Hagun vs. Amanomurakumo

[VivixKujata]

So i've heard a lot about SAM's with haguns who say they can outdo an Amanomurakumo SAM.

I myself am upgrading an amano, don't really plan on switching, but i'd like to hear some insight on what Amanomurakumo is like in comparison to hagun.
I do einherjar with a relic SAM, he seems ok but his other gear in comparison to mine is medicore. Since he doesn't talk i can't ask him his opinion.

[Arthars]

omg not again O_O

this never ends

but lets face it. a hagun is a pre-relic you use before you get amano

amano is always >>> than a hagun

however, its like a "little" upgrade, its like the distance between the cloud and heaven.

you will notice the difference, by a "decent" margin

so yes, they may be close, unlike a death scythe VS apocalypse (its like the distance between hell and heaven)

PS: my comparisons come with people with exact gear that use hagun and amano
im not comparing super geared hagun VS gimped geared amano

[BerenTebogo]

Simple answer:

Getting a relic does not make an idiot into a good player. If an idiot upgrades an Amano and plays like their idiot self vs. a well geared and highly skilled player with Hagun, obviously the Hagun will win.

Goes for all relics really. Once upon a time my Kikoku lost by 3.4% to a DRK/SAM with apoc. Does that mean that any NIN can do that? Does it even mean I can do that to probably any other apoc DRK? Hell no. Dude was fucking retarded.

tl;dr: JP shouldn't upgrade relics

[Arthars]

sath that drk/sam is a mithra right? lol

i think i know who!

[BerenTebogo]

No was that hume M in IW - wtf was his name? one who legit used that enchant: haste belt with his apoc

[Arthars]

the name is Sum.........

yea he was using earthern legs etc if im not mistaken lmao

he got a little better now tho, got justice torque and homams

but yea, that doesnt mean he will be better than before lol

dont make your relic cry guys QQ

[BerenTebogo]

Yeah that's the one. Dude was ballllllls.

[VivixKujata]

I'm not going to be disappointed for sure But these SAMs that keep saying they will beat me with their meat cleaver makes me wonder sometimes. After skimming the "Rate your relic weapon" thread I'm pretty sure its not a bad choice though.

And like you say, a bad player with a relic is meh. A good player excels.

[Iskra]

on kujata only ariall could beat you, i never been impressed by any other sam on the server even those with relics

[Drex]

By themselves, Amano >>> Hagun
But that doesn't always mean amano user >>> hagun user, even though it should

[Killkenny]

They won't win if they are equally geared to you. Amano will win in every situation but as the mobs level and defense increases the greater the penalty on Kaiten whereas Gekko will continue to put out high numbers.

On melee damage alone Amano will more than make up the 5% or so you lose in Gekko damage, Triple procs and 20+ acc will again extend its lead over Hagun (this is based on the fact that anything high enough level to start hurting kaiten enough to use gekko you will be able to make full use of the +20acc without capping prematurely).

As for people saying Kaiten sucks on HNM its only partially true. Whenever I have Berserk up on something such as Fafnir or Sky gods my Kaitens average similar numbers to Gekko, with 1 minuet Kaiten starts moving ahead, you just have to pick your WS depending on the buffs you have at the time.

In summary, even on higher level fights where Kaiten loses some of its potency, Amano will still win by a decent margin. The closer you move to merit/ein/limbus level stuff the further Amano pulls ahead.

[D44kpunk]

outside of merits and anything not endgame amano is mainly just DoT, i wouldn't upgrade it expecting epeen numbers on all your daily HNM. it's better than hagun for HNM the longer the fight goes on, in zergs amano isn't that great but SAM was never my ideal choice to go as for zergs anyways so many someone else has different insight.

[Clave]

They won't win if they are equally geared to you. Amano will win in every situation but as the mobs level and defense increases the greater the penalty on Kaiten whereas Gekko will continue to put out high numbers.

On melee damage alone Amano will more than make up the 5% or so you lose in Gekko damage, Triple procs and 20+ acc will again extend its lead over Hagun (this is based on the fact that anything high enough level to start hurting kaiten enough to use gekko you will be able to make full use of the +20acc without capping prematurely).

As for people saying Kaiten sucks on HNM its only partially true. Whenever I have Berserk up on something such as Fafnir or Sky gods my Kaitens average similar numbers to Gekko, with 1 minuet Kaiten starts moving ahead, you just have to pick your WS depending on the buffs you have at the time.

In summary, even on higher level fights where Kaiten loses some of its potency, Amano will still win by a decent margin. The closer you move to merit/ein/limbus level stuff the further Amano pulls ahead.

Correct answer, along with everyone else saying that Amano user doesn't necessarily mean good player.

The other NA Amano user currently on my server is absolutely terrible and I could beat her with a Hagun let alone my Amano.

[Killkenny]

For zergs sam is rarely the job of choice, a drk with some homam and an M kris is easy enough to obtain and will do substaintially more damage than anything that isn't a Kraken Club drk.

If however you don't have drk and an M kris/K club/Ridill, then Amano will do a lot better than Hagun will in certain zergs. For instance I have found my average WS on Bv2 runs with gekko to be fairly low, around 700~ even with attack food, 2x minuet and Berserk, but since obtaining Amano I have found Kaiten will consistently put out 900-1.1k on Bv2. I don't know what it is about v2 in particular that makes Gekko much lower than it is in comparison to Kirin/KV zergs (I am aware he has phanlax that is often on during the fight but it doesn't explain why Kaiten does so well).

For anything you zerg though you will generally be pushing 800+ attack, more with 2hr songs and a cor so Kaiten starts to regain some of the advantage it has on lower level fights. So Amano will improve your sam in zergs also, probably by an amount comparable to the boost it gets in exps parties as opposed to typical HNM fights.

[FailureMidgard]

For zergs sam is rarely the job of choice, a drk with some homam and an M kris is easy enough to obtain and will do substaintially more damage than anything that isn't a Kraken Club drk.

If however you don't have drk and an M kris/K club/Ridill, then Amano will do a lot better than Hagun will in certain zergs. For instance I have found my average WS on Bv2 runs with gekko to be fairly low, around 700~ even with attack food, 2x minuet and Berserk, but since obtaining Amano I have found Kaiten will consistently put out 900-1.1k on Bv2. I don't know what it is about v2 in particular that makes Gekko much lower than it is in comparison to Kirin/KV zergs (I am aware he has phanlax that is often on during the fight but it doesn't explain why Kaiten does so well).

For anything you zerg though you will generally be pushing 800+ attack, more with 2hr songs and a cor so Kaiten starts to regain some of the advantage it has on lower level fights. So Amano will improve your sam in zergs also, probably by an amount comparable to the boost it gets in exps parties as opposed to typical HNM fights.

People should really try Sam/rng for zergs (assuming you're 2hring). It can keep up with/beat a Mkris DRK if played right. Still get blown away by KC, however...

[Killkenny]

It depends on the Zerg. If the zerg is shorter and you have enough buffs to make Sidewinder overtake Gekko/Kaiten then yes.

Anything that lasts beyond 30seconds and Feint is gone you will miss too many WS keep up.

All this talk of Sam zerging reminds me of someone who used to be in my ls, he couldn't get his head around why people don't do Sam/drk more, luckily we kicked him long ago but it still depresses me how stupid some people are.

[FailureMidgard]

It depends on the Zerg. If the zerg is shorter and you have enough buffs to make Sidewinder overtake Gekko/Kaiten then yes.

Anything that lasts beyond 30seconds and Feint is gone you will miss too many WS keep up.

All this talk of Sam zerging reminds me of someone who used to be in my ls, he couldn't get his head around why people don't do Sam/drk more, luckily we kicked him long ago but it still depresses me how stupid some people are.

I disagree, 30sec of sam/rng will outdmg 45sec of sam/x (assuming you have the full buffs).

[Killkenny]

Assuming that by the time feint is up you have blown 2hr, and all JAs and are just meleeing/WSing from that point then the added damage from Sidewinder may keep you ahead for as much as even a minute.

My main problem with sam/rng is that unless you use it for something such as KV where you go for the zerg only, then you are stuck with an inferior SJ for the rest of the event. This would apply to kirin and DL mainly.

[FailureMidgard]

Assuming that by the time feint is up you have blown 2hr, and all JAs and are just meleeing/WSing from that point then the added damage from Sidewinder may keep you ahead for as much as even a minute.

My main problem with sam/rng is that unless you use it for something such as KV where you go for the zerg only, then you are stuck with an inferior SJ for the rest of the event. This would apply to kirin and DL mainly.

Yea, for DL, you either need to switch just for DL, or be there with a bleh SJ for the rest of Dynamis.

But sam/rng really is strong in zergs with proper buffs/debuffs.

[Killkenny]

I guess there is certain stigma attached to it now since the 2h buff made sam/rng obsolete for most situations.

However since reading posts by a sam with relic bow (I believe it was on this board but I've got a suspicion the Salvage Bans may have got him) and that how properly buffed it is the best damage dealer in the game without the need for 2hrs. It makes sense because iirc Namas Arrow generates same enmity as casting dispel and melee attacks from soboro alone won't get you hate unless you melee for an extended period of time on 1 monster. This would I guess enable you to full time hasso and not have to worry about getting hate.

I guess to derail a bit are there any Yoichi sams out there that can provide me with some more insight into WS damage and feasibility (buffs required to make it work).