Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

[Amastacia]

How do I get infractions like crazy and this shit slides?

I'm a little surprised I haven't gotten any for fighting fire with fire (mods, please don't hurt me!).

Maybe they're taking it easy on me because I'm too retard to understand this complicated shit. Texas can't zap the mentally handicapped anymore, maybe the BG servers are hosted there?

[Sylvrdragon]

How do I get infractions like crazy and this shit slides?

Advanced vs Standard most likely. Mostly anything goes here as long as it's potentially amusing.

Something that occurred to me; If you're going to let a RDM melee for Enspell II and to build TP for Death Blossom (No easy task making a RDM hit for more than 0 on HNM), then how is that different from letting a DNC melee and use Stutter Step? If you let RDMs do it, then expect DNCs to be standing right behind them bitching for an alliance spot.

Is DB that much better than Stutter Step? Kind of a kick to the nuts to DNC if you ask me, lol.

[Isiolia]

Hasn't it already been shown that DB, by itself, can allow TAU HNM to be enfeebled without ES?

Seems to me that the ability to regularly land either of the following:

Death Blossom+Enaero2+Wind Threnody+Paralyze+Gravity+Blizzard nukes
or
Death Blossom+Enthunder2+Lightning Threnody+Slow+Elegy+Thunder nukes

...would make a loss of 1 slot in the alliance more than worth it. (Keep in mind that since melee RDM would essentially be self-sufficient, you can throw them in any party.)

Got a link to specific testing or results? I've "heard" that DB got rid of immunities n' such. However, I personally went out and tried using it on EP skeletons and still had Sleep resisted 100% of the time, dispelling that notion.

I've also had things just "happen" to line up. For instance, Assassin's Drink in Nyzul...got one from a box, used it, and by chance happened to land Carnage Elegy first try on one of the ToAU bosses there. After that, I started snagging them from the box at the start on boss runs, until I realized...it was still getting resisted nearly every time with or without the Magic Accuracy boost. I'm sure the drink does something, but obviously not enough to guarantee much.

So it's kind of going on a lot of assumption and hearsay, unless there's some solid evidence backing it up.

As for En-II...I'm more inclined to think it'll be the same -30 that any Ninjitsu nuke or AM will net you. How many groups are sure to bring a NIN to toss those out for their casters?
How many are putting in a DNC to do Stutter Step?

Maybe it's a role that SE intends to be filled, spending a fight weakening a mob against elements/magic. More likely, HNMs will continue to be immune or nigh immune to the spells though.
Logically, RDMs are adding as much or more Enfeebling skill as BLMs do Elemental. Nukes aren't usually rendered as ineffective as enfeebling, yet they're still magic. So why assume it's simply that we need just that little bit more?

The RDM changes as a whole are hard to say yet though. Composure could add MAcc, and wind up being a very useful tool. Have to wait and see.

[Raineer]

I think I'll just enjoy my update and let the blind, lazy, and stupid cry in the corner in peace.

We've been waiting.

As to the more recent argument of bringing a RDM for -magic resistance, Isolia said it best:

How many groups are sure to bring a NIN to toss those out for their casters?

Exactly... Never see NIN (or /NIN) throw these out to benefit casters? I never have. The ability is already there and it isn't being used. Quite frankly I rarely see threnrodies used but that can be chalked up to bad bards / not caring.

All these benefits are available and people aren't using them. It took over a year of trying to convince people to try a fire build on Tiamat, and then someone did and it was awesome. I could see this going the same way.

[SephYuyX]

Seriously are people supposed to post this kind of response on advanced forum? If you think my argument is flawed point it out. Childish replies get you nowhere.

I feel bad for ppl like you, go back to Kindergarten boy.

I am sorry if you are too retard to understand complicated information, take your little brain to other forum pls.

Huh, I guess that means youre no longer welcome.

[Xno Kappa]

This actually makes me want to take the time to learn Death Blossom on RDM lol, Vorpal Sword's been collecting dust in my MH.

[Ahlah]

As for En-II...I'm more inclined to think it'll be the same -30 that any Ninjitsu nuke or AM will net you. How many groups are sure to bring a NIN to toss those out for their casters?
How many are putting in a DNC to do Stutter Step?

There is a huge difference between NIN and RDM when it comes to magic debuff. Unless your NIN is tanking, Ninjitsu alone does not justify sacrificing a party slot for limited elemental resistance down effect. Whereas RDM has Death Blossom on top of enspell. Stutter step is a decent concept, unfortunately DNC just don't have the right weapon and accuracy to power it. Daggers have the lowest base damage in this game (with the exception of mythic?), which means they are more likely to hit for 0 damage. Also step accuracy is affected by DNC's physical accuracy. Whereas RDM have access to multihit weapon with decent base damage and soon Composure to boost their accuracy. Death Blossom is a 3 hit weaponskill which make it less likely to miss completely. Even when RDM is hitting 0 enspell effect still proc. The job is also highly self-sufficient and does not require external cure when the player takes damage from AOE or spell.

It's really frustrating to argue with RDM who don't know the difference between endgame tanks because they have never played those jobs before or try to explain the potential impact of these updates on jobs other than RDM.

[Gergall]

Exactly... Never see NIN (or /NIN) throw these out to benefit casters? I never have. The ability is already there and it isn't being used. Quite frankly I rarely see threnrodies used but that can be chalked up to bad bards / not caring.

Threnodies are usually resisted by HNMs because the one you want to use is generally impossible to land. Lets use Kirin as an example.

Kirin is based on stone, so he is naturally weak to wind. We want to make him even weaker to wind, right? Wind Threnody is a stone-based spell, so it can't be landed on Kirin. Similarly, you cannot land Water Threnody on Tiamat because water threnody is based on fire, and so on.

En-spell IIs are the same. The example given in the teaser is that you would need to use Enfire II to make a Tiamat weaker to water.

Of course, you could pick random neutral elements, and make Kirin weaker to ice and Tiamat weaker to thunder. Sometimes this is beneficial, but often it's a waste of time.

[Sylvrdragon]

There is a huge difference between NIN and RDM when it comes to magic debuff. Unless your NIN is tanking, Ninjitsu alone does not justify sacrificing a party slot for limited elemental resistance down effect. Whereas RDM has Death Blossom on top of enspell. Stutter step is a decent concept, unfortunately DNC just don't have the right weapon and accuracy to power it. Daggers have the lowest base damage in this game (with the exception of mythic?), which means they are more likely to hit for 0 damage. Also step accuracy is affected by DNC's physical accuracy. Whereas RDM have access to multihit weapon with decent base damage and soon Composure to boost their accuracy. Death Blossom is a 3 hit weaponskill which make it less likely to miss completely. Even when RDM is hitting 0 enspell effect still proc. The job is also highly self-sufficient and does not require external cure when the player takes damage from AOE or spell.

It's really frustrating to argue with RDM who don't know the difference between endgame tanks because they have never played those jobs before or try to explain the potential impact of these updates on jobs other than RDM.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...d5/Joyeuse.png
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...escription.png

Also, you can't say Enspell II is fine cause it procs on 0 hits, cause then you're discarding half of your argument. It isn't Enspell OR Death Blossom vs Stutter Step, it's BOTH. Also, Steps have like 12 second recast, so bitching about the ACC of them is pointless. Not to mention, they have gear that enhances Step Accuracy and access to every bit as much ACC gear as a RDM, if not more.

Furthermore, I'm fairly certain that the /NIN using Ichi lowers resist by the same as a NIN Main using Ni. As such, you don't need to replace anyone for a NIN. Hell, the tank could cast these if they really wanted to.

Had you argued the validity of Death Blossom as opening Light for Atonement or Kasha, then you might have had a point, but you didn't, so you don't.

Lastly, you seem to be Assuming that people don't ALREADY keep Slow/Elegy on mobs full time regardless of the necessity of ES.

Please eliminate your biases before trying to debate; especially on the internet.

[Isiolia]

There is a huge difference between NIN and RDM when it comes to magic debuff. Unless your NIN is tanking, Ninjitsu alone does not justify sacrificing a party slot for limited elemental resistance down effect.

Perhaps, but look at it from the point of view of precedent. It'd be one thing if we could say that people were using the -element aspect of Ninjitsu, AM, or even threnodies on a regular basis, use Death Blossom and/or Stutter Step now, and so on...but they typically don't.
So why jump to the conclusions that potentially combining the end result into one job, rather than two, will have it become the given thing to do? If it's -that- valuable, and -that- effective, then why isn't it being done now?

Stutter step is a decent concept, unfortunately DNC just don't have the right weapon and accuracy to power it. Daggers have the lowest base damage in this game (with the exception of mythic?), which means they are more likely to hit for 0 damage. Also step accuracy is affected by DNC's physical accuracy.

Azoth is 35 DMG. Joyeuse is 35 DMG. Justice Sword is 34 DMG. RDM can certainly use higher damage swords, but very few outside of the general range of higher damage daggers.

RDM has flat B rated accuracy. DNC has B+ dagger with Accuracy Bonus II, technically putting their base accuracy above A+ level. In addition, they have merits, AF, and Relic that specifically boost Step accuracy.

Remains to be seen what Composure does, but as things have been, DNC seems to have the edge here.

Death Blossom is a 3 hit weaponskill which make it less likely to miss completely. Even when RDM is hitting 0 enspell effect still proc. The job is also highly self-sufficient and does not require external cure when the player takes damage from AOE or spell.

3 hitter, sure, is more likely to connect. Of course, the Magic Evasion Down part of it isn't guaranteed, going by the WS description anyway. RDM is self-sufficient, sure, but a DNC could be too. A NIN can be backline to cast their stuff.

It's really frustrating to argue with RDM who don't know the difference between endgame tanks because they have never played those jobs before or try to explain the potential impact of these updates on jobs other than RDM.

Dunno if you mean me, but I have 75 NIN and PLD, and several other jobs. I've simply played RDM the longest (NA PC release, blah blah).


Point isn't that it -couldn't- happen, more that there's little logic behind assuming it will.

[Ahlah]

DNC have a base damage 35 dagger in one hand so what? Do you think they can keep up with RDM who can dualweild 2 multihit swords with similar base damage? And how many of those hits are likely to hit more than zero?

The difference between B and B+ is only 6 skills, Suppanomimi alone closes the difference seeing both job will wear it for enhace dualwield effect. And Composure will probably compensate for lack of accuracy bonus trait. An unlucky missed step can put DNC back to lv1 and completely defeat its purpose. Melee accuracy plays a huge part in DNC's debuff both in TP gain and actually landing the steps. Whereas RDM is capable of building TP at much faster rate, Death Blossom is less likely to miss completely and can potentially open both light/dark skillchain . On top of that RDM is constantly inflicting enspell II on HNM.

Compared to RDM, DNC is nowhere near self-suffcient, they need TP to cure themselve. take more magical damage compared to RDM and can't haste themselves to the level comparable to RDM.

There are significant defect in the design of ninjitsu and threnodies. It's true that all level of Ninjitsu have the same elemental resist down effect but they only last for relatively short period of time, ichi takes 4 secs to cast and only last for 8 secs. The window is so small it will require good coordination (imagine BLM casting AM2). The idea of getting /NIN to cast ichi is just plain stupid. With NIN main at least you have both Ni and San which both last long enough to make an impact. Most HNM have incredibly high resistance against threnodies, which ironically can be improved by enspell/DB.

Death Blossom magic evasion effect is guaranteed provided at least one hit is landed at least from experience until it's properly tested.

[Amastacia]

You're still going...

Oh, and

Exactly... Never see NIN (or /NIN) throw these out to benefit casters? I never have. The ability is already there and it isn't being used. Quite frankly I rarely see threnrodies used but that can be chalked up to bad bards / not caring.

All these benefits are available and people aren't using them. It took over a year of trying to convince people to try a fire build on Tiamat, and then someone did and it was awesome. I could see this going the same way.

I forget more often than I'd like to admit, but I try to bring tools for Suiton when I tank on NIN. Especially when the main damage source is BLMs.

Might not really do jack shit, but it certainly doesn't hurt to use.

[Raineer]

Death Blossom magic evasion effect is guaranteed provided at least one hit is landed at least from experience until it's properly tested.

One small bit of irony is that most of the posters in the thread are referring to the benefits of DB, when it's clear it hasn't been tested completely and most reports are anecdotal at best. At this rate we won't know much about the enspell 2's for weeks, especially what it stacks with and for how much.
We have to hope they work the same in ballista as on a normal mob, and also to hope we have a way of knowing if my swing+enspell2 on kirin/tia/whatever even added the -element effect at all.

[Raineer]

I forget more often than I'd like to admit, but I try to bring tools for Suiton when I tank on NIN. Especially when the main damage source is BLMs.

Might not really do jack shit, but it certainly doesn't hurt to use.

To expand on what I mean... Eventually you come to the point where you're relying on too many people to do too much. There are good shells which can pull off almost any setup because of good play, but even they have some inconsistent players.

As much as I love the design of what people are trying, at some point it's just too much support and too many variables. You need the NIN debuffs to stay on (100% ideally), steps to land and stay up all the time, the RDM to land his swings and somehow know that the effect is proccing, and the BRD to not have threnrodies resisted or to have them fall.

It's a hell of a lot of variables when you could just add a couple more SAMs on a melee fight or BLM's/SMN's for low-TP-given damage.

While they gave RDM something it certainly didn't have, if you're not using all these tools now what makes you think adding a second RDM to add the DB/EN2 debuffs just to support the caster RDM is a good idea?

[Ahlah]

While they gave RDM something it certainly didn't have, if you're not using all these tools now what makes you think adding a second RDM to add the DB/EN2 debuffs just to support the caster RDM is a good idea?

This is actually a very good point. EN2/DB is only worth the effort if the combination provides sufficient magic evasion down effect to allow RDM and BRD land debuffs on HNM without ES. The difference here is DB so far appears to be more superior than any other available options which have yet been reported to give similar results as DB. Unlike Threnodies and steps, it's relatively easier to inflict enspell effects on HNM and land DB than threnodies/steps.

I am not saying melee RDM is definitely going to work, in fact it can potentially make DNC more appealing since Stutter steps will alo enhance the effect of ENII/DB.

[Rionel]

The difference between B and B+ is only 6 skills, Suppanomimi alone closes the difference seeing both job will wear it for enhace dualwield effect. And Composure will probably compensate for lack of accuracy bonus trait. An unlucky missed step can put DNC back to lv1 and completely defeat its purpose. Melee accuracy plays a huge part in DNC's debuff both in TP gain and actually landing the steps. Whereas RDM is capable of building TP at much faster rate, Death Blossom is less likely to miss completely and can potentially open both light/dark skillchain . On top of that RDM is constantly inflicting enspell II on HNM.

Hm... let's say, for the sake of it:

RDM

250 Sword
8/8 Sword Merit +16 Sword (266)

Optical Hat +10 ACC
Peacock Charm 1+0 ACC (20)
Supanomimi +5 Sword (271)
Hollow Earring +4 ACC Total (24)

Pahluwan Khazagand +10 ACC (34)
Pahluwan Khazagand +5 ACC (38]
Snipers x2 +10 ACC (48]

Cuchulain's Mantle +7 ACC (55)
Life Belt +10 ACC (65)
Pahluwan Seraweels +4 ACC [69]
Pahluwan Crackows +3 ACC (73)

Total
Sword 271 + 73 ACC + Composure ACC?

===

DNC

256 Dagger
8/8 Dagger +16 (272 Dagger)

Azoth +4 ACC [4]
Black Tathlum +4 ACC [8]

Optical Hat +10 ACC [18]
Peacock Charm +10 ACC [28]

Etoile Casque +12 ACC Total [40]
Enkidu's Mittens +7 ACC Total [47]
Snipers x2 +10 ACC [57]

Cuchlain's Mantle +7 ACC total [64]
Life Belt +10 ACC [74]
Dancer's Tights +1 +5 ACC [79]
Etoile Shoes +1 +7 ACC Total [86]

Accuracy Bonus Trait I + II +22 ACC [108]

Total
272 Dagger + 108 ACC

===

So you're got

271 Sword + 73 ACC
VS
272 Dagger + 108 ACC

That's a 35~ Accuracy difference, which is most definitely going to show a difference. Composure has to be at least +20-30 ACC for it to be on par with DNC. Not to mention the DNC probably has more access to STR and Attack gear to work with while maintaining a good ACC

I just wanted to show some hard numbers here.

[Raineer]

If I was *really* playing the melee RDM spot in order to be the EN2/DB whore, I'm subbing /RNG with Esword if I need that much accuracy.

[arus2001]

Part of me hopes the new Enspells are somehow tied to the weapon's damage rating so people don't abuse the Ceremonial Dagger or claim a nerf's deserved because of it. Nevermind you can't Death Blossom with it for all these little theoretical scenarios. Plus it'd open up the possibility of new swords taking the place of Joyeuse as the be all, end all solution of RDM weaponry. Not really looking to the Enhancing Sword becoming that weapon if it is the case, however. Bune's a stingy cock and I've never seen it drop the 10-20 times I've killed him.

[Colenzo]

are you guys seriously argueing over melee rdm? >_>

[Tarage]

I feel bad for ppl like you, go back to Kindergarten boy.

I feel sorry for mentally handicapped people like you. Go back to your assisted living center child.