely to be looked upon as a banable offense. Do I think you should be banned? No. Though I note your sarcasm, I'm sure you're plenty cool for using it. I don't at all care. Why would I cry? If I felt insulted or hurt by its existence I could just go and use it, too.

I never said stop using it. Once. Just that people should consider that the changes starting to come aren't remotely in the spirit of the Windower that came originally. Changing text files for macros and displaying the data normally included in packets sent by the server is a lot different that changing how you perform actions in battle. That's all.

But since its not, all we have is jealousy from people who dont use it. And I could care less about some jealous 'saint' ranting how he has to press 3 buttons instead of 1 to cast a spell, and how his ineffeciencies in playing worse in turn makes him a better player.

Uh, this isn't about being a better or worse player, it's about changing how battle works and it possibly changing the difficulty of some things. You seem to be under the impression that everything should be made simpler in XI just because it can. If I were jealous I could just... up and use it. Hell, things like click-and-cast scare me in some cases because it means the next RDM in my merit PT might be even more horribly lazy and screw up even more. In that respect you should even worry.

You dont see people QQing in wow over people using addons and making their game easier over those who dont use the addons, why the fuck do the cry babies need to be in FFXI?

I'd rather not think about the average person or demographic of WoW players. At all. I'd love to think the average XI player has several years of age and a few decades of maturity above them.

[Jodwahh]

I'd rather not think about the average person or demographic of WoW players. At all. I'd love to think the average XI player has several years of age and a few decades of maturity above them.

I've played both games (FFXI 4 years, WoW 1 year) and to be totally honest it's pretty much the same whatever game you're playing, some people are immature douches, some are salt of the earth.

[Shassira]

I know it's impossible to "win", but I'd at least like to think people are reading what I have to say. Perhaps some of them might actually think about it. I don't "cry" over windower, just saying... anything above and beyond the basic things that changes the game mechanics is far more likely to be looked upon as a banable offense. Do I think you should be banned? No. Though I note your sarcasm, I'm sure you're plenty cool for using it. I don't at all care. Why would I cry? If I felt insulted or hurt by its existence I could just go and use it, too.

I never said the word cry. I believe you missed my whole point by a long shot. *shrug*

[Kohan]

...You just defined what an exploit is. Take the existing system and circumvent it.

No. In gaming terminology, that is not what "exploit" means. Here, an exploit refers to players doing things the developers didn't want them to -- unintended functionality. You can already click on players, use the resultant menu, and cast a spell. If you're finding a way to do that even faster, even through a third party aid, you are still using a function that was programmed into the game for its intended purpose. You're simply doing it faster. That is not, by gaming's definition, an exploit.

Per good ol' Wikipedia, here's some examples of what qualifies as "exploits" in an MMORPG:

# Speed Hacking/Teleporting/Subterrain Travel - If character position in an MMORPG is determined by the client side (usually not the case), it is possible for players to send out artificial positional data and be instantly transported to any part of the world or used to speed up traveling speed by increasing positional deltas.
# Holes - Some games may contain accidental holes in the map, allowing the player to get under the map. Holes are mostly harmless, although some use them in player vs. player situations to sneak around and get behind their opponent, or attack from below the floor.
# Botting - A player who runs a third party program to control their character. The bot will kill monsters, loot money, mine ore, collect herbs or gain levels automatically without the player having to be in front of the computer.[1]
# Duping - Duplicating, or replicating items or money.
# Game Mechanics Exploits / Bug Exploits - There are also other exploits involving the physics of the game, sometimes in conjunction with items. This includes using wall-walking to get into unfinished areas or abilities to make one's character unattackable by mobs or other players[2] and sometimes are able to attack back.
# Data Mining - Players will try to access files not yet in game and then host them on websites to expose content not yet released (usually new zones, items, and graphics).

Being able to do something that was originally programmed into the game, even if through different means, is not exploiting. This isn't even getting into semantics, so don't go there. It doesn't fit the definition.

As for my familiarity, I have both worked on and tested a variety of online games -- not in public beta, but actually as a paid developer/tester -- so I am very familiar with what does and doesn't fall under this banner. There were a lot of things we had to work out not only before games went to the big three for approval, but after the fact, particularly when patches were involved. Quite a few people on BG know my name, and you can find it without looking that hard. Toss it into Google and behold! My name is in the credits for a bunch of shit, and even though I'm not in development anymore, I still work in the industry.

So, no. Not an exploit. Doesn't trigger a function that isn't supposed to be there. Doesn't do anything game-breaking. Doesn't circumvent things like the old PSO trick that let you cast offensive spells on other players.

In the same spirit you could say "everyone who keeps playing gets level 75 eventually anyway so we might as well skip the EXPing process to save everyone time"... and ask Windower to do that for you. An extreme example, but that is your logic.

An "extreme example" like that doesn't even fit. If you're saying something like that, it would only be appropriate if I suggested Windower implement a cure bot so the mage never has to click anything. I don't advocate taking away the challenge and making the game completely effortless, and neither do the people who program Windower. Way to insult their morals, though.

Regarding changing MP costs and the linking to this, that's an official development team decision. How you're extending it is that we should have been able to lower the MP cost ourselves already because we found it inconvenient... since Windower takes what some people find too bothersome and adjusts it. Not at all a valid comparison.

Are you comprehension disabled? I was comparing the FFXI enhancements and modifications to what goes on with WoW. Blizzard makes updates exactly like the sort SE is doing now, and the WoW community creates add-ons which simplify gameplay, which is like the Windower folks and their plug-ins. How do you not understand this?

[Raineer]

I've played both games (FFXI 4 years, WoW 1 year) and to be totally honest it's pretty much the same whatever game you're playing, some people are immature douches, some are salt of the earth.

When I first started trying WoW, there was a clear delineation between the average age/maturity of the players in the two games.

Now it's exactly the same. For the last 2 years no matter what linkshell I've been in all the guys (left unchecked) want to talk about is fucking each other in their asses and how gay they are. The girls (the ones that actually exist) are still mostly about flirting for gear. Like it or not FF has been declining steadily for a long time.

[Cow_k]

Yeah, immaturity is rampant in these games, and hell, a lot of the internet in general. Most people can't help but throw the most raunchy, annoying, pointless shit everywhere and while it's annoying, what are you going to do? Just have to deal with it mostly. Just look to the spam forums and you get a good idea of a lot of the type of people out there these days lol.

As for windower, this is a tool that's offered for free to anyone who wants it. Nothing tells PS2 players and Xbox players that they can't go get a PC and use it. I used to wonder if windower should be considered unfair to others, but quite frankly, it's easily obtainable by everyone and honestly, just playing on PC even without windower is an advantage over people who don't just due to being able to set higher resolutions, lessen chat box sizes etc. meaning you can see more and potentially run the game faster than the lagfest that the 360 and PS2 version is.

Now whether plug-ins are getting to the point where you're barely even playing the game anymore versus sitting back and practically letting the game play for you, that's a different argument. Stuff like hermes seems a little over the top to me personally, but that's just a personal opinion.

[shaddix]

Uh, this isn't about being a better or worse player, it's about changing how battle works and it possibly changing the difficulty of some things. You seem to be under the impression that everything should be made simpler in XI just because it can.

The argument aikar is talking about:

pc player: hey I just moved to pc and now I just have to press one macro to cast a spell

ps2 player: well I have to press three buttons to cast instead of one thus making me more skilled at ffxi than you are.

This is similar to saying you are more skilled at "toaster operations" because you have a shitty toaster that requires you to press three buttons instead of one to toast your bread.

[dejet]

why fight with someone? we all know windower gives us a big + over ps2 users. it saves time mostly.

1) faster/better macros
2)distance (i see this as a time saver as well. not like you cant get to max casting range without it just cure back up a little till you cant cast no more, or ranger just shoot till you hit that sweet spot.)
3)tp (who gives a fuck?) nothing vent cant do really but then again most who hate windower must not use vent too.
4)spellcast (i will not let you take this from me... just shut up)
5)recast (so what? nothing /echos cant do)

outside spell cast i do not see one thing that can not be done in the game but is just a little slower. who cares? it adds something to the game that makes people like it more. i know its *cheating* but it just makes things that much more fun.

edit: i have to side and say fillmode is cheap but i use it >.> lol

[SephYuyX]

Youre all a bunch of cheaters, why havent you deleted your copies of windower yet? Dont be a part of the problem, be a part of the solution, lets rise up together with SE and get this unfairness stopped.

[The Blackrose]

Youre all a bunch of cheaters, why havent you deleted your copies of windower yet? Dont be a part of the problem, be a part of the solution, lets rise up together with SE and get this unfairness stopped.

You need a better hook.

[Aikar]

4)spellcast (i will not let you take this from me... just shut up)

PRY IT FROM OUR FUCKING DEAD FINGERS!

SC Will still go on even when im banned/quit playing, itll go open source before SC is ever removed from this game

[Ansems]

Cause all 6 LS's having botting members since PC is now the primary platform is so much worse than 1 LS having bots and everyone else not.

Saying having a higher PC base is a bad thing because its more people who can possibly use a bot is like the worst thing you could of said lol...

and your damn right we have an edge, and we enjoy that edge.
Remember kids, this is not WoW, its not a PVP game.

If it was a PVP centric game, my choices in development would of been alot different in regards to fairness to non users.

But since its not, all we have is jealousy from people who dont use it. And I could care less about some jealous 'saint' ranting how he has to press 3 buttons instead of 1 to cast a spell, and how his ineffeciencies in playing worse in turn makes him a better player.

You dont see people QQing in wow over people using addons and making their game easier over those who dont use the addons, why the fuck do the cry babies need to be in FFXI?

WOW IS THE JEALOUS CRYBABY WHINER WAAAH BITCH GAME! GO TO IT AND WHINE THERE!

<That rogue did 1 more dmg on his backstab than I did Blizzard, this is totally unfair! FIX THIS NOW OR IM CANCELING>

I'm not whining ._. just saying

[Aikar]

eh the whining comment wasnt really to you/people in this thread, that was more to the other sites where people really WHINE about windower =P

[Nicostrato]

Seriously, though, looks nice. I hope it fixes Spellcast crashing when you spam it with commands.

Aikar posted a hot fix for this recently, It worked wonders for me.

[Pro]

I don't understand how having windower makes shit "less difficult"...which seems to be people's excuse against it. That's total bullshit, all the features on windower are based more so on convenience, and stuff that SHOULD have been integrated from the beginning...or at least updated as time went by. But ofc, PS2 limitations...bullshit bullshit bullshit...I love FFXI, but despise the fact that the PS2 is holding it down in areas it could expand ;\

[Raineer]

I don't understand how having windower makes shit "less difficult"...which seems to be people's excuse against it. That's total bullshit, all the features on windower are based more so on convenience, and stuff that SHOULD have been integrated from the beginning...or at least updated as time went by. But ofc, PS2 limitations...bullshit bullshit bullshit...I love FFXI, but despise the fact that the PS2 is holding it down in areas it could expand ;\

I don't get the argument either. I played with the exact same macro swaps on PS2 that I did on PC. I just had to hit 3 macros instead of 1. My fingers hurt more on PS2 but that doesn't affect my gameplay.

Windower is a health benefit. You should charge for it so I can make it a tax writeoff.

[WyldFyre]

"PS2 Limitations" excuse lost a lot of steam when SE announced that buyers of their new authentication toy also get a mog satchel, when ppl have asked for more space for years and given that tired excuse for not implementing it.

Now that they can use it as a gimmick to make a buck, PS2 Limitations goes quietly away for this issue.

SE: The prevalent RMT company afflicting FFXI.