"The value of relics/mythics"

[Lampoon]

I didn't know SE removed Macros from this game.

[Sylvrdragon]

The thing with Star/Celestial Rings is that the Sapphires can come from an event that you can do daily for dirt cheap (and a fairly easy route). I've seen one from there personally, and heard of another from the same group (minus me) a couple weeks later- and they didn't do it every day. I know Random can be weird like that, but the drop rate isn't THAT horrible, and it's basically free to spam if you can manage to beat it.

If it weren't for screwy playtimes of myself and my friends, I would have 2 Rings and earrings already (and try like hell for the HQs if they exist). Get on it!

[Kenji]

I see a lot of responses, but very few are actually taking the time to read. Nowhere did I say Yagrush was a bad weapon. In fact, I said it was a nice weapon. Where we differ on opinion, is exactly how much *value* the weapon has. Please try to keep this in mind, if you decide to respond.

Sorry, but this isn't the "real world", this is FFXI. I hope you can understand that there is leeway for the "fun" factor or the "Let me do what I want with my gil" factor. In addition, the benefits of a LS having Yagrush outweighs the LS having another G-Horn or Aegis PLD. Even if they don't have any those in the LS, it's still Sai's gil. Quite frankly cost-benefit analysis is a ridiculously stupid point to bring up in this conversation.

Take a look at thread title again, and try to tell me again why the idea of a cost-benefit analysis isn't applicable. There's always a subjective, personal aspect to value. But there are also concrete valuables that contribute, that can be measured. And a value can be determined off that.

Maybe he doesn't want to level another job or feels that he'll get more enjoyment out of Mythic WHM than other classes. This mythic weapon clearly has more return value than any of the other ones we have seen.

Oh, I'd say PUP mythic blows it out of the water. So the idea is hardly "clear." And we still have yet to hear about other mythics.

But you even saying that, shows that you do see mythics on a sliding scale, with some better than others. That's the same point I've been making.

By your expectations, Sai should:

1. Level DRK/BRD/PLD (Get the "Best" returns on the weapon v cost), which in itself costs a truck ton of money and time

You set up a nice straw man, and I can tell you had a lot of fun knocking down your set-up argument. Nowhere did I say Sai should level another job. Generally people level a job because they enjoy it. And I'd expect people on this forum to have a penchant for getting jobs well geared (que the gimp/wtf thread and lolNQAmemet comments). So we expect people to well-gear the jobs they do level.

Question: What do you think is better? A ghorn or a yagrush?

This is supposed to be an elitist forum, yes?

What has more value than a Yagrush? I'm really curious to hear this one.

As I've said, a ghorn for one. Do you disagree?

You started out well, but devolved into ad hominem with the rest of your post, so not gonna bother to reply to it. If you actually want to discuss things on a discussion forum, then I'm sure you can manage a better reply.

I will say this: each Relic and Mythic does add a benefit. The arguments being thrown at me, are along the lines of "the weapon provides a benefit, ergo it has value being upgraded; who cares what that cost is? What does the cost matter?" If you seriously believe this, then you should be okay with the costs SE has set for relics and mythics.

dude are you serious? he/she said they play WHM the most, they obviously like the job the most. there's a reason people (who don't have their heads up their asses) always say do whatever makes things the most fun for you - this guy loves WHM so he made the smart choice for a mythic. do you have PLD or BRD leveled, and do you have an aegis or the horn? if you don't then why don't you go level them and upgrade one of those relics. that's exactly what you're saying to him; and if you do have one of those, then what exactly are you trying to argue with Sai for?

you aren't kidding, if anything you sound jealous. maybe you were just fooling around, i don't know, the tone of crap gets lost through text. i agree though, congrats on the club!

I can understand how you might feel that way, but I do enjoy getting alternate viewpoints out there. Judging by some people who would rather plug their ears (lolblacklist) then hear a different opinion... well, it confirms my low opinions on humans in general. Can't espect countries to communicate and understand each other, if people at the bottom won't either.

Here's something to think about: Debate and discussion isn't about turning people to your viewpoint. It's not about who's right and who's wrong. It's about understanding. And sadly, many feel very threatened by the existence of a viewpoint that is not their own, or of the clique they they belong to for self-comfort.

The general idea of what I've been getting at, is that I don't feel it's worth the price, given other options available. A straight forward rational viewpoint. But apparently, that viewpoint is somehow threatening to groupthink.

[Yugl]

Take a look at thread title again, and try to tell me again why the idea of a cost-benefit analysis isn't applicable. There's always a subjective, personal aspect to value. But there are also concrete valuables that contribute, that can be measured. And a value can be determined off that.

Why doesn't cost-benefit analysis apply here? Come on Kenji, even you must realize that it doesn't account for externalities, which I mentioned. But lets say I go by your argument. What does a minuscule amount of MP and +2hMP have to offer a WHM with already decked out gear? Almost nothing. At a certain point, all this HQ gear you're suggesting he obtain has diminishing returns. Beyond that point, you can pretty much floor most of "benefit" from said items to zero.

Yagrush on the other hand, actually has a big enough impact on WHM as to change it's play style. In Einherjar, where status effects are common and detrimental, a WHM with Yagrush should play differently than a WHM without Yagrush. They can afford to remove status effects off players more frequently instead of playing the "spam card" and just waiting for the wave to finish. This doesn't even include the fact that a WHM with Yagrush can overcome some of the SCH > WHM stigma since it the individual *can* do AoE -na spells.

Oh, I'd say PUP mythic blows it out of the water. So the idea is hardly "clear." And we still have yet to hear about other mythics.

No one invites PUP, so by your own cost-benefit analysis argument, the costs vastly outweigh the benefits.

But you even saying that, shows that you do see mythics on a sliding scale, with some better than others. That's the same point I've been making.

You're making it on the wrong mythic. That's what everyone is telling you!

Question: What do you think is better? A ghorn or a yagrush?

That depends on what your LS has. If the likelihood of you being on WHM even with G-Horn is significantly higher than that of being on BRD, then Yagrush does outweigh G-Horn. Hell, if you play WHM more than BRD in general, you're likely to get more out of your relic. The chances of that being true within the LS however, is contingent on amount of BRDs with G-Horns. Hell, even the events you do determine which one is better. As I mentioned earlier, if Einherjar is one of the LS's main events, you might actually benefit more from Yagrush.

This is supposed to be an elitist forum, yes?

No, because if it were, you would have no place here. Elitist isn't a synonym for retard. Elite is picking up a damn Yagrush for your WHM.

[rezn0r]

so basically everyone in the game should upgrade the horn if they have the money and means to do so, anything else would be stupid? right kenji?

kenji, if someone has whm pup pld brd & sam leveled, but they honestly love the sam job and pretty much only want to play that to enjoy the game, and they want to upgrade one and only one relic/mythic weapon, which would you tell them to pick? if their linkshell already had a horn, which would you tell them to pick?

[Ker]

so basically everyone in the game should upgrade the horn if they have the money and means to do so, anything else would be stupid? right kenji?

As bard who's in final stage I'll say Kenji full of shit Anyone should do what Relic/Mythic they want

[dejet]

>.>. easy answer they are all *good* and worth the gil. the mythics however do not add to what we made the game. we have made it into a sorta blitzkrieg. and the weps do not really add much to that. it seems that they add more to long fights or to solo play.

outside of a few that is. Pup, war seems to be OK for maybe HNM with the higher berserk attack maybe. the monk might add to zerg fights if you really want to bring a monk or have room.

whm just godlike aoe na never ending? its worth more then that if you ask me. (even
more so if it works on other pts much like sch)

edit: i hate to be a dick, but the staff relic should not be upgraded really its a lot gil for a toy that does not add ANYTHING at all to the job. even the weaker of the myths add something even if its just a little something. the staff does no such thing...
edit2: >.> started to think... lol the staff might even have its use. smn brings its tp wing or blm brings a tp wing uses it runs in pokes the mob you have 10mp/tick so ya even this fits into *something* really the dd relics add a lot to almost any job. they all add high ass attack or acc. the mage one(staff) does the same but a mage even with +20 acc cant hit the mob lol

well the nin one might add nothing at all will find out someday i guess.

edit 3! (most edits by me b/c i keep looking back sayin holy shit what was i thinking i left this out!)best wep in the game if you ask me pld relic/Ghorn> whm mythic but they all add something to the game i would never get a horn myself mostly because you are a MP hore then and if you ask me thats not worth the gil, fun has to be factored in lol if you plan to spend all that time to get something you hate its not worth the gil no matter what. even if the shit added deathga to every hit and KOed all the mobs around ya. if it makes shit less fun its not worth the gil lol

[Kenji]

Why doesn't cost-benefit analysis apply here? Come on Kenji, even you must realize that it doesn't account for externalities, which I mentioned. But lets say I go by your argument. What does a minuscule amount of MP and +2hMP have to offer a WHM with already decked out gear? Almost nothing. At a certain point, all this HQ gear you're suggesting he obtain has diminishing returns. Beyond that point, you can pretty much floor most of "benefit" from said items to zero.

While the benefit of MP, MND, and +2hMP may be small, the cost is much lower as well. The cost:benefit ratio is greater. It's similiar if you compare a light staff vs. a Star Ring. The cost:benefit ration of the light staff is greater. People do this all the time when comparing the upgrade from NQ to HQ. I thought it was standard knowledge by now.

Yagrush on the other hand, actually has a big enough impact on WHM as to change it's play style. In Einherjar, where status effects are common and detrimental, a WHM with Yagrush should play differently than a WHM without Yagrush. They can afford to remove status effects off players more frequently instead of playing the "spam card" and just waiting for the wave to finish. This doesn't even include the fact that a WHM with Yagrush can overcome some of the SCH > WHM stigma since it the individual *can* do AoE -na spells.

In Einherjar, a WHM can't spam spells, or they run out of mp fairly fast. They have to learn to ration their mp for the important things (unless you're in a party with ghorn brd, cor, and rdm). A WHM spamming na or erase to remove spells that are equally spammed, will find themselves quickly running out of mp for negligble benefit. Most WHMs save MP for cures, as a dead melee is more of a detriment to a group than a melee with attack down. It's also a matter of trying not to be in the middle of a cast when someone starts taking lots of damage.

There is also the hate factor; I find Curaga's (especially a penury Curaga IV) to be an extremely efficient way to keep a party healed(often not needing to rest at all during a einherjar run, despite not having any outside refresh from time to time). I'd pull hate a lot more if I were spamming na spells as well, regardless of -enmity. Not every status effect needs to be removed right this second. By spacing them out, the hate-over-time is less.

No one invites PUP, so by your own cost-benefit analysis argument, the costs vastly outweigh the benefits.

And it's a shame, too. I'm sure some PUP's here can speak up, and point to some threads where it's shown that PUPs are indeed a fairly powerful class. There were a couple of threads in the standard forum I remember reading. PUP's issue is a community perception one. It'll take time and good PUP's to get rid of the stigma.

You're making it on the wrong mythic. That's what everyone is telling you!

I fail to see how, spending 90 mil to do something I can already do, is somehow a good thing. Essentially spending it on nothing. Wanna give me 90 mil? I won't actually do anything for you that you can't already do, but hey, you'll feel better about yourself!

I get the feeling people haven't partied with a good SCH before.

That depends on what your LS has. If the likelihood of you being on WHM even with G-Horn is significantly higher than that of being on BRD, then Yagrush does outweigh G-Horn. Hell, if you play WHM more than BRD in general, you're likely to get more out of your relic. The chances of that being true within the LS however, is contingent on amount of BRDs with G-Horns. Hell, even the events you do determine which one is better. As I mentioned earlier, if Einherjar is one of the LS's main events, you might actually benefit more from Yagrush.

You're trying to side-step the question. Outside factors are irrelevant, or consider them equal, if you will. We're merely comparing two items based upon what they bring by themselves.

Or you can ask any melee what they prefer: Do you want buffed march and madrigal? Or do you want that poison removed? BLMs, do you want an extra potent ballad, or would you rather rest more?

From where I'm sitting, one item is vastly more versatile at the very least.

so basically everyone in the game should upgrade the horn if they have the money and means to do so, anything else would be stupid? right kenji?

You would be reading my argument incorrectly. It's based on a number of factors, of which one is the jobs someone has leveled, and thus the comparison of the options available. If I had BRD leveled, a ghorn is what I'd do. I believe the words are "fucking broken" by reading the "rate your relic" thread in standard.

kenji, if someone has whm pup pld brd & sam leveled, but they honestly love the sam job and pretty much only want to play that to enjoy the game, and they want to upgrade one and only one relic/mythic weapon, which would you tell them to pick? if their linkshell already had a horn, which would you tell them to pick?

Understand that we can't argue subjectives, and thus we are left with the objectives to debate. Also, I value my linkshell members, and so support them on whichever job they need me for each specific event. While it may be fun to play whatever I want, I won't dick over members and be selfish.

Having said that, let me answer your question: I'd say that PUP weapon, PLD shield, ghorn and SAM gkt are all valuable items. A linkshell can always use another ghorn brd, too. Most events have at least 2 brds, and usually more to do brd rotations. That's how a lot of LS's beat the extra nasty Tier 3 einherjars. Not due to status removal, but due to brds.

If that doesn't show the comparative power levels, I don't know what else will.

Edit: Left a sentence hanging

[Ashira]

Think they all blocked the ability to see your posts.

[Yugl]

While the benefit of MP, MND, and +2hMP may be small, the cost is much lower as well. The cost:benefit ratio is greater. It's similiar if you compare a light staff vs. a Star Ring. The cost:benefit ration of the light staff is greater. People do this all the time when comparing the upgrade from NQ to HQ. I thought it was standard knowledge by now.

Light Staff is better in terms of cost AND benefit. Yagrush has more cost, but a much greater benefit than +1hMP. It's obvious that you know nothing about cost-benefit analysis even though you preach it beyond belief. Give me one situation where +1hMP and a bit more MP will outweigh the effects of Yagrush? Better yet, why don't you give us an idea of where +1hMP and +20MP stands in the grand picture, because you make it seem like such a big deal then belittle the effects of Yagrush. Twisted much?

In Einherjar, a WHM can't spam spells, or they run out of mp fairly fast. They have to learn to ration their mp for the important things (unless you're in a party with ghorn brd, cor, and rdm). A WHM spamming na or erase to remove spells that are equally spammed, will find themselves quickly running out of mp for negligble benefit. Most WHMs save MP for cures, as a dead melee is more of a detriment to a group than a melee with attack down. It's also a matter of trying not to be in the middle of a cast when someone starts taking lots of damage.

Have you even done a T3 Einherjar with Leeches or W ivres? Have you even done T3 Einherjar in general? It's not spammed to the extent that you're trying to imagine it to be, but it occurs enough to make it unworthy of Erase 4x spamming, especially in a place with high lag. In most cases, mages will just leave the status on the melee. Guess what? That means it takes even more time to kill the mobs (These ATT downs are no joke!), which means more time/MP spent curing and reapplying haste. That also means more MP spent resleeping mobs for the BLM. The fact is that a WHM with Yagrush can afford to remove status effects more often than a WHM without Yagrush. In addition, they're more likely to do so.

There is also the hate factor; I find Curaga's (especially a penury Curaga IV) to be an extremely efficient way to keep a party healed(often not needing to rest at all during a einherjar run, despite not having any outside refresh from time to time). I'd pull hate a lot more if I were spamming na spells as well, regardless of -enmity. Not every status effect needs to be removed right this second. By spacing them out, the hate-over-time is less.

What type of fight would you be spamming -na spells where you aren't killing the mobs within a few seconds? How many scenarios in FFXI are there where hate isn't solid, the fight is dragged out, ailments are so common that the WHM is spamming -na spells, and waiting a *few seconds* to -na someone will keep hate off the WHM? Not enough to justify saying Yagrush's benefit is limited.

No one has said that every status ailment needs to be removed instantly, but if it is serious enough to be need removal, then why would you want to wait to perform four -na spells when you can cast it once? If those few seconds of waiting between -na spells makes a difference, then you need better tanks/melees.

And it's a shame, too. I'm sure some PUP's here can speak up, and point to some threads where it's shown that PUPs are indeed a fairly powerful class. There were a couple of threads in the standard forum I remember reading. PUP's issue is a community perception one. It'll take time and good PUP's to get rid of the stigma.

That doesn't matter. If we're going by your precious cost-benefit analysis argument, then WHM>PUP since you'll be able to use it. You can't use PUP Mythic if your LS always has you on WHM!

I fail to see how, spending 90 mil to do something I can already do, is somehow a good thing. Essentially spending it on nothing. Wanna give me 90 mil? I won't actually do anything for you that you can't already do, but hey, you'll feel better about yourself!

You can hit multiple people with ailment removals at once already? Wow, you must be an awesome WHM!

I get the feeling people haven't partied with a good SCH before.

This is WHM not SCH. Get it yet? With Yagrush, the benefits of a SCH over WHM is limited to AoE SS, Phalanx, and En-spells (Which really aren't that great).

You're trying to side-step the question. Outside factors are irrelevant, or consider them equal, if you will. We're merely comparing two items based upon what they bring by themselves.

They're not irrelevant or equal in both cases. If you're on WHM most of the time, you're not getting the same benefit from Yagrush as you would if you were on BRD all the time.

Or you can ask any melee what they prefer: Do you want buffed march and madrigal? Or do you want that poison removed? BLMs, do you want an extra potent ballad, or would you rather rest more?

March + Madrigal v Poison? Nice comparison. How about we be more realistic and say a buffed up March + Minuet v March + Minuet AND Stona/Paralyna/Cursna (Taurus)/Erase. Lets face it Kenji, you had to rig that scenario to make a point.

[Xno Kappa]

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...trollbgsk8.jpg

[Demosthenes11]

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...trollbgsk8.jpg

*retard

when kenji showed up however many months ago and spouted his bullshit about Kclub being an exploit on AV I thought everyone would be smart enough to tell the guy to shut the fuck up and ignore him

guess not

[D44kpunk]

From the RMT perspective it is in no way worth it. Just thought I'd throw something different out there.

[S N K]

God dammit Yugl stop replying to this moron.

[dejet]

>.> is there a blist where you do not have to see anything he says...

[FailureMidgard]

Or you can ask any melee what they prefer: Do you want buffed march and madrigal? Or do you want that poison removed? BLMs, do you want an extra potent ballad, or would you rather rest more?

What? You're talking about the extra ~.2-.3% from the skill? I think I'd prefer the poison removed. More importantly, I'd prefer the Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Bind, Attk Down, Str Down, etc removed.

Horn is great for mages, don't pretend like melee care about a GHorn bard vs another bard.

[Issac]

>.> is there a blist where you do not have to see anything he says...

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/profi...?do=ignorelist

[Ashira]

What? You're talking about the extra ~.2-.3% from the skill? I think I'd prefer the poison removed. More importantly, I'd prefer the Paralyze, Slow, Blind, Bind, Attk Down, Str Down, etc removed.

Horn is great for mages, don't pretend like melee care about a GHorn bard vs another bard.

More importantly, the skill buffs come in tiers... once you hit like, +12 or 14 skill or whatever, you have to deck out completely nuts to even hit the next tier anyway...

Close to being the most ridiculous point in the whole argument, methinks.

[Conker]

Kenji = fucking crybaby, dont listen to this pos grats on your club!

[Eleven19]

I like Samurai.

I'm upgrading the Samurai Relic.