Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

[Amastacia]

Utsusemi: San wouldn't fix NIN, really.

In DD tanking situations, it can't keep up with the damage output of 2h DDs, and Provoke isn't enough to close the gap.

In endgame tanking situations, it's actually still pretty good, just everything it can do, PLD can do more easily, and with less stress placed on the rest of the tank party. Biggest pitfalls are mediocre magic damage mitigation, heavy reliance on support, and inability to hold casts through hits like PLD frequently can thanks to shield blocks. I don't disagree with PLD's strength at tanking, but it's sort of negated the need for any other job that can fill the role because it is so purpose-built to succeed.

[Virtuous Saint]

The problem is that Square-Enix wants Red Mage to do a bit of everything, but the players only use it for Healing, Enhancing, and Enfeebling magic. These adjustments are trying to get players to use Red Mage in new ways, the ways they were originally intended.

Edit: They're not expressing an opinion, they're whining that they don't get exactly what they want.

You have to be a god damn moron to think the developmental team of any game in creation isn't looking at what the "players" want. Their soul purpose in developing new content is to entice people to buy their game, or continue playing their game as long as possible. You apparently know absolutely nothing about marketing products, or you would know this. SE's primary attention should be targeted at what the player-base would find exciting... attractive... enticing..., while keeping a balance to overall game play, thus having a level attraction to buy the game or continue playing throughout all jobs. Unfortunately they are looking at what morons find useful, such as yourself.

[Seraph]

Tier2 En-Spells should be able to target party members and also grants a bonus elemental resistance which stacks with Bar-Spells and Bard Songs. Make the recast moderately high to prevent too much abuse.

Now THAT would be nice and very applicable to soloing, partying, or endgame.

[SenseiFF11]

You have to be a god damn moron to think the developmental team of any game in creation isn't looking at what the "players" want. Their soul purpose in developing new content is to entice people to buy their game, or continue playing their game as long as possible. You apparently know absolutely nothing about marketing products, or you would know this. SE's primary attention should be targeted at what the player-base would find exciting... attractive... enticing..., while keeping a balance to overall game play, thus having a level attraction to buy the game or continue playing throughout all jobs. Unfortunately they are looking at what morons find useful, such as yourself.

While I agree, please define what you mean by "player base". Because I doubt SE will adjust a job because the people that don't even "playing that job", want it another way... they are listening to the people that are actually using that job in question. Maybe in rare situations, when we have a lot of people complaining(like the sam nerf last year), but most of the times, it's the people that play the job. So what do you mean by "player base"?

Tier2 En-Spells should be able to target party members and also grants a bonus elemental resistance which stacks with Bar-Spells and Bard Songs. Make the recast moderately high to prevent too much abuse.

Now THAT would be nice and very applicable to soloing, partying, or endgame.

honestly, those enspells tier II I'm sure will be important in engame situations the way they are already. And no-thanks for the "target party", I hope that you were kidding.

[Meian]

These adjustments are trying to get players to use Red Mage in new ways, the ways they were originally intended.

Wait for it...









Melee???????

[Jeryhn]

If Composure increased the duration of RDM debuffs as well as buffs, this update would have been made of win despite the recast nerf in using the ability. Too bad SE didn't realize this.

I'm happy for the SMN stuff, but generally, I'm always happy for any improvement to SMN. =/

[Seraph]

honestly, those enspells tier II I'm sure will be important in engame situations the way they are already. And no-thanks for the "target party", I hope that you were kidding.

Sarcastic more than anything else.

"You want utility? You will never /heal again!"

[Jeryhn]

havent seen you post on KI.com in a while... do you still play?

Off and on.

[Virtuous Saint]

Many jobs need more job abilities for multiple reasons:1. the more job abilities one can use, the more fun/less boring the job will be to play, which they did perfectly for this whm adjustments; 2. the better the player is the more effective, and efficient they will be playing the job (RDM simply fucking casts spells in support, a god damn retard can do that, but obviously a better player will be more effective in doing so), and thus the job has been adjusted to make it more useful, more fun, and the better the player the more efficient they will be. Think SCH abilities, the better the player the better they use their abilities to buff others, themselves, or damage the enemy.

Also SE needs to get away from support job meleeing, not only in job adjustments, but in gear like mythics. Support jobs are not meant to be in the front lines, and most end game HNM have AoE which do not allow for such stupid actions in the first place, and yet SE thinks it wise to add weapons which force you to melee in order for them to be more effective than HQ staves. The WHM adjustments basically make the job much more fun, its effectiveness is better, and the abilities allow for the better WHM to be so much more effective than the shit WHM, which is exactly what job adjustments should be doing.

RDM should never have had a melee update, its only real use is for a rdm who is soloing something, and job adjustments should not focus on solo aspects for support jobs, ever. RDM should have been given several abilities similar to the WHM abilities, in that the better you are at the job the more effective they will be in supporting your role in the party. Examples: ability that lowers Magic Acc for potency; ability that lowers potency for Magic Acc; ability that lowers Magic Acc for more duration; ability that increases Magic Acc for lower duration; ability that makes spell cost x4 mp for enhanced Magic Acc... ect.

BLM examples: ability that lowers dmg + magic acc for less enmity generation; ability that doubles enmity generation for enhanced dmg + magic acc... ect.

I'll quote myself because there is no chance I am typing this again.

These RDM adjustments are not completely useless, but they are not welcome, and they do not make the job more fun in a support situation which is where 99.9% of RDM play this game most of the time. As I stated, RDM as well as other jobs need additional Job Abilities because the use of Job Abilities is where you can spice the job up once more, and give the job new possibilities for enhancing the way it is played by the player-base at this time in the game.

There are hundreds of Job Abilities jobs could get that would not overpower them, or even change them much, but add useful, fun new aspects to the job. RDM in support has done the same thing always; WHM in support was boring as well, and this update makes WHM much more fun, and the better the WHM the more effective they will be at using those abilities, and spells.

I listed a few possible abilities they could have added to RDM to enhance the way it is played in support today, and make it more fun for the RDM instead of simply casting Haste, Refresh, Cures, and Enfeebling without the use of any abilities other than Convert, which is basically not used if they have best gear and relic ballad. As I said the RDM adjustments are not completely useless, however, they will not be used as intended in that Composure will hardly ever be used other than to occasionally enhance the duration of a few spells on yourself. Enspells -elemental resistance will most likely be far too weak to warrant hitting something before attempting to land an enfeebling spell.

[Redflame]

I kinda wanted "Break" and "Confuse" spells .. or maybe even "Stop" .-.;

They could have given us new enfeebling magic such as lowering damage resistance (blunt/ slashing/ piercing) or lock the mob to the last TP move it used for 1 turn.

I mean there is still space for creativity.

[SenseiFF11]

These RDM adjustments are not completely useless, but they are not welcome.

They are not welcome?, and who is going to judge that they are not welcome!? A job that is waiting for 5 years now, don't even deserve at least 1 update?! I think you exaggerate. Not to forget that the goal of this update was not to make rdm stronger!(cause I keep hearing people crying here: RDM don't need anything), it was to make him more useful to the front, wich is different. Now the real difficulty from the devellopment team is to make the job useful to the front, without making it too powerfull. Can you explain me what you mean by "they are not welcome?"

Finally, I don't know about you, but here is what I have to say to someone that is playing RDM, but complain about this update: I'll say that the person in question should shut it, there is no reason for a job to not get at least one update after almost 6 years, no matter how powerfull that job is!

[Spider-Dan]

You and I must not be playing the same game, especially if that last sentence applies to NIN as well.

NIN *was* one of the best jobs in the game. It's been consigned to mediocrity quite thoroughly by PLD and 2h updates.

And by "consigned to mediocrity," you mean that instead of being "clearly the best tank on virtually everything" and "top 3 merit DD with marginal effort", it is now "maybe slightly inferior but still awesome tank" (compare: NIN tank to any job not named PLD) and "requires actual effort to parse competitively in merit" (as well as "amazingly great soloist as NIN/DNC").

But I will agree that it is fair to say that NIN is not the master-of-all-trades that it once was. That being said, I still think that NIN should cheer every update that doesn't contain another Utsusemi nerf (PLD/NIN is not helping).

[Tempyst]

And by "consigned to mediocrity," you mean that instead of being "clearly the best tank on virtually everything" and "top 3 merit DD with marginal effort", it is now "maybe slightly inferior but still awesome tank" (compare: NIN tank to any job not named PLD) and "requires actual effort to parse competitively in merit" (as well as "amazingly great soloist as NIN/DNC").

But I will agree that it is fair to say that NIN is not the master-of-all-trades that it once was. That being said, I still think that NIN should cheer every update that doesn't contain another Utsusemi nerf (PLD/NIN is not helping).

I like having a top geared NIN in my merit parties, lot of WARs either suck at voking mobs that come in off the bard or get wrecked too fast for my liking

That said, a NIN buff wouldn't be out of place but NIN is still capable of tanking everything they used to, just because PLD is nearly effortless now doesn't invalidate it entirely

[Spider-Dan]

[blah blah convert refresh cure4 not broken]

You missed the point. The point is not that RDM is broken. The point is that if Squenix wants to make WHM the number-one choice for healer, they can either buff WHM or nerf RDM (via any of the methods I mentioned). Be happy that they chose the former.

As far as your demand thing, this game has ebbed and flowed over the past six years. Redmage is consistently useful, but over the years i have seen many different needs/ desires for pt's ranging from manaburn, to rng burn, to 2h weapon user becoming incredibly desired.

So basically, RDM is so good at so many different things that even in drastically changing conditions, RDM is still a top choice. Check.

You will not see anyone saying "WE MUST HAVE A RDM" in exp nowadays, there are too many different setups that are effective, so your whole point is blown.

Are you joking? Ask any pickup WHM or SCH if RDM is still the preferred option for exp healer.

The point isn't that RDM needs to be buffed, it's that if we get an update make it useful and not something REDMAGE'S are not interested in.

If the only thing that you are "interested in" is "ways to make my already-superior job even more superior," then I think you have more disappointment coming in your future. You're like a MNK that is upset because this update gave you Footwork instead of Berserk.

[Melios]

Magical BP are subject to resist, just like physical BP are subject to missing (variably). Physical can crit, magical can MB. But in situations where you can melee for TP to SC, do you really bring SMN? That's why I've had the steady focus on the physical side of things (and it lends itself best to my job list.) I do plan on eventually capping my smn Tier2 merits, and I'll enjoy this change when I do

They really should give L70 bloodpacts skillchain properties.

[Kerberoz]

Are you joking? Ask any pickup WHM or SCH if RDM is still the preferred option for exp healer.

lolSCH in merits. No haste gtfo.

Your problem is the bolded though. Pickup parties will always suck. WHM can heal merits just as well as RDM, and will be even better after the patch.

[Nattack]

lolSCH in merits. No haste gtfo.

Your problem is the bolded though. Pickup parties will always suck. WHM can heal merits just as well as RDM, and will be even better after the patch.

sad but true, i rarely get meripo's where the rdm or whm hastes. I've had mainhealing smn's who could do it better.

I must have the worst record ever...

[Spider-Dan]

Your problem is the bolded though. Pickup parties will always suck. WHM can heal merits just as well as RDM, and will be even better after the patch.

No, actually I used that word for a reason.

I can merit with an LS BST because I know that that particular person knows WTF they are doing and is good at their job. Similarly, I can merit with an LS WHM for the same reason.

Am I going to invite a pickup WHM and roll the dice when a pickup RDM has to actively try to fail in order not to fill the role I need? Hellz no. RDM healing is easy mode, and that is precisely why they get invites over WHM (today): it's harder to fail.

Non-pickup parties frankly don't count, because you'll invite all sorts of jobs from people you know (PLD, THF, etc.) when there's no way in hell that you would invite that job without prior knowledge. When you don't have the benefit of player foreknowledge, you go with the safest and easiest choice, and this is one of the major advantages RDM enjoys.

[Amastacia]

And by "consigned to mediocrity," you mean that instead of being "clearly the best tank on virtually everything" and "top 3 merit DD with marginal effort", it is now "maybe slightly inferior but still awesome tank" (compare: NIN tank to any job not named PLD) and "requires actual effort to parse competitively in merit" (as well as "amazingly great soloist as NIN/DNC").

But I will agree that it is fair to say that NIN is not the master-of-all-trades that it once was. That being said, I still think that NIN should cheer every update that doesn't contain another Utsusemi nerf (PLD/NIN is not helping).

Slightly inferior to PLD is all the reason anyone needs not to use it for tanking. PLD makes this game effortless, and every single shell I know of uses PLD tanks exclusively, or in conjunction with RDM/NIN in rare circumstances.

It has effectively become the tank of last resort, used when no one with PLD leveled is available (which, given how many people have leveled it of late, is basically never).

Anyone who can parse competitively in merit could level WAR or SAM, take all of the top-notch gear they must've accumulated for NIN to even be in the same league as 2h DDs, and be absolute monsters.

And shockingly, judging by a lot of the people QQing in this thread, a large part of the game population doesn't play MMOs to solo. They actually, you know, indulge in and prefer the multiplayer aspects.

If we wanted to play a Massively Singleplayer Online RPG with the option of doing some group content or raiding at endgame, we could go play WoW. I don't mind being able to solo well on NIN, but I still find it funny that solo is brought up as making a job overpowered in a game which forces cooperation for most everything.

[Spider-Dan]

Slightly inferior to PLD is all the reason anyone needs not to use it for tanking. PLD makes this game effortless, and every single shell I know of uses PLD tanks exclusively, or in conjunction with RDM/NIN in rare circumstances.

That's funny, because we use NIN/DRK on pretty much anything that we use PLD/NIN on.

It has effectively become the tank of last resort, used when no one with PLD leveled is available (which, given how many people have leveled it of late, is basically never).

Your mindset is somewhat strange to me.

1) NIN is capable and effective tank, PLD is pretty weak in comparison
2) PLD is megabuffed and surpasses NIN
3) NIN is now useless and incompetent?

This is not like comparing DDs, where DD job adjustments mean that DWing 1hers give you 20k/hr and 2hers give you 25k/hr. If NIN was capable of safely tanking a timely kill before, buffing PLD does not somehow erase that.

By your logic, if they toss some crazy buff to NIN tomorrow (say, a fulltime stance that doubles enmity and halves movement speed), suddenly PLD becomes garbage.

Anyone who can parse competitively in merit could level WAR or SAM, take all of the top-notch gear they must've accumulated for NIN to even be in the same league as 2h DDs, and be absolute monsters.

What's your point? That NIN can't actually outdamage these jobs like they used to?

The fact that a "tank" job can be competitive (and accepted) in merit parties is nothing to be scoffed at. Just ask any PLD... or, better yet, ask the DDs (like BST and BLU and PUP) that can't even get into merit parties.

I don't mind being able to solo well on NIN, but I still find it funny that solo is brought up as making a job overpowered in a game which forces cooperation for most everything.

When a very limited selection of jobs are able to solo highly-competitive NMs (e.g. sky triggers), that's the kind of response you get.