Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

[Yugl]

Your problem is the bolded though. Pickup parties will always suck. WHM can heal merits just as well as RDM, and will be even better after the patch.

I don't know about you, but I get some damn good pick-up merit PTs when I want to. Maybe none of the good pick-up players want to PT with you.

Your mindset is somewhat strange to me.

That's not all that's strange.

[Spider-Dan]

That's not all that's strange.

So let me ask you this:

After WHM gets all these crazy buffs in the update, will this mean that RDM becomes useless as an exp healer?

[Amastacia]

Your mindset is somewhat strange to me.

1) NIN is capable and effective tank, PLD is pretty weak in comparison
2) PLD is megabuffed and surpasses NIN
3) NIN is now useless and incompetent?

This is not like comparing DDs, where DD job adjustments mean that DWing 1hers give you 20k/hr and 2hers give you 25k/hr. If NIN was capable of safely tanking a timely kill before, buffing PLD does not somehow erase that.

By your logic, if they toss some crazy buff to NIN tomorrow (say, a fulltime stance that doubles enmity and halves movement speed), suddenly PLD becomes garbage.

The critical difference in my mind is that NIN is every bit as capable as it ever has been at hate generation, but falls down in its astronomically higher reliance on support.

What really stuck NIN in a corner was how the buffs to PLD in combination with the rise of PLD/NIN made for a tank which mitigated damage as well or better, generated hate as well or better (though admittedly not as able to sit right at the hate cap), and eased the burden on the tank party.

We used to use NIN + PLD a lot, until it became painfully apparent there is pathetically little a NIN + PLD can do that two competent PLDs can't do better. Having the tank party healers there as status-cure bots and for the occasional clutch cure means you can take the best healers out of the tank party and let them do something more useful. Let the decent WHM sit in the tank party, and the really excellent WHM who is also really excellent at other jobs be one of them instead.

[Yugl]

So let me ask you this:

After WHM gets all these crazy buffs in the update, will this mean that RDM becomes useless as an exp healer?

How did we get from me saying that to WHM and RDMs as healers?

Edit: I was talking about your choice of words. Mindset? Who the hell says that?

[evilpaul]

That's funny, because we use NIN/DRK on pretty much anything that we use PLD/NIN on.

Well, somebody has to be.

What's your point? That NIN can't actually outdamage these jobs like they used to?

The fact that a "tank" job can be competitive (and accepted) in merit parties is nothing to be scoffed at. Just ask any PLD... or, better yet, ask the DDs (like BST and BLU and PUP) that can't even get into merit parties.

Coincidentally, all 1h weapon jobs.

NIN wasn't the best merit DD before the 2h patch, and is now at the bottom of the heap after it. Kind of messed up that a walmart 2h DD can outdamage a well-geared 1h DD.

When a very limited selection of jobs are able to solo highly-competitive NMs (e.g. sky triggers), that's the kind of response you get.

Dokumori and Archery to solo Olla? NIN isn't the job you see soloing Sky trigger NMs.

[Spider-Dan]

Coincidentally, all 1h weapon jobs.

More accurately, all 1h weapon DDs that can't fall back on "fulfilling a critical role for nearly every team activity in the game".

NIN wasn't the best merit DD before the 2h patch, and is now at the bottom of the heap after it.

And where is PLD on this heap?

The fact that NIN is even competitive with damage dealing jobs at DEALING DAMAGE is highly questionable. Back when NIN actually BEAT most of them, it was just f'ing broken.

Complaining that your tank job can no longer beat the majority of dedicated damage dealers is not exactly the most heartwrenching of issues.

Kind of messed up that a walmart 2h DD can outdamage a well-geared 1h DD.

I think it's a little more messed up that a TANK can outdamage a job whose sole purpose for existence is to deal damage.

Dokumori and Archery to solo Olla? NIN isn't the job you see soloing Sky trigger NMs.

I wasn't specifically talking about NIN... I was simply giving an example of how the act of soloing can be perceived as overpowered. NIN/DNC ain't RDM, but it's definitely one of the top solo jobs in the game.

[Spider-Dan]

We used to use NIN + PLD a lot, until it became painfully apparent there is pathetically little a NIN + PLD can do that two competent PLDs can't do better.

Jobs are not going to be perfectly equal. Just because PLD is now (arguably) a bit better than NIN, that does not mean that NIN is obsolete; NIN is still an excellent tank.

RDM will not instantly become useless as a healer after the WHM update. The existence of SAM does not mean that WAR and MNK and DRG are redundant and pointless.

[perdition]

You missed the point. The point is not that RDM is broken. The point is that if Squenix wants to make WHM the number-one choice for healer, they can either buff WHM or nerf RDM (via any of the methods I mentioned). Be happy that they chose the former.


So basically, RDM is so good at so many different things that even in drastically changing conditions, RDM is still a top choice. Check.

Lol, DID YOU MISS THE FUCKING POINT OF BEING A RDM?

jack of all trades, hello!, we are supposed to be good at different things DUH?
Furthermore RDM will be desired for all the reason's I mentioned earlier, it's not because the job needs a nerf. Your logic is all based on exp and merit pt's, not the entire scope of what RDM, or WHM will be asked to do. At the end of the day, RDM AND WHM will be fine because they both are desired at HNM. Whm kicks the shit out of rdm when it comes to healing in HNM.

Merit pt's vary depending on the person who starts the pt's flavor. In the big picture these abilities are really marginal at best, but since your vision is so shallow, I won't put out such grandiose concepts.

Are you joking? Ask any pickup WHM or SCH if RDM is still the preferred option for exp healer.


If the only thing that you are "interested in" is "ways to make my already-superior job even more superior," then I think you have more disappointment coming in your future. You're like a MNK that is upset because this update gave you Footwork instead of Berserk.

Not about being superior, it's about being more functional, I have already stated this before. The one thing we stand out at is enfeebling, in a world where HNM are becoming more and more resistant to our abilities, it would be nice to see something that makes us capable of fulfilling our intended role. As I said above, your entire logic is measured by the world of merits, which is just a segment of the game, and can honestly be totally skipped since the advent of campaign. I honestly am not concerned about merit pt's because at the end of the day, if the pt is pickup and a rdm is not seeking, they're gonna' grab some other job. Shit, some merit pt's don't even look for a rdm, they just want 2 brds and cor. It is what it is, and is a matter of personal taste.

No, actually I used that word for a reason.

I can merit with an LS BST because I know that that particular person knows WTF they are doing and is good at their job. Similarly, I can merit with an LS WHM for the same reason.

Am I going to invite a pickup WHM and roll the dice when a pickup RDM has to actively try to fail in order not to fill the role I need? Hellz no. RDM healing is easy mode, and that is precisely why they get invites over WHM (today): it's harder to fail.

Non-pickup parties frankly don't count, because you'll invite all sorts of jobs from people you know (PLD, THF, etc.) when there's no way in hell that you would invite that job without prior knowledge. When you don't have the benefit of player foreknowledge, you go with the safest and easiest choice, and this is one of the major advantages RDM enjoys.

Easy mode, is this where the rdm goes afk and has JA autoheal? I can't be blamed for perception, whm is built to heal if you choose to get a rdm over a whm, that is your personal choice, no matter what your flawed logic is. In a three backline setup the whm will get freshed regardless and still be able to fulfill it's function. Again, your entire logic is based on merits so I'm not even gonna' continue on.


I'mma spell it out one last time for you. Redmage would be better suited with enhancements to enfeebling. Redmage in merit's should not be wasting alot of mp enfeebling mobs, because they should die pretty fast. The Redmage population wanted to be better at enfeebling HNM, not meleeing. Enfeebling mobs is not an issue of merit's, or trying to be king of the hill, it is a matter of being more effective at the one thing that we can say we are the best at. After five years of doing the same thing, we want a change that will bring back some of the enjoyment to the job, and not make it all about refresh, haste, cycles. Whitemage was given cool abilities, which is why alot of the population is mad, because by comparison, our updates are lol at best.

This JA is situational at best, and serves to really put rdm up a shit creek at worse. I can see every rdm dinging 50 tossing it's mage gear, lining up with DD gear and try to burning blade the mob to death. As a direct result pt members will not get cured, refreshed, mobs will not get debuffed and the pt will suffer. The pt members will politely ask the rdm to go back to the back lines and we will be back to square one. The situation I just described WILL happen, and at that point we will be left with a situational JA that we will probably only use as a toy.

Sure, this JA could end up being useful, but what I really see happening is ppl telling you beforehand not to melee in exp, and at HNM at the very best allowing one rdm to melee, and that is only if the weakening of elements stacks with brd and ninja debuffs.

The update is going to happen, and nobody is complaining that we actually are getting a damn update, I'll likely have a blast with it In Campaign we are not happy because the JA could have been done so much better.

Can't keep arguing with the flawed logic of someone who is not even a RDM. You only see things from the outside, go lvl rdm and nin then come talk about the jobs as if you are an authority. I can say for sure that I won't speak in absolutes when it comes to a job I have not leveled. I can make cute commentary, but if a 5 year ninja with half a brain tells me the weaknesses of his job I'm not going to sit there and tell him he is completely wrong and since he get's merit's he should be happy. I'd just end up sounding like a player who is mad that he get's passed up in exp/merits for a more popular job.

It's ok, I been there I got PUP 75... Campaign is your friend.

[Izzy]

ITT: 20 post allafags come and QQ!

I remember a time when we didn't even humor dumb theories without concrete backup/evidence.

[Rionel]

Did a merit tonight... lots more tests:

WARNING, long picture ahead. Those are pretty much all the Meteor Strikes I did throughout the whole party. I believe there was one that did 600~ DMG against the WHM Mamool Ja, but I'm pretty sure that it had Shell before hand which would explain the lesser DMG.

5/5 Meteor Strike
4/5 Avatar Magic Attack Bonus

Spoiler: show

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...riketest02.jpg

And the comparison to the two Predator Claws I managed to squeeze in...

Spoiler: show

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...wcompare02.jpg

Obviously this isn't very fair to the Predator Claws, since I kinda only did two.

But considering the consistency and damage of Meteor Strike, I actually didn't want to use PD all that much!

And of course! I got my final Magic Attack Merit:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...riketest03.jpg

Woulda done more, but I need sleep. Those are about 240~250TP. As I expected, 1000+ DMG on all attempted though.

And for something a little interesting maybe:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...ivasleepga.jpg

It's surprisingly more accurate than I imagined.

[perdition]

ITT: 20 post allafags come and QQ!

I remember a time when we didn't even humor dumb theories without concrete backup/evidence.

If you are referring to me, I've been a member for a while. I just prefer to post in threads that take my interest. I remember when BG had the big kills, and all that stuff.

3000+ post doesn't make your opinion any more valid, it just means you have more time on your hands, or more interest in trying to correct someone else in a post lol.

Ppl can toss out names, and play the allacard, or talk about getting a GF and all them used up tired shit talk tactics. Or you can contribute to the discussion by posting some of your dumb theories, instead of QQ about someone else QQ

[Izzy]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...ivasleepga.jpg

hahahah, oh man that brings me back to 2004.

[Rionel]

When the COR has no more Light Shots, you do what you gotta do! ;o

In fact, I actually saved a DRG+THF duo in Mamool Ja Staging Point by sleeping a Stabler they accidently aggro'ed:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y23...versleepga.jpg

[Araelus]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/attac...1&d=1238569992

[Shin Volcano]

Jobs are not going to be perfectly equal. Just because PLD is now (arguably) a bit better than NIN, that does not mean that NIN is obsolete; NIN is still an excellent tank.

RDM will not instantly become useless as a healer after the WHM update. The existence of SAM does not mean that WAR and MNK and DRG are redundant and pointless.

I think this problem will always be here, SOme people are ignorant, or do not accept change and diffrent things, i had to spend 30 minutes one day convicing a merit pt leader that i can handle healing with very little resting as WHM instead of a rdm, they refused to realize that WHM is capable of doing it, all it takes a good understanding of how to manage MP and not comeplty retarded meele, i finnaly got thru to him and that pt went very well, and i didnt hear a single word about it after, never even ran into MP issues, then i had to do the same thing as SCH a month later, i always got the same ignorant response "Wtf? SCH can't haste that won't work" etc, i had to explain that not having haste isn't going to kill you.. thru enspells and the fact they weren't even taking much damage, proved to him other wise, i think we had chain 180ish that day if i remember right.

The point is in order for people to understand jobs can and do still work, you have to try to convince them, or the loljob will continue. i'm sure this update will put WHM back in the top healer line because in all honesty i think they did this to stop people complaning about SCH lol.

[perdition]

I think this problem will always be here, SOme people are ignorant, or do not accept change and diffrent things, i had to spend 30 minutes one day convicing a merit pt leader that i can handle healing with very little resting as WHM instead of a rdm, they refused to realize that WHM is capable of doing it, all it takes a good understanding of how to manage MP and not comeplty retarded meele, i finnaly got thru to him and that pt went very well, and i didnt hear a single word about it after, never even ran into MP issues, then i had to do the same thing as SCH a month later, i always got the same ignorant response "Wtf? SCH can't haste that won't work" etc, i had to explain that not having haste isn't going to kill you.. thru enspells and the fact they weren't even taking much damage, proved to him other wise, i think we had chain 180ish that day if i remember right.

The point is in order for people to understand jobs can and do still work, you have to try to convince them, or the loljob will continue. i'm sure this update will put WHM back in the top healer line because in all honesty i think they did this to stop people complaning about SCH lol.

I agree with what you are saying. A job can be as good as you want it to be, but 95% of the player base will still shun it because they never gave it a try and presumed that it won't work. This is a problem I encounter on Pup all the time. Much of the time, the problem isn't with the job, it's with the preconception that there is this Ultimate setup for merit pt's or exp pt's. Some job's are victims of this reality and others are beneficiaries of it. This is the way FFXI has been and likely always will be.

[Fridell]

People still think Ninjas fails at damage now after 2h buff, and that PLD/NIN is way better?

People still doesnt know Ninjas can keep up with Blackbelt MNKs with great gear (minus 5/5 Usukane), people still doesnt know how great NIN/DRK & PLD/NIN works as tanks together?
Just because other jobs have it easier to put out damage, and have it easier to tank with minimal support, and because ppl gets lazy in their comfortable roles, it doesnt mean every player does.
You cannot compare shitty geared Ninjas with shitty geared 2handers, 2handers have it way easier to do respectable damage while being gimpedm however, compare the ppl that actually make things matter and happen. Just an example that came to mind must be why Richardd's LS asked him to come NIN/DRK to tank over their Aegis PLDs etc.

[Spider-Dan]

jack of all trades, hello!, we are supposed to be good at different things DUH?

Isn't "reducing resistances through meleeing" a different thing?

You DON'T want to be "good at different things." You want to be the BEST at enfeebling (scratch that... you ALREADY ARE, but you want to be made even MORE superior than everyone else, so that RDM is absolutely required for everything, instead of just extremely useful).

Not about being superior, it's about being more functional, I have already stated this before. The one thing we stand out at is enfeebling, in a world where HNM are becoming more and more resistant to our abilities, it would be nice to see something that makes us capable of fulfilling our intended role.

Make up your mind.

If your argument is that RDM should be the supreme specialist master of enfeebling, are you prepared to trade away your ability to be a main healer to become just that?

Of course you are not; you are not interested in giving up a damn thing. You want to continue to be awesome main healer + required support for PLD + best enfeebler + best lockdown artist (chainstun) + best soloist. But you ALSO want to be an even better enfeebler too. Naturally.

[The Blackrose]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/attac...1&d=1238569992

Next thing I know, you're going to tell me you're Pocket Ninja.

And then the world is going to end.

[perdition]

Isn't "reducing resistances through meleeing" a different thing?

It really depends on how they execute it. It also depends on if these resistances stack with other job's that can do the exact same thing. If that is not the case, then the JA will not be all that useful.

You DON'T want to be "good at different things." You want to be the BEST at enfeebling (scratch that... you ALREADY ARE, but you want to be made even MORE superior than everyone else, so that RDM is absolutely required for everything, instead of just extremely useful).


Make up your mind.

That's not it. I've said many times before, Redmage can have all the enfeebling skill in the world, and still have serious difficulty doing what they do best, which is enfeeble. As a rdm, what I want is to become more effective at my job, Just as Whitemage is going to become more effective at it's job. It's not a matter of being superior, it's a matter of providing a job ability that will improve the job, and not be a situational toy.

If your argument is that RDM should be the supreme specialist master of enfeebling, are you prepared to trade away your ability to be a main healer to become just that?

I shouldn't have too, the purpose of the job essentially was to be a gap filler. Redmage is one of the original jobs in FFXI, and as that "jack of all trades" we do alot of things well. Redmage serves the role of a gap filler, and that is one of the reason's for why it is desired. The one gap I don't ever see Redmage filling, is the DD gap, we can't keep up with decently geared melee even if we wanted too. You are really under the false impression that Redmage does everything better than most mage jobs, that isn't even true. We are not a specialist at anything but enfeebling, and a generalist at everything else.

Of course you are not; you are not interested in giving up a damn thing. You want to continue to be awesome main healer + required support for PLD + best enfeebler + best lockdown artist (chainstun) + best soloist. But you ALSO want to be an even better enfeebler too. Naturally.

I can think of a better Main healer, that is getting better, it's called Whitemage. There are many support jobs that can help a Pld do better, Typically in a HNM tank Pt you may just see a Whm, Rdm, and Brd helping to make the Pld better, that's because that is the purpose of our job. I could bring up all the awesome shit Sch can do, but guess what, if Sch can't fill the role of a healer, they can just switch to black magic and be a part of the nuking pt. Corsair won't be bothered one bit, Cor will be in merit's and HNM and do damn good for that matter. On an endgame level Whm, Brd, Sch, cor will be fine, which leaves us with DNC complaining about not finding a spot in the ally because of RDM superiority?

As I said before, some jobs are victims of perception, I can't change that.

+ best lockdown artist (chainstun)

You cannot blame Redmage for being able to do something useful. That is like blaming a drk for being able to equip a Kraken club.

+ best soloist

You may wanna' look at what PLD/RDM can do, or Dnc/nin can do, or Sam/dnc can do, or nin/dnc can do. While not as flexible as RDM these jobs can solo some things that rdm can't. The jobs I previously mentioned are very impressive when it comes to solo, and RDM is not the only game in town anymore.

But you ALSO want to be an even better enfeebler too. Naturally.

Sure, because at the end of the day being a better enfeebler will make everyones life easier. The issue for me is not that we Deserve an update, it's that we are being given an update that looks like it won't be very useful. If you are going update RDM, provide them with something they are interested in. I don't know how many times I have to say this.

I can't help that all your perceptions are based on getting a merit pt, or your thought that RDM is somehow broken and needs a nerf. I also can't change the fact that Some jobs will be desired for different things. While this update may serve some use, I believe it will be marginal at best and to a degree could serve to promote a new wave of melee RDM who now feel empowered to do so at the cost of their PT.

Enjoy arguing with yourself from now on, I can't be bothered trying to convince you of anything. Just a waste of my time and yours.