Job Adjustments and Additions Part II (03/30/2009)

[Melios]

what ever happened to the old saying of "if its not broke dont fix it"
they coulda spent their time making instanced dynamis and instanced limbus instead of shoving barbwire down our cock holes and giving false hope to all these retarded ass RDMs that want to poke shit with their joyeuse

Well...you know, they probably were thrown off by all the complaints about AV, ground kings, and Cheese Sandwiches.

[Khamsin]

I haven't really paid attention to it before, but I'm guessing Endrain from DNC doesn't stack with RDM enspells, right?

[Shin Volcano]

Well...you know, they probably were thrown off by all the complaints about AV, ground kings, and Cheese Sandwiches.

Speaking of which........Cheese Sandwiches..where they a joke? or did they randomly pick a food out of a bowl and just toosed it in there with no effect..cause i honeslty don't see the point of even eating it, i'd rather my character starve o_O

and no, sambas overwrite enspells..

[Isiolia]

I haven't really paid attention to it before, but I'm guessing Endrain from DNC doesn't stack with RDM enspells, right?

They don't.

RDM/NIN dualwield 2 multihit sword will always outperform DNC/NIN in term of TP gain, even if RDM is only slightly behind in term of accuracy. It doesn't take a genius to understand RDM who land ~50% more hits than DNC are likely to gain more TP.

Are you accounting for the fact that Stutter Step only takes 10TP per attempt to do, whereas Death Blossom needs 100? Stacking it to level 5, at a 50% success rate, would still only use the same amount of TP as -one- Death Blossom.

DNC can also use Reverse Flourish to get back the TP used for (successful) steps and then some. After three successful connects (5 Finishing Moves, spending 30TP, ideally) they can turn around and get 60-75TP back (75 being fully merited Reverse Flourish).

They've also got No Foot Rise, if they merit it, which is a 3 minute JA that grants Finishing Moves...which could then be utilized for "free" TP in the same manner as Meditate.

For short bursts, they can also use Saber Dance, for at least a burst of TP gain on par with what the RDM would get.


RDM/NIN TP gain would be pretty solid if using Joy/Justice, sure. DNC isn't exactly stuck swinging a couple daggers for 100% TP to do Stutter Step though.

[Devolver]

Speaking of which........Cheese Sandwiches..where they a joke? or did they randomly pick a food out of a bowl and just toosed it in there with no effect..cause i honeslty don't see the point of even eating it, i'd rather my character starve o_O

I believe it was a fan service to someone who suggested it during a Q&A

[perdition]

what ever happened to the old saying of "if its not broke dont fix it"
they coulda spent their time making instanced dynamis and instanced limbus instead of shoving barbwire down our cock holes and giving false hope to all these retarded ass RDMs that want to poke shit with their joyeuse

Some are arguing that RDM is broken, even without the new JA.

And the RDM who have enough common sense to understand how meaningless this update could potentially be are simply saying that if you give us an update, make it something useful and that the community wants.

As far as instancing Dynamis or Limbus, if they were spending their time doing that, you'd be waiting till April 2011 for an update.

[Raineer]

Does Rng give subbable Acc bonus II?

/Dnc gives it's toolbox, /Drg gives lolrdmjumping, Acc, and haste earring/shield options.

FUCK, HOW DID I GET DRAWN INTO THE IDIOCY OF RDM MELEE THREAD LAND!

SHIT!

Seriously though, Rdm/Rng? Rdm/Nin + Joy/Justice while tanking maybe?

I mean, if a Rdm/Nin is gonna be tanking, and can land an enspell/death blossom for me to atonement off of (AND MAGIC BURST FLASH, CAUSE I FUCKING LOVE DOING THAT SINCE I NEVER GOT TO MB SHIT, HA HA! SUPERBLINDED!), cool shit?

I'm leveling mnk/drg right now and once drg is 37 i will have the joys of rdm/drg

edit: Actually it's rough to weigh another +12 accuracy against Jump/Haste (vs /NIN you're talking 22 accuracy). queue cuch mantle thread, I need a flowchart. The whole point of the accuracy debate is whether or not RDM will have enough accuracy to keep up their share of the debuffs on HNM since the -element/DB has to be on ALL THE TIME BECAUSE ITS OMG OVERPOWERED. Doubtful in tanking gear.

/welcome to the rdm melee thread

[Ahlah]

They don't.

Are you accounting for the fact that Stutter Step only takes 10TP per attempt to do, whereas Death Blossom needs 100? Stacking it to level 5, at a 50% success rate, would still only use the same amount of TP as -one- Death Blossom.

DNC can also use Reverse Flourish to get back the TP used for (successful) steps and then some. After three successful connects (5 Finishing Moves, spending 30TP, ideally) they can turn around and get 60-75TP back (75 being fully merited Reverse Flourish).

They've also got No Foot Rise, if they merit it, which is a 3 minute JA that grants Finishing Moves...which could then be utilized for "free" TP in the same manner as Meditate.

For short bursts, they can also use Saber Dance, for at least a burst of TP gain on par with what the RDM would get.


RDM/NIN TP gain would be pretty solid if using Joy/Justice, sure. DNC isn't exactly stuck swinging a couple daggers for 100% TP to do Stutter Step though.

As I said before, melee accuracy plays a huge part in DNC's debuff, 2 consecutive missed stutter step will put DNC back to level1. That means all the TP spent is going down the drain plus DNC lose 3-4 finishing moves which can potentially be turned into TP. Even if DNC manage to land 3 Stutter steps they only get back enough TP to use one Curing Waltz IV. Lv 5 No foot rise gives DNC 5 finishing moves every 3 mins again that's equivalent to one Curing Waltz IV every 3 mins.

Not only DNC is constantly struggling to get enough TP to perform Stutter steps which do not have the similar impact as DB (based on limited information), the job does not have the capacity to support other party members if the situation calls for it.

Quite frankly the whole argument is pointless. Even if DNC is capable of generating enough TP to land Stutter Step/samba/waltz it still has limited role in endgame battle because Stutter steps do not offer sufficient magic accuracy to replace elemental seal, it's doesn't make sense to let DNC feed TP to HNM since your BRD still need to sub BLM for elemental seal and RDM still can't land debuff reliably. In fact the concept of ENII/DB actually makes DNC more appealing assuming the effect of Stutter steps and DB stack.

Does Rng give subbable Acc bonus II?
/Dnc gives it's toolbox, /Drg gives lolrdmjumping, Acc, and haste earring/shield options.

FUCK, HOW DID I GET DRAWN INTO THE IDIOCY OF RDM MELEE THREAD LAND!

SHIT!

Seriously though, Rdm/Rng? Rdm/Nin + Joy/Justice while tanking maybe?

I mean, if a Rdm/Nin is gonna be tanking, and can land an enspell/death blossom for me to atonement off of (AND MAGIC BURST FLASH, CAUSE I FUCKING LOVE DOING THAT SINCE I NEVER GOT TO MB SHIT, HA HA! SUPERBLINDED!), cool shit?

RDM probably will need the accuracy boost from Composure which comes with recast penalty. The recast penalty basically prevents RDM from playing tank/support role at the same time to maintain game balance. Without recast penalty, there will be more incentive to use RDM/NIN as second tank since they can debuff HNM and back up tank at the same time.

Endrain doesn't stack with RDM's enspell.

Even when RDM is not tanking, NIN is probably still the best SJ. Utsusemi blocks some nasty TP moves (Khimaria's tourbillion, Cerberus' sulphorous breath etc) and allows RDM to dualwield 2 multihit swords. If utsusemi is not required, DNC is probably better which offers subtle blow and accuracy bonus trait, on top of that RDM/DNC has access to Quickstep and Desparate flourish which improves the melee accuracy of PLD and RDM, provided they can still land steps and flourish with DNC SJ.

[Talint]

As I said before, melee accuracy plays a huge part in DNC's debuff, 2 consecutive missed stutter step will put DNC back to level1. That means all the TP spent is going down the drain plus DNC lose 3-4 finishing moves which can potentially be turned into TP. Even if DNC manage to land 3 Stutter steps they only get back enough TP to use one Curing Waltz IV. Lv 5 No foot rise gives DNC 5 finishing moves every 3 mins again that's equivalent to one Curing Waltz IV every 3 mins.

Not only DNC is constantly struggling to get enough TP to perform Stutter steps which do not have the similar impact as DB (based on limited information), the job does not have the capacity to support other party members if the situation calls for it.

Quite frankly the whole argument is pointless. Even if DNC is capable of generating enough TP to land Stutter Step/samba/waltz it still has limited role in endgame battle because Stutter steps do not offer sufficient magic accuracy to replace elemental seal, it's doesn't make sense to let DNC feed TP to HNM since your BRD still need to sub BLM for elemental seal and RDM still can't land debuff reliably. In fact the concept of ENII/DB actually makes DNC more appealing assuming the effect of Stutter steps and DB stack.

Death Blossom and Stutter Step stack. All steps stack with other enfeebles because they are their own, unique type of enfeeble.

A level 5 Stutter Step is, arguably, 30% Magic Resist down.

Dancers should not be using 3 steps/5FMs before they Reverse Flourish. That's only a net gain of 30TP. 2 steps/4 finishing moves give a net gain of 28TP, and this is assuming that the DNC is unmerited. Fully merited, 4FMs will give a net gain of 43TP.

I do not struggle to gain TP on DNC, and my accuracy/TP gain is like that of every other one-handed weapon user. Probably slightly better since I can use Reverse Flourish and No Foot Rise.

I don't blame you for not knowing what DNC can do, since a lot of the playerbase doesn't either. But conversely don't act like you know what DNC can't do, please. It just makes you look silly.

[Ahlah]

Death Blossom and Stutter Step stack. All steps stack with other enfeebles because they are their own, unique type of enfeeble.

A level 5 Stutter Step is, arguably, 30% Magic Resist down.

Dancers should not be using 3 steps/5FMs before they Reverse Flourish. That's only a net gain of 30TP. 2 steps/4 finishing moves give a net gain of 28TP, and this is assuming that the DNC is unmerited. Fully merited, 4FMs will give a net gain of 43TP.

I do not struggle to gain TP on DNC, and my accuracy/TP gain is like that of every other one-handed weapon user. Probably slightly better since I can use Reverse Flourish and No Foot Rise.

I don't blame you for not knowing what DNC can do, since a lot of the playerbase doesn't either. But conversely don't act like you know what DNC can't do, please. It just makes you look silly.

You are saying you don't have problem gainin TP on DNC against HNM? If THF is having a hard time I can't imagine DNC doing better than THF. DNC need to be able to generate TP through melee hits in order to play the job to its full potential, just because you can rely on some JA to regain enough TP to perform stutter steps doesn't justify a slot in endgame battle.

[Rionel]

Oh! I completely forgot.

Closed Position 5/5 gives DNC a +15 ACC/EVA bonus when face to face with a monster they're engaged with. So my comparison before is actually:

RDM 271 Sword + 73 ACC
VS
DNC 272 Dagger + 123 ACC

That's a 50 ACC difference now.

So if the DNC got Flashed, it would have the same Accuracy as the RDM (I assume Flash is -40 to 50 ACC about, right? It's pretty potent).

[Thunder]

As I said before, melee accuracy plays a huge part in DNC's debuff, 2 consecutive missed stutter step will put DNC back to level1. That means all the TP spent is going down the drain plus DNC lose 3-4 finishing moves which can potentially be turned into TP. Even if DNC manage to land 3 Stutter steps they only get back enough TP to use one Curing Waltz IV. Lv 5 No foot rise gives DNC 5 finishing moves every 3 mins again that's equivalent to one Curing Waltz IV every 3 mins.

The dnc could /thf and half the chances of it(stutter step) missing and wearing off. +30% macc to all mages in the ally is totally worth a place in the ally, I think.

I also think that someone said that DB wears off ridiculously fast on HNM?

[Zilong]

Oh! I completely forgot.

Closed Position 5/5 gives DNC a +15 ACC/EVA bonus when face to face with a monster they're engaged with. So my comparison before is actually:

RDM 271 Sword + 73 ACC
VS
DNC 272 Dagger + 123 ACC

That's a 50 ACC difference now.

So if the DNC got Flashed, it would have the same Accuracy as the RDM (I assume Flash is -40 to 50 ACC about, right? It's pretty potent).

Depends on how much time have passed, the first few seconds just flat out floor your hitrate, then the next few afterward if it lasted that long might be that -40 or -50

I think it's more than that though, because 20-25% hitrate penalty seem too low for flash effect, but I really have no empyrical data to support it.

[Isiolia]

The dnc could /thf and half the chances of it(stutter step) missing and wearing off. +30% macc to all mages in the ally is totally worth a place in the ally, I think.

I also think that someone said that DB wears off ridiculously fast on HNM?

On easy stuff like Campaign mobs, DB's effect wears off more or less in time for me to WS again, single wielding a Joyeuse. Haven't used it much on HNM level stuff (tried on Omega once or twice, didn't seem to do much of anything).

Quite frankly the whole argument is pointless. Even if DNC is capable of generating enough TP to land Stutter Step/samba/waltz it still has limited role in endgame battle because Stutter steps do not offer sufficient magic accuracy to replace elemental seal, it's doesn't make sense to let DNC feed TP to HNM since your BRD still need to sub BLM for elemental seal and RDM still can't land debuff reliably. In fact the concept of ENII/DB actually makes DNC more appealing assuming the effect of Stutter steps and DB stack.

True, but again, there's no proof that DB is any better than Stutter Step. At least not that I've seen. Seems more to me that people are basing their DB arguments on a blurb from the ever-reliable Otherwiki. I mean, if you've got test results, or have a link to 'em, I've be interested to see...but without that, it's all just speculation.

[Silenka]

I believe it was a fan service to someone who suggested it during a Q&A

I could be wrong but I thought that someone was Theytak of Siren server >.>

I also cannot believe that people are arguing over melee rdm. Didn't we figure out like 5 years ago that it doesn't work too well outside of solo/lowman situations?

[Raineer]

I could be wrong but I thought that someone was Theytak of Siren server >.>

I also cannot believe that people are arguing over melee rdm. Didn't we figure out like 5 years ago that it doesn't work too well outside of solo/lowman situations?

But composure!!!!!




(yes, you're right)

[Melios]

I also cannot believe that people are arguing over melee rdm. Didn't we figure out like 5 years ago that it doesn't work too well outside of solo/lowman situations?

Apparently not since people feel the need to argue the merits of it with Composure/Enpell II being added.

[Tortalius]

this will all come down to the specifics of the JA/Enspells. Lets let the argument sit until then.

[TummieGaruda]

Speaking of which........Cheese Sandwiches..where they a joke? or did they randomly pick a food out of a bowl and just toosed it in there with no effect..cause i honeslty don't see the point of even eating it, i'd rather my character starve o_O

Some guy at Fan Fest 07 wasted a perfect opportunity to ask a legit question...Everyone in attendance was given a piece of paper to ask a question and put it in a box in which SE drew 5-7 questions. One of them asked for them to add a cheese sandwich as a recipe in the game.

[quannum]

Some guy at Fan Fest 07 wasted a perfect opportunity for the panel to say "We aren't telling/We'll get you an answer later/We don't know/the feature you're asking for would take a long time"

ftfy