Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

[Samuraiking]

Holy shit, it's like a Train wreck in here.

[Burrmanchu]

Ironic that you seem to view DNC's ineffectiveness as proving your point.

The reason why people don't get a DNC to hold Tiamat is because (surprise!) DNC is poorly-designed. The solution might be to give DNC a SCH- or WHM-like boost... but then you have RDMs (or maybe MNKs, or BRDs, or some other job that is already perfectly fine) bitching that they didn't get an upgrade.


This is among the worst arguments I've ever heard. By this logic, making WAR the best tank in the game would not step on NIN's toes (because WAR came first!) but would step on PLD's toes (because they came out the same day!). (I presume you are actually talking about FFXI and not Final Fantasy in general; the latter would make your statement incomprehensibly absurd.)

You do not determine which jobs' roles are being stepped on by their release date. The original 11 do not have some sort of magical claim to being More Important than the others.


Do you run around screaming that NIN is a capable tank IF YOU CANNOT GET A PLD?

How many events are there in this game where RDM CANNOT main heal effectively?


...are you seriously making the objection that you can't bring the necessary gear to an event where you already know you will need it?

You don't need to bring your nuking or healing or hMP gear to an event where your role is to melee the HNM with enspell while taking as little damage as possible.

Your complaint is essentially no different than saying that RDMs can't chainspell stun because "they don't normally sub DRK and you can't change subjobs once you're already there!" Sometimes, certain strategies require one to plan more than 5 minutes into the future.

jesus christ on a bicycle man, are you seriously retarded? I said DNC is poorly designed and thats why it sucks, you honestly just requoted me and then went on the offensive about it? L O fuggin L. You said that they were designed as a main healer specialty.. I totally treated you on that fact and you continue to pull the same retarded sh!t. Just to make this short because I'm as tired of it as others:
Is DNC a main healer? NO. It's POORLY DESIGNED.
Does RDM step on DNC's toes? NO. RDM was there to begin with, look up "Stepping on toes" somewhere FFS.
Do you determine which roles are "stepped on" by their release date? YES, that is the DEFINITION OF THE TERM.
How many events can RDM not MAIN heal effectively? A sh!tload. RDM can pass but it's a pain in the ass for all involved. Period.
Are you making objection blah blah gear you'll need? Dude gtfo seriously i have like 5 gear sets there's no f'in way i could bring it all.
You dont need to bring gear when you blah blah melee? ANSWER: I DONT WANT TO MELEE. EVER. FOR ANYTHING.

Thank you, good night, and god speed.

edit: sorry to anyone with a brain stem.

[rlas549]

At least it's not April 1 anymore. Because then it was hard to detect if people were being purposely moronic, if that is their nature, or if they are just trolls. At least now it's down to guessing between two.

[arus2001]

What gets me, though, is if RDM got a more magically inclined enfeebling buff, what does that actually do for those who don't fight the resistant HNMs and such? It'd be comparably useless as some claim the melee leanings since aside from Dia and maybe the occasional Sleep, people certainly don't give a shit about that enfeebling strength for EXP, which is an infinitely more common setting than mobs you may be fighting every 21+ hours.

While I can't say I dig the gimmick of the Enspells or the potentially underwhelming benefits of Composure, melee is something at least everyone can access if they try. And no, I don't mean by hitting the Job Change button in your Mog House. On the plus side, RDMs will have more inventory once the Token's released just in case situational melee gains a bit more acceptance.

[Septimus]

Holy shit, it took me forever to wade through this cluster-fuck of a thread. Here is the point that I should have made at first, but I was far too angry to make.

The biggest problem with RDM melee is the fact that they have to spend so damn much time casting spells that we don't get to swing our weapons- not just refresh, haste, phalanx on themselves but those spells on other people. So Square's "solution" is to increase the recast timer on all spells to increase the duration on enhancing spells that are only cast on yourself. (Not even the enhancing spells that you cast on other people.) OK, maybe we will be able to click off of Composure to keep the duration bonus on ourselves, but then we lose the accuracy bonus from it. (The second biggest problem with RDM melee.) Do we not see how this is a problem? And it still doesn't solve the problem of casting refresh/haste/phalanx on other people since there is no benefit from it with this JA.

So, in order to benefit the most from this JA, you have to have a RDM who has no responsibily casting anything except for self-buffs so he/she can keep up with those super-awesome longer buffs with the accuracy boost and have someone else keep up with the other buffs on the party. So, you are going to have to have your melee specialist RDM up front wacking Cerberus, Khimaira, Shijin, etc with a sword while having another RDM do the real RDM duties. (Since you would have to keep using Mystic Bloom to keep the Magical Evasion down and reapplying the tier II en-spells.) Not to mention needing a BRD and/or COR to give the RDM the appropriate buffs so that the RDM can actually hit the mobs. (Giving them all the free TP they can eat.) Now, is the magic accuracy down from Mystic Boon worth all of this production?

The other time that Composure would be useful is in merit parties where RDMs melee with someone else to handle all of the RDM's real duties, basically treating the RDM as a DD instead of a mage. Is this ever going to happen?

As for tier 2 en-spell, we will have to see if the damage is either huge or if it will hit for the inital attack of each dual wielding round before it can be considered useful for non-HNM functions. For HNM functions, we will have to see if the effect stacks with Threnodies (and is better than Ninjitsu) or is better than Threnodies and Ninjitsu combined. Also, we will have to see how often the effect is resisted. (Because I have trouble believing that they will let us put wind resistance down on Kirin with Enstone II.)

And the best way to nerf RDM isn't to take anything from the job, it would be to give Refresh and Haste to Scholar. If that ever happened, the job would truly lack all purpose. (Except to be an inferior tank compared to PLD and NIN.)

[Isiolia]

(Since you would have to keep using Mystic Bloom to keep the Magical Evasion down and reapplying the tier II en-spells.) Not to mention needing a BRD and/or COR to give the RDM the appropriate buffs so that the RDM can actually hit the mobs. (Giving them all the free TP they can eat.) Now, is the magic accuracy down from Mystic Boon worth all of this production?

*Death Blossom

I somewhat doubt it, but I haven't tested it on everything. It doesn't erase true immunities like Sleep on skeletons, and it didn't help much at all on Omega that I could tell (still no Gravity sticking, etc), but I didn't do -that- much testing.

I'm still hoping that Composure is a Magic Accuracy boost and not (or not just) a melee Accuracy boost. To me, it'd actually make sense as both a back and front line JA were that the case.

[Onorgul]

Now, is the magic accuracy down from Mystic Boon worth all of this production?

Death Blossom

[Ultimagi]

So, in order to benefit the most from this JA, you have to have a RDM who has no responsibily casting anything except for self-buffs so he/she can keep up with those super-awesome longer buffs with the accuracy boost and have someone else keep up with the other buffs on the party. So, you are going to have to have your melee specialist RDM up front wacking Cerberus, Khimaira, Shijin, etc with a sword while having another RDM do the real RDM duties.

Sounds like a situation where the Red Mage is tanking... Also applies to solo situations.

Mystic Bloom...Mystic Boon

The Red Mage mythic weapon skill is Death Blossom.

The other time that Composure would be useful is in merit parties where RDMs melee with someone else to handle all of the RDM's real duties, basically treating the RDM as a DD instead of a mage. Is this ever going to happen?

You can't keep 1 Refresh and 3 Hastes on with increased recast times? If you have to cast Haste on yourself as well, and maybe Refresh on your support, that's still only 2 Refresh and 4 Hastes. Even if the recast time is doubled, this is not hard to keep up with. Not to mention the amount of damage the main healer could add to a merit party by meleeing at only a minor inconvenience to a possible Corsair support, since a Bard has Pianissimo. If the Corsair has to /poke you once every 3 minutes to give you Evoker's Roll, I'd say their job is easy enough as it is, that they can suck it up. Death Blossom opens Light, Darkness, and Distortion, covering most weapon skills. This makes opening a battle with Death Blossom easily pin hate on the next melee to use a weapon skill better than Provoke.

You sound like a very lazy Red Mage to me.

Edit: beaten to it, twice!

[Shinta]

You don't get the joke? Mystic Bloom .......... flowers bloom. Yeah, he typed Boon the second time and messed it up, oh well.

[Seraph]

C-C-C-Combo Whoosh!

[Milton]

all this thread needs now is for Urat and AbsoluteVirtue to come along and collaborate with Ultimagi on ways to duo AV as meleetank RDM and ddkite DNC.

[Septimus]

C-C-C-Combo Whoosh!

Actually, not a whoosh. Can you guess which of the 5 mythic weapon skills that I have on my characters that I use the most? lol (Atum is a Mystic Boon machine in Campaign, I almost never go on Septimus's RDM anymore since I have been using it as a vehicle to level DRK.)

Sounds like a situation where the Red Mage is tanking... Also applies to solo situations.

Tanking would require you to have to click it off, if you can, for your shadow timers. If this is the case, you lose the accuracy bonus.

You can't keep 1 Refresh and 3 Hastes on with increased recast times? If you have to cast Haste on yourself as well, and maybe Refresh on your support, that's still only 2 Refresh and 4 Hastes. Even if the recast time is doubled, this is not hard to keep up with. Not to mention the amount of damage the main healer could add to a merit party by meleeing at only a minor inconvenience to a possible Corsair support, since a Bard has Pianissimo. If the Corsair has to /poke you once every 3 minutes to give you Evoker's Roll, I'd say their job is easy enough as it is, that they can suck it up. Death Blossom opens Light, Darkness, and Distortion, covering most weapon skills. This makes opening a battle with Death Blossom easily pin hate on the next melee to use a weapon skill better than Provoke.

You sound like a very lazy Red Mage to me.

Edit: beaten to it, twice!

I think that you are completely missing the point that I was making. It wasn't about being lazy, it was about maximizing the effect of the JA. Every spell that you cast is time spent not getting TP; if you are there to debuff the mob with Death Blossom, you need to spend time doing that. When I say a BRD and/or COR, I mean Madrigals and/or Hunter's Roll to ensure that you are maximizing your hit rate for HNMs that can be fairly evasive for real melee, let alone someone with a B sword skill and access to less accuracy gear.

The amount of damage that a RDM is going to add to a melee party is a pittance compared to a heavy DD. This is why RDMs main heal in merit parties instead of play DD in them. For example in Moblin Maze Mongers, I parsed Septimus (WAR/NIN) versus Atum (WHM/SCH) when I was doing some expirements concerning Adventuring Fellow runs. Septimus did 92.18% of the damage compared to Atumre's 7.82% of the damage on easy prey mobs. Granted, Atum was not built for damage, but he did have 19% haste in his gear, and he did use Mystic Boon instead of Hexastrike to help keep his MP pool healthy. But the point is that this was against Easy Prey mobs, with a higher base skill than RDM has.

OK, this expierment is going to be biased, why? Because Atum was dressed to do his job, to cast cure spells- had I put him on WHM/NIN with as much STR and Attack gear that I could squeeze into his slots and got him a relic club he could have performed better, but the point is he was there to do his job, to keep Septimus cured and status free. A RDM who is primarly adding on heaps of damage with his/her supreme meleeing powers isn't going to be paying attention to his job, keeping people cured, hasted, and status free. A RDM who is curing, hasting, and keeping people free from status effects is barely going to have time to swing a sword. If you want a mage job that does damage and can cure, level Blue Mage.

[Ultimagi]

Tanking would require you to have to click it off, if you can, for your shadow timers. If this is the case, you lose the accuracy bonus.

If you have to lose the accuracy bonus you would not have had anyway to gain increased duration on self buffs, so be it. However, some situations do allow Red Mage to tank with other subjobs like Warrior or Blue Mage.

This is why RDMs main heal in merit parties instead of play DD in them.

You're comparing a Red Mage against a melee in the same party slot. I'm comparing a Red Mage who sits on his ass between Hastes and Cures against one that melees in that time. The damage dealt by the Red Mage is a pure increase, since it didn't exist before.

[Seraph]

Actually, not a whoosh. Can you guess which of the 5 mythic weapon skills that I have on my characters that I use the most? lol

And I chuckled quite hard at Mystic Bloom too. :-/

[Izzy]

I have a pretty good deal of experience with meeling for "extra damage" while trying to do my basic job functions, and I do have to say that I'm much more focused on doing actual WHM things when I'm not meeling. Aside from hasting/curing, I can't do much else while I'm meeling. Applying the same ideas to RDM, who should have WAY more things to do than a WHM, I can't really see how a RDM could keep up with everything they should be doing and meeling at the same time unless you plan on half-assing your basic job functions.

[Seraph]

I have a pretty good deal of experience with meeling for "extra damage" while trying to do my basic job functions, and I do have to say that I'm much more focused on doing actual WHM things when I'm not meeling. Aside from hasting/curing, I can't do much else while I'm meeling. Applying the same ideas to RDM, who should have WAY more things to do than a WHM, I can't really see how a RDM could keep up with everything they should be doing and meeling at the same time unless you plan on half-assing your basic job functions.

I could see a really competent player be able to keep up with everything RDM or WHM dependent while meleeing except for resting MP. In addition, doing your job correctly would also require you to cast over swinging which would make your DoT drop into the toilet. These two things make it extremely unrealistic, and too much effort for most mages who want to not suck.

Edit: This also assumes the mobs would even be mage-melee friendly. AoEs and the like would completely ruin things as well.

[Ultimagi]

It largely depends on the capabilities of your party members. Keeping Refresh on myself, Haste on 3 melees, and occasionally tossing a Cure doesn't take a lot of time or effort. Once the initial round of Greater Colibri have run out, I usually stop using Dia III if the fights are too short for the pulling to keep up. By then the party is going smoothly enough that you don't really have that much else to do.

[Mizango]

Holy shit, it's like a Train wreck in here.

Exactly what I was thinking.....


Izzypoo, lets rock on some 360 tonight!

[Izzy]

In addition, doing your job correctly would also require you to cast over swinging which would make your DoT drop into the toilet. These two things make it extremely unrealistic, and too much effort for most mages who want to not suck.

This is what I was getting at. I can haste every party member, regen a couple people and keep HP above yellow at all times, but this would basically rip my DoT and thus, my MP I get back from using Mystic Boon. It's almost not even worth it at that point.

I don't know if I have any games that you have Miz! I bought Halo 3, but I suck at it! lol

[Arkanna]

Sept and Izzy are 100% right, there's no way a RDM can keep up with his magely duties and still swing a fuckin sword at mobs. The sooner the idiot masses realize this, the sooner we begin the healing process for melee RDM's and get them back where they belong, on the back line, wielding staves and possibly INT/MND clubs/shields.

Melee'ing has its time and place, and it's not in a merit party or any other, more serious party setting.