Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

[Karbuncle]

Sorry but the enspells II is not some kind of a enfeebling adjustment? And RDM have a A+ in enfeebling skills, what other kind of "enfeebling adjustments" you wanted SE to do? lowering the monsters resistance to enfeeb over time? This is not possible because it will completely go against their previous adjustments long ago where they decided to make mob resist enfeebling magic over time. Please explain me what kind of adjustment you wanted SE to do. The enspells II are an enfeebling adjustment, and you can see them as some kind of "staff-sword". I want you to explain me what kind of adjustment you wanted SE to do please, when RDM have A+ in enfeebling magic skills.

I don't know for sure what he meant, but i'm guessing its along the lines of the fact most of the newer HNM's being introduced, and some old ones, Are almost 100% Immune to every form, or at least MOST forms, of Debuffs a RDM can toss, and if they aren't immune, It requires Elemental Seal to land.

Slow, Paralyze, Blind, Gravity, Bind, Sleep, Silence, etc, all of them Have a Powerful resistance if not Immunity to the majority of those Debuffs

No point to an A+ Skill if SE keeps making mobs that are immune to Debuffs, thus dooming a RDM's roll an any of those given fights, though limited albeit to Endgame, to Refresh Whore and Back-up healer.

But i'm no RDM so i don't know ~.~ Go back to your Melee Discussion cause i could be wrong

(I'm just happy the MMM NM's aren't immune ;\)

[SenseiFF11]

I don't know for sure what he meant, but i'm guessing its along the lines of the fact most of the newer HNM's being introduced, and some old ones, Are almost 100% Immune to every form, or at least MOST forms, of Debuffs a RDM can toss.

Slow, Paralyze, Blind, Gravity, Bind, Sleep, Silence, etc.

No point to an A+ Skill if SE keeps making mobs that are immune to Debuffs, thus dooming a RDM's roll an any of those given fights, though limited albeit to Endgame, to Refresh Whore and Back-up healer.

But i'm no RDM so i don't know ~.~ Go back to your Melee Discussion

(I'm just happy the MMM NM's aren't immune ;\)

Ha ok well that's maybe this. All I can say to people here is please let's wait and test those spells first. I know RDM's waited very long to obtain this update, maybe those spells and that JA are actually "worth" that long wait.(I hope).

[Karbuncle]

Ha ok well that's maybe this. All I can say to people here is please let's wait and test those spells first. I know RDM's waited very long to obtain this update, maybe those spells and that JA are actually "worth" that long wait.(I hope).

I Hope so too, truly i do if not just to make my brother happy he has something to play with while Duo'ing, But given the track record...i bet its going to be on par With Ancient Magic and Ninjutsu.

I'm more hoping it will Stack with Said Elemental Resistance Down, making it at the very least a viable strategy

[Septimus]

Ok I try to be nice here:
You should never put melee RDM in your BLM party, for it to work you will likely need Auspice effect from WHM because you don't want your melee RDM to feed crazy amount of TP to HNM. That's why the best spot to put your melee RDM is the tank party.

You also mention blm party of BLMx5+COR, COR can only play either wizard's or warlock's roll. Also you need COR for each BLM party. If you put a melee RDM in your tank party, COR can land Wizard's roll on BLM and the effect of enspell/DB boost ALL BLM's magic accuracy.

This is the part I was referring to. You obviously don't understand the impact of consistent elegy/RDM's debuff on tank party and the impact of magic evansion down effect on BLM's nuke in Wyrm's fight because you keep asking the same questions. Have you played tank jobs or BLM in those fight before? May be you should try.

All of this is build up on a house of assumptions. People are assuming that Auspice is going to cause a significant Subtle Blow effect. People are assuming that tier II en-spells will stack with Threnodies or replace them. People are assuming that the elemental resistance down effect on the tier II en-spells will not be subject to resists.

Please note that I didn't say 5 BLMs and a COR, I said 4 BLMs, BRD, and COR- this allows the COR to better target what Rolls to give- some combination of Evoker's, Wizard's, and Warlock's. The reason I mentioned putting a melee RDM in the BLM party is because you can have a BRD and COR in it, this means that the BRD can give the RDM Madrigals while the COR can give the RDM some combination of Monk's Roll (Subtle Blow), Hunter's Roll (Accuracy), and Samurai Roll (Store TP). HNMs are not easy to hit for people with A+ skills, the RDM is going to need all of the help that he/she can get.

Tanks can get consistent Elegy and Slow now, it just requires elemental seal. The important question is this: will depriving your tanks a second BRD or COR outweigh the potential (this is a big word here) ability to land Elegy and Slow without elemental seal? Having some BRDs sub BLM is a minor inconvenience at best; the BRD loses out on some Cure spells, other than that it does not change how BRD is played. Some RDMs (me included) prefer to sub BLM over WHM, the only potential sticking point is needing RDMs to sub DRK for stun. Most NMs that resist BLMs to the extent that you woukd absolutely need a RDM (assuming that the Death Blossom and tier II en-spell effect is as great as everyone hopes it will be) to melee are probably better off having SMNs as the main source of damage anyway since physical blood pacts will give more consistant damage, are nearly hate free, and give very little TP. (Not to mention the TP that the RDM isn't feeding it even with all of the Subtle Blow that you can load up.)

I keep asking the same questions because people don't want to answer them. So many people are so adamant that this is going to change the way that HNMs are fought, but no one wants to admit that these changes may not be actually better.

I don't know for sure what he meant, but i'm guessing its along the lines of the fact most of the newer HNM's being introduced, and some old ones, Are almost 100% Immune to every form, or at least MOST forms, of Debuffs a RDM can toss, and if they aren't immune, It requires Elemental Seal to land.

Slow, Paralyze, Blind, Gravity, Bind, Sleep, Silence, etc, all of them Have a Powerful resistance if not Immunity to the majority of those Debuffs

No point to an A+ Skill if SE keeps making mobs that are immune to Debuffs, thus dooming a RDM's roll an any of those given fights, though limited albeit to Endgame, to Refresh Whore and Back-up healer.

But i'm no RDM so i don't know ~.~ Go back to your Melee Discussion cause i could be wrong

(I'm just happy the MMM NM's aren't immune ;\)

No, you are entierly correct. This is my point.

[dejet]

Well, I am glad that you are not underestimating the power of tier II en-spells then.

It is simple party management. Will it make enough of a difference to replace a DD? For example: will a party set up of BRD RDM COR BLM BLM BLM be better than a set up of RDM COR BLM BLM BLM BLM- will the added support (ballads) allow the three BLMs to do more damage than 4 BLMs.

The whole thing about Death Blossom and tier II en-spells breaks down like this:

With the manaburn example- will adding a melee RDM to help lower reists have enough of an effect to offset the potential damage lost from another BLM? Or will the potential benefit from landing enfeebles justify not having two Bards to give the tanks full Ballad and March? This is the question that people are failing to ask- people are hoping that there will be a difference, but even if there is a difference will it be large enough to justify special party set-ups. If it does, that's fantastic, I have some great melee gear for my RDM thanks to my WAR and DRK. If it does not, there goes our shot at a RDM buff until 2014.

gasp you always have 5 blm or the great set up of cor/bards? even if it is not as great as we want it could help in ways.

maybe in the perfect set up it wont do anything but you never found yourself with 3 blm, 3 rdm? or something where you dont *need* that extra rdm? at least with me we always have an extra rdm(mostly because i have a 2nd account that has no other jobs) so this could help me anyways^^

[Ahlah]

It doesn't really matter what your BLM party setup is, as long as your melee RDM is in tank party, enspell/DB will always benefit ALL BLMs where they are getting both Warlock/Wizard's rolls or not. To be honest if you have the luxury of COR in every single BLM party, it's better to just put 5 BLM + COR (evoker's and wizard's roll) and your melee RDM will provide the magic accuracy.

Yes I agree it's all based on assumption. Hard to imagine it's a coincidence SE introduce Auspice/enspell/compsure all in the same update, enspell II dat files have been present for a while, it seems that SE already have plan for RDM long time ago and that's probably why Death Blossom can open both light/dark skillchain and Murgleis aftermath effect boosts magic accuracy.

I am not saying melee RDM is definitely going to work. Just want to point out it's a clever way to put melee RDM to good use.

To answer your questions:
Slow II effect is based on merit and MND difference. I can't remember the exact number I think it's about 15-20% slow effect. Advacing march cap at 9% haste. Basically it's the difference between 15-20% slow effect vs 9% haste and ballad I. On top of that your BRD can sub WHM for status cure and land threnodies. RDM can land paralyze. Overall it's probably worth replacing a 2nd BRD with a melee RDM provided enspell/DB is good enough to replace elemental seal.

regarding Wyrm fight, I can't quote the exact figure but I will say you will be lucky to see 3 out of 10 unresisted thunderIV on Tiamat, and the degree of resistance varies greatly (10-70%), even for BLMs with the best gear.

[Ultimagi]

Keep in mind I am not supporting Red Mages meleeing under any circumstance other than in endgame situations, with proper equipment, skill, and Death Blossom.

Support Red Mage : Free extra MP from self Refresh.
Tank or Solo Red Mage : More efficient self buffs, full time Accuracy Bonus if penalty to Utsusemi is not an issue, and the ability to maintain a reduced resistance to a particular, variable, element whenever required.
Merit Party Red Mage : Free extra MP from self Refresh, and the potential to introduce a new source of damage that was previously non-existent.

The problem most people are having with this is that they see Red Mage trying to replace a damage dealer. Obviously, a Red Mage can't keep up with the damage potential of having another damage dealer. However, the potential lies in the Red Mages we already use, the support, healer, or tank. With the tools Square-Enix is giving us in this update, these roles can be extended to provide extra functions to the battle.

[SenseiFF11]

No, you are entierly correct. This is my point.

fyi, Karbuncle was poiting Raineer comment, not yours.

[perdition]

Frankly I am surprised ppl are having difficulty figuring out the concept behind Composure.

RDM is already icredibly powerful. Adding spells/abilities to boost the accuracy of all magical attack and debuffs will only overpower the job. Let's assume Composure add signficant amout of melee accuracy, without recast penalty, it will make RDM tank more appealing and overpower solo RDM (ceremonial dagger + enspell). The last thing SE want to see is RDM replacing PLD as 2nd tank or solo RDM becoming more powerful than it already was.

ITT: The usage of Composure has been discussed relating to HNM and Exp. People have already mentioned the downside, and upside of no penalty to casting times. As far as tanking goes, as a previous poster already mentioned, RDM tanking is not based on how much you hit the mob, so composure is not going to make you anymore effective, or desired as a tank. Rdm don't get hate by slashing the mob. As far as solo goes, yea composure with no recast would break the job completely. I mentioned that I would not be disappointed if you screwed over timers for spells but added a fast cast bonus to all spells except utsusemi and stoneskin, that way it would actually be semi-viable to melee and fulfill your role in exp, or even while engaged with a hnm.

From the limited information released by SE, it seems that RDM has gained a new role in HNM fight, in order to make it work you will need 2 RDM in tank party, the melee RDM who focuses on lowering HNM magic evasion with enspell/death blossom (and throw in emergency cure/buff if the situation calls for it). Without Composure's recast penalty, a highly skilled RDM will be able to pull off melee + debuff + haste/refresh cycle with the help of Murgleis. It make sense to force players to adopt a tank party of 2 tank + melee RDM + mage RDM + WHM (for Auspice) which require good coordination among the players as a small price for the benefit of enspell/death blossom, assuming the effect of enspell/DB is good enough to replace elemental seal in HNM fight.

The two RDM concept has already been discussed, it doesn't take a genius to understand that by engaging the mob and weakening it, you essentially will become the setup man for another RDM.

Without Composure's recast penalty, a highly skilled RDM will be able to pull off melee + debuff + haste/refresh cycle with the help of Murgleis

Without composure's recast penalty?
But it has a recast penalty, and what % of the Rdm population currently is sporting Murgleis, or will ever sport Murgleis?

Frankly I am surprised ppl are having difficulty figuring out the concept behind Composure.

Most of what you have said had been covered in this thread, save for the stuff about the x2 rdm in tank PT. You are under impression that people don't get what it's going to be used for, it can serve a purpose at endgame, but that really remains to be seen, and is dependent on several factors that Sept may have already mentioned a few post back.

[Spider-Dan]

All of this is build up on a house of assumptions. People are assuming that Auspice is going to cause a significant Subtle Blow effect. People are assuming that tier II en-spells will stack with Threnodies or replace them. People are assuming that the elemental resistance down effect on the tier II en-spells will not be subject to resists.

Hasn't it already been shown that DB, by itself, can allow TAU HNM to be enfeebled without ES?

Seems to me that the ability to regularly land either of the following:

Death Blossom+Enaero2+Wind Threnody+Paralyze+Gravity+Blizzard nukes
or
Death Blossom+Enthunder2+Lightning Threnody+Slow+Elegy+Thunder nukes

...would make a loss of 1 slot in the alliance more than worth it. (Keep in mind that since melee RDM would essentially be self-sufficient, you can throw them in any party.)

Tanks can get consistent Elegy and Slow now, it just requires elemental seal. The important question is this: will depriving your tanks a second BRD or COR outweigh the potential (this is a big word here) ability to land Elegy and Slow without elemental seal?

Again, you keep spinning this as a loss of a support job. The bottom line is: pick the least valuable job in your alliance. Replace that person with melee RDM. Observe whether Composure+DB+Enspell2 is worth the loss of that slot.

[Tarage]

This is supposed to be advanced forum, everytime I post something slightly complicated it takes ages for ppl to figure out what I am trying to say.

90% of the RDM have never played solo or RDM tank, half of them know nothing about RDM game dynamics apart from refresh/haste cycle, and they get pissed because SE just added something which can potentially change the playstyle of endgame RDM instead of enspell with 40 additional damage that proc on multihit weapon so that they can bully some DC-EM mob with joytoy/justice sword.

Or could it be that people don't understand you because you're wrong and you are a fucking retard.

I think you're wrong and you are a fucking retard. Raise your hand if you think he isn't wrong and a fucking retard.

[Ahlah]

ITT: The usage of Composure has been discussed relating to HNM and Exp. People have already mentioned the downside, and upside of no penalty to casting times. As far as tanking goes, as a previous poster already mentioned, RDM tanking is not based on how much you hit the mob, so composure is not going to make you anymore effective, or desired as a tank. Rdm don't get hate by slashing the mob. As far as solo goes, yea composure with no recast would break the job completely. I mentioned that I would not be disappointed if you screwed over timers for spells but added a fast cast bonus to all spells except utsusemi and stoneskin, that way it would actually be semi-viable to melee and fulfill your role in exp, or even while engaged with a hnm.

Ok may be I should tone down a bit and be less sarcastic.

Hate is never an issue to RDM tank. Out of the 3 endgame tanks, RDM is capable of mainting both capped CE and VE consistently. It takes a while for RDM to build hate because the job doesn't have access to hate spike spell or JA (excluding chainspell) but once both CE and VE are capped RDM will only lose hate if they take damage. PLD has become the first choice for endgame tanking because the job has excellent survivalibity and offer more room for error. It's much harder for RDM to survive harsh TP moves. Without recast penalty, there will be more incentive to bring a RDM/NIN as 2nd tank since they will be able to debuff HNM and back up tank at the same time.

Same concept also applies to support RDM. A highly skilled RDM will be able to pull off melee + debuff + haste/refresh esp if he/she has Murgleis, which opens up a slot for 2nd BRD or COR in tank party. SE probably think it will overpower RDM and make endgame HNM easier to tank. That's why they introduce penalty recast to limt melee RDM to enspell/DB duties only and stop them from playing other standard support roles at the same time.

[Ahlah]

Or could it be that people don't understand you because you're wrong and you are a fucking retard.

I think you're wrong and you are a fucking retard. Raise your hand if you think he isn't wrong and a fucking retard.

I feel bad for ppl like you, go back to Kindergarten boy.

[Amastacia]

I feel bad for ppl like you, go back to Kindergarten boy.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Ahlah]

Pot, meet kettle.

Seriously are people supposed to post this kind of response on advanced forum? If you think my argument is flawed point it out. Childish replies like this get you nowhere.

[Amastacia]

People've been doing that for pages dude.

You just stick your fingers in your ears and say "lalalalalalaIcan'thearyoulalalalalala".

The insulting "I'm smarter/more mature than you" comments and passive-aggressive bullshit don't help your case either.

[Ultimagi]

I think I'll just enjoy my update and let the blind, lazy, and stupid cry in the corner in peace.

[Ahlah]

To Amatascia:
I am sorry if you are too retard to understand complicated information, take your little brain to other forum pls.

[Sylvrdragon]

To Amatascia:
I am sorry if you are too retard to understand complicated information, take your little brain to other forum pls.

Says the one who can't type a proper sentence? Oh, the ironing.

[Izzy]

To Amatascia:
I am sorry if you are too retard to understand complicated information, take your little brain to other forum pls.

How do I get infractions like crazy and this shit slides?